PAF locked on 9 shoot only two...PAF official....0n 27 Feb....

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Would you like to elaborate on your statement in detail please on both points.

@MastanKhan's point is that the PAF should've taken the fight to the IAF when it had the chance to do so. If there were supposedly 9 planes on lock, then it should've shot them down. Not only that, but while the IAF was in panic, there should have been a plan involving the PA to make a push across the LoC and, in turn, actually make Kashmir into a disputed territory in reality (i.e., Pakistan taking big chunks of IOK -- which would then force India to appeal to the UN and, as a result, open its books on its treatment of Kashmir). Finally, if the Kashmiri people are agitated, then a Pakistani entry would've been embraced with open arms, leading to a popular revolt ala 1971 in E. Pak.

Instead, Pakistan took its foot of the gas pedal, and has not only given India time to analyze and correct its faults in the air skirmish, but fully push ahead with legally annexing Kashmir.

The world knows full of India's shadiness in Kashmir (as it does re: Israel in Palestine), but in realpolitik, the only things that make nations move is war. If Pakistan had forcibly taken some key territory in IOK, then the world would be forced to address the issue, and Pakistan can line up every IOK Kashmiri to bear witness to India's treatment of them. Pakistan might have even lucked out with a few countries accepting Pakistani takeover of disputed IOK areas, which then sets a precedent for others (years or decades down the line) to follow suit. Pretty much what Israel did to get its hands on Jerusalem.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Throughout this whole discussion---posters are forgetting that the order to shoot down the aircraft did come---15 seconds too late---.

Which means---that all of you guys talking abut war---escalation of war---missiles pointed at pakistan---we don't want war---war is not the answer---is all bull crap---.

The decision showed that the encounter was ill prepared---the pilots were not given the full authority as was necessary for the strike mission---.

It also shows that Paf heirarchy had forgotten how to prepare for a strike because there had been no air war with the enemy for a long time---.

Paf had also not researched the world reaction against the enemy for a longtime---.

Their analysts were living in a false world---. The world had become tired of indian fraud---. Senior citizens of the world were the biggest victims of the fraud---there was more hate in the general public of the world against india at that time---.

The attack by india across the border was a declared attack---in advance---it was a DARE attack. Modi govt had clearly stated that the strike was coming---and hey already stated where they would hit---.

 

[The Accountant]

From where this 15 seconds figure came from?

Pilot always have authority to shoot as per peace time rules of engagement. Pilot only ask for approval if they want to violate rules of engagement.

Unless its an all out out war pilots cannot have blanket authority otherwise mistake of a single pilot can result in destruction of whole countries. Didn't we similar event happening but Russia and Turkey where Turkish pilots shot a land attack Russian plane?

Hi,

Throughout this whole discussion---posters are forgetting that the order to shoot down the aircraft did come---15 seconds too late---.

Which means---that all of you guys talking abut war---escalation of war---missiles pointed at pakistan---we don't want war---war is not the answer---is all bull crap---.

The decision showed that the encounter was ill prepared---the pilots were not given the full authority as was necessary for the strike mission---.

It also shows that Paf heirarchy had forgotten how to prepare for a strike because there had been no air war with the enemy for a long time---.

Paf had also not researched the world reaction against the enemy for a longtime---.

Their analysts were living in a false world---. The world had become tired of indian fraud---. Senior citizens of the world were the biggest victims of the fraud---there was more hate in the general public of the world against india at that time---.

The attack by india across the border was a declared attack---in advance---it was a DARE attack. Modi govt had clearly stated that the strike was coming---and hey already stated where they would hit---.

 

[raja786]

@MastanKhan's point is that the PAF should've taken the fight to the IAF when it had the chance to do so. If there were supposedly 9 planes on lock, then it should've shot them down. Not only that, but while the IAF was in panic, there should have been a plan involving the PA to make a push across the LoC and, in turn, actually make Kashmir into a disputed territory in reality (i.e., Pakistan taking big chinks of IOK -- which would then force India to appeal to the UN and, as a result, open its books on its treatment of Kashmir). Finally, if the Kashmiri people are agitated, then a Pakistani entry would've been embraced with open arms, leading to a popular revolt ala 1971 in E. Pak.

Instead, Pakistan took its foot of the gas pedal, and has not only given India time to analyze and correct its faults in the air skirmish, but fully push ahead with legally annexing Kashmir.

My brother its easier said then done, do you have any slight idea what was happening right after 26th and why indians had there guards down. Idians were under impression we will not respond because there were few forces at play. It's not matter of downing 1/2 or 9. It was matter of self esteem and recognition.
One must be living in fools world to take IOK chunks and indian would sleep finger in there @$$.
That would have been full fledge war leading to madness. We cant sustain full scale war economically neither politically. Now we are on road to build our narrative around the world that how fascist Modi regime is and we are quite successful in that.
@MastanKhan Kashmir wasn't in our grasps to hand it over to Indians in platter. And it's not easy to swallow Kashmir. Theres is timeline for everything and Kashmir,s time will come not just yet.

Hi,

Throughout this whole discussion---posters are forgetting that the order to shoot down the aircraft did come---15 seconds too late---.

Which means---that all of you guys talking abut war---escalation of war---missiles pointed at pakistan---we don't want war---war is not the answer---is all bull crap---.

The decision showed that the encounter was ill prepared---the pilots were not given the full authority as was necessary for the strike mission---.

It also shows that Paf heirarchy had forgotten how to prepare for a strike because there had been no air war with the enemy for a long time---.

Paf had also not researched the world reaction against the enemy for a longtime---.

Their analysts were living in a false world---. The world had become tired of indian fraud---. Senior citizens of the world were the biggest victims of the fraud---there was more hate in the general public of the world against india at that time---.

The attack by india across the border was a declared attack---in advance---it was a DARE attack. Modi govt had clearly stated that the strike was coming---and hey already stated where they would hit---.

Oh please stop winging. In one hand you say war is not good and on second breath you all out war. Your posts dont make sense at all. Dont play on both ends.

 

[MastanKhan]

My brother its easier said then done, do you have any slight idea what was happening right after 26th and why indians had there guards down. Idians were under impression we will not respond because there were few forces at play. It's not matter of downing 1/2 or 9. It was matter of self esteem and recognition.
One must be living in fools world to take IOK chunks and indian would sleep finger in there @$$.
That would have been full fledge war leading to madness. We cant sustain full scale war economically neither politically. Now we are on road to build our narrative around the world that how fascist Modi regime is and we are quite successful in that.
@MastanKhan Kashmir wasn't in our grasps to hand it over to Indians in platter. And it's not easy to swallow Kashmir. Theres is timeline for everything and Kashmir,s time will come not just yet.

Hi,

I felt the fear---it was running thick in the air---you could cut the air with a knife---.

India cannot and could not afford a financial crisis that a war would have brought in---.

I would not go as far as military incursion into kashmir---but would have definitely smashed the enemy air force in the arena---.

Yemen strike force looks more and more beautiful now---. We would have never reached this desperate circumstance if we had build up a force of 150 K troops in that region---.

If you don't see the difference between downing 1 or 2 or downing 9---then the discussion is not for you---.

Please excuse yourself because the conversation might be irritating your feelings---.

 

[Mace]

Well the Viper was touching his ceiling, yet still sitting undetected under him. I'm aware that it CAN fly higher and faster, and it did that after its RWR kicked in and it ran away.

Even if what you say is true, it painfully only highlights powerlessness of PAF against India’s Mig25 - that’s for a grand total of 25 odd hopeless years (1981 - 2006) for PAF.

9 out of 9 would have been great news

But 2 was still a good outcome

9 locked if true and one brought down.

God knows how many PAF aircrafts were locked by IAF.

 

[Mugwop]

Even if what you say is true, it painfully only highlights powerlessness of PAF against India’s Mig25 - that’s for a grand total of 25 odd hopeless years (1981 - 2006) for PAF.



9 locked if true and one brought down.

God knows how many PAF aircrafts were locked by IAF.

How many did iaf shoot down?

 

[kursed]

India has $400 odd billion USD in the kitty, should Pakistan had opted for a full blown war. While we were asking for a IMF program.

That and emergency munition reserves would have landed in India before you were able to say hello!

The above talk reminds me of the mindset behind Kargil war. And we know how that ended up. Some folks just refuse to learn. You guys talk China all day but refuse to learn a damn good thing from how they’ve waged their ‘war’ and ‘war preparedness’, still stuck in the medieval mindset.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Even if what you say is true, it painfully only highlights powerlessness of PAF against India’s Mig25 - that’s for a grand total of 25 odd hopeless years (1981 - 2006) for PAF.

PAF did the same thing with its F-104 from 1960 to 1980s.
IAF could only go as far as Islamabad with its Mig-25 which is only 80 KM from Indian border where as PAF F-104 went as far away as Agra which is 800km away from border.

 

[Aasimkhan]

Dear Eagle..please explain a little for idiot like me..

what would be the result in case of escalation ladder if "Wng Cmd.Abhinandon Vertheman" was killed in action inside Azad Kashmir with MiG-21BISON? should that give "Escalation ladder" Away? would that be of grave consequence? would that make India fire Brahmos? and in return we would nuke them as per "Supposed" escalation Ladder.

If what is implied in the scenarios you have posted...why need a fighter sweep if Strike Package did not intrude LOC? no body even 16 x Su-30MKIs at the border would be able to stop SOWs landing in rajouri or narian.

You need fighter sweep to clear the airspace for 100% bombs on target "which was the mission" and if you tell me 4 x aircraft standing CAP was not a threat to be shot at...then what else would be for Fighter sweep.

I have been given impression that pilots were on-leash what to shoot and what not to shoot..do i understand it properly

DOnt use sentences starting from IFs and BUTs, COULD, WOULD etc (e.g. if auntie had bals she would have been an uncle). Eagle has done a very realistic and pragmatic analysis. IF it had happened then what WOULD have happened is pointless to look back and comment. Luxury of hind sight analysis while sitting in your cozy drawing room is not available to a pilot sitting in a cockpit of a fighter plane flying over enemy territory.

Well the Viper was touching his ceiling, yet still sitting undetected under him. I'm aware that it CAN fly higher and faster, and it did that after its RWR kicked in and it ran away.

Whatever you are saying is possible but not logical or probable. Whenever a MIG 25 enters an air space it does at 90000 feet plus height and mach 3 plus speed. The rumour is that it could beat most of the missile of that time when it was built. It holds 19 world records of performance. F16 was neither designed for such performance nor ever used. What you are claiming is nothing short of a miracle (but i strongly believe that if any air force can pull a miracle its PAF).

 

[MastanKhan]

Like in world as a whole, you'll see many different types of people in Pakistan too. Some childish or knee-jerk type people keep repeating nuke threats to India if the latter attacks Pakistan. But in the circles that really matter things seem totally different. You don't see much nuclear rhetoric from them. Rather, whenever they say anything, they offer a professional, realistic, and balanced analysis of the prevailing situation. While they try their best to deal with the worst possible situation (meaning a devastating exchange of nukes between the two countries), they seriously strive for giving a real bloody nose to the enemy even in the conventional sphere. And 27/2 has proved that.

If any thing, Pak strike on Indian formations on 27/2 proves that Pak is more than confident to give a devastating blow if need arises. Pak dominated the skies on that day, spared the life of Indian military high command, and waited for Indian 'retaliation' that never came out. Rather Modi resorted to threatening missile attack on Pak cities and was then forced to go and hide in his hole when told of a harsh response from Pakistan. Subsequently Indians were threatening to abandon their no-first-use nuke policy (which is a hoax to us all Pakistanis in any case). Finally Indians resorted to show their muscle at the navel front. That too brought a deep disgrace too Indians when one of their submarines was forced to float up (analogous to hands up in land battles) close to Pak territorial waters. Again the sub was spared by Pakistanis. That shows a solid confidence and their trust in their conventional abilities. I am sure if Indians had a similar opportunity (i.e. least likely in any case), Indians would have either destroyed or forced the sub to their naval base.

I am really sure that Indians would resort to nuclear blackmail next time after Modi's stupidity forces him to launch another 'sergical strike' against Pakistan and then hits Modi ash real hard.

Hi,

No---you won't see people like those in the world---. Pakistanis are a totally different people---.

The belong to a society called " Oral Society ".

 

[Aasimkhan]

Hi

pakistan gave india what it wanted on a platter—-ie Kashmir—-.

Paf and pakistan fell right into the trap.

You speak as if Kashmir was in pocket of Pakistan and we gave it to India. You know nothing about warfare so stop throwing spanners in the works.

Hi,

Throughout this whole discussion---posters are forgetting that the order to shoot down the aircraft did come---15 seconds too late---.

Which means---that all of you guys talking abut war---escalation of war---missiles pointed at pakistan---we don't want war---war is not the answer---is all bull crap---.

The decision showed that the encounter was ill prepared---the pilots were not given the full authority as was necessary for the strike mission---.

It also shows that Paf heirarchy had forgotten how to prepare for a strike because there had been no air war with the enemy for a long time---.

Paf had also not researched the world reaction against the enemy for a longtime---.

Their analysts were living in a false world---. The world had become tired of indian fraud---. Senior citizens of the world were the biggest victims of the fraud---there was more hate in the general public of the world against india at that time---.

The attack by india across the border was a declared attack---in advance---it was a DARE attack. Modi govt had clearly stated that the strike was coming---and hey already stated where they would hit---.

Sometimes I like your BS but not this time. Each and every sentence you have written has been proven wrong by brave pilots of PAF on ground.

 

[The Accountant]

DOnt use sentences starting from IFs and BUTs, COULD, WOULD etc (e.g. if auntie had bals she would have been an uncle). Eagle has done a very realistic and pragmatic analysis. IF it had happened then what WOULD have happened is pointless to look back and comment. Luxury of hind sight analysis while sitting in your cozy drawing room is not available to a pilot sitting in a cockpit of a fighter plane flying over enemy territory.


Whatever you are saying is possible but not logical or probable. Whenever a MIG 25 enters an air space it does at 90000 feet plus height and mach 3 plus speed. The rumour is that it could beat most of the missile of that time when it was built. It holds 19 world records of performance. F16 was neither designed for such performance nor ever used. What you are claiming is nothing short of a miracle (but i strongly believe that if any air force can pull a miracle its PAF).

Mach 3 is the maximum speed mig 25 could attain. You need to undeestand that top speed of the aircraft are the max speeds that can be achieved for short period of time in emergency only otherwise it will destroy the engine and airframe. So most of the time aircraft fly at cruise speed which is sub sonic without afyer burners engaged.

Do u really think that indians had such a big edge even during kargil war and didnt took advantage of it ? Whereas PAF was sleeping for 25 years ?

 

[Aasimkhan]

Mach 3 is the maximum speed mig 25 could attain. You need to undeestand that top speed of the aircraft are the max speeds that can be achieved for short period of time in emergency only otherwise it will destroy the engine and airframe. So most of the time aircraft fly at cruise speed which is sub sonic without afyer burners engaged.

Do u really think that indians had such a big edge even during kargil war and didnt took advantage of it ? Whereas PAF was sleeping for 25 years ?

I cant teach you aerodynamics and aircraft designing or Air Tactics here on this forum. To make is easy for you to understand by design Mig 25 is a poor dog fighter unlike F16 which is very good at it. On the other hand in speed and altitude F16 cannot catch Mig 21 (F16 has a ceiling of 55000 feet, Mig can fly at 100000 feet plus, F16 max speed is 2.2 mach, Mig 25 3.2 mach). A Mig 25 will never enter Pakistan where it can be caught by planes inferior in speed and altitude but superior in agility. Your logic about top speed is true but is it only true for Mig 25 or does it apply to all planes in general ?

Did you know the post Islamic Egyptians would still offer young virgins to the Nile as scapegoats to save Cairo and their trade from floodings?


They don't want a decisive battle with the enemy, don't want peace with them either then what else should I get from this lame sorry excuse of an approach? @MastanKhan @Mangus Ortus Novem





OK!

Where's our development money? Spending all of it again to make another metro so some cosmopolitans can jerk their sense of aesthetics off?

Can you quote the source of your comment, "post Islamic Egyptians would still offer young virgins to the Nile as scapegoats to save Cairo"
Even if it is true it has no relation with the topic. Stop confusing others and dont detract them from topic.

Mach 3 is the maximum speed mig 25 could attain. You need to undeestand that top speed of the aircraft are the max speeds that can be achieved for short period of time in emergency only otherwise it will destroy the engine and airframe. So most of the time aircraft fly at cruise speed which is sub sonic without afyer burners engaged.

Do u really think that indians had such a big edge even during kargil war and didnt took advantage of it ? Whereas PAF was sleeping for 25 years ?

And by the way Mach 3 is not maxi,u, speed it could attain, its 3.2 . After SR71 Black Bird Mig25 Foxbat is worlds fastest and highest (near space) flying aircraft.

 

[The Accountant]

I cant teach you aerodynamics and aircraft designing or Air Tactics here on this forum. To make is easy for you to understand by design Mig 25 is a poor dog fighter unlike F16 which is very good at it. On the other hand in speed and altitude F16 cannot catch Mig 21 (F16 has a ceiling of 55000 feet, Mig can fly at 100000 feet plus, F16 max speed is 2.2 mach, Mig 25 3.2 mach). A Mig 25 will never enter Pakistan where it can be caught by planes inferior in speed and altitude but superior in agility. Your logic about top speed is true but is it only true for Mig 25 or does it apply to all planes in general ?


Can you quote the source of your comment, "post Islamic Egyptians would still offer young virgins to the Nile as scapegoats to save Cairo"
Even if it is true it has no relation with the topic. Stop confusing others and dont detract them from topic.

Who are you to teach me aerodynamics and aircraft designing ? How many aircraft you have designed ?

Yes limitation of top speed applies to all aircraft but your claim that Mig 25 entered Pakistani airspace at Mach 3 is stupid and unrealistic. Furthermore, your claim that Mig 25 could not be taken down by F16 is also stupid and unrealistic.

There were different tactics prepared to counter mig 25 and one of was to fly under the Mig 25 straight up and loose the side winder at maximum height. Having difference of 13 kms (between max altitude of both aircraft) and with range of 19 kms there was a possibility that f16 can take down mig 25. However, to achieve this F16 has to come close to Mig undetected which was really difficult and whenever PAF tried to engage Mig 25 they leave the area. It was never the case that Mig 25 was flying freely in Pakistani airspace and PAF was watching it over the radars. They did violations but never accepted the challenge which is was common before arrival of BVR in sub-continent.