Paf Is Run By Fighter Mafia Jocks---Kaiser Tufail Is Wrong

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Hi,

that is what I have been saying for the longest---Paf has been hijacked by the fighter pilot mafia---and they are wrong when they say that will deny air superiority to IAF at this time---right now---they don't have the numbers----.

I agree that the PAF does not have the numbers to deny the IAF air superiority, but with that said, how would you expect the PAF to field bombers (safely and for any extended duration) if they can't at least keep parity with the IAF in the skies?

These bombers are going to be sitting ducks without the PAF holding its own against the IAF in air superiority.

 

[Selous]

Hi,

Absolutely---that has been the scourage of all the air forces for a century now---pro-active air forces have come out of that mindset---the Gulf War 1 changed the mindset of all the players in the game for the western forces---to such an extreme end that an air force with the likes of united states has put the A 10 in preference over the F 35----.

The A10 will only work in countries like Afghanistan where the enemy has no anti air elements to speak of...the plane itself is slow and cumbersome and mainly suited to close support ops.

 

[MastanKhan]

exactly for that reason @Oscar I think PAF has a defeatist philosophy if it doesnt want to go out of the comfort zone of its borders.
the guy you quoted couldnt have been more wrong when he misquoted Israeli airforce. he has forgotten that Israeli airforce went all the way to Iraq to destroy its nuclear installations, want to do the same to Iran and was all primed up to strike Pakistan which it might not have ruled out yet. it is by far the best on job deep strike air force after the Yankies

Hi,

Thank you---and the fear of the deep strike of the Israelis was so much that more than half of the paf planes took off without any weapons.

How abut Israeli strike in Syria---in the past I have stated a few times---if Pakistan wants to succeed---it needs to copy what Israel is doing---.

As for strikes on Pakistan----with any hostilities with india---mark my words---it will be the Israeli submarines that will strike nuc targets in Pakistan---if there is any strike----these missile launches will be coming off the cast of Karachi.

The A10 will only work in countries like Afghanistan where the enemy has no anti air elements to speak of...the plane itself is slow and cumbersome and mainly suited to close support ops.

Senor,

I don't know from wher you are getting your learning material---but the primary goal of this aircraft was to take on thousands of Russian armor on the European front against all the Russian SA weaponery. The location of the exhaust on the A 10 makes it very difficult for a missile lock due to very little heat signature.

When we talk about bombers----we are by default taking about the fighter bombers---but then there are those who were saying in 2004 that paf should have also gone for the british bombers that they retired during that period.

The A10 faced Afghanistan 15 years after its original retirement date----my man----I don't think that yu are reading the news----the U S is giving preference to the A 10 over the F 35's---almost all the A 10 that possibly can be will be upgraded for another few years of service.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I agree that the PAF does not have the numbers to deny the IAF air superiority, but with that said, how would you expect the PAF to field bombers (safely and for any extended duration) if they can't at least keep parity with the IAF in the skies?

These bombers are going to be sitting ducks without the PAF holding its own against the IAF in air superiority.

if they cant hold their own then they lose their right to exist as an airforce.
those names sake fighters would be doing their job by protecting the bombers.
the fighter jets exist for a support role. staying in the comfort zone of Pakistani airspace wont contribute in winning a war. they would need to go inside the enemy territory & help the fighter/bombers to make the enemy airbases inoperable.

and if they perform their role well which is to provide air cover and protection to bombers then bombers will do the rest of the job by denying the enemy from launching any future airstrikes or mass ground offensive

it could lead to successful raids on advance IAF airbases and the assembly areas of their strike corps , job done , then the top guns can do what they love the most.. fly CAP and take out Indian strike jets and their air cover .

you take the fight to the enemy not stay in your house and hope to defeat him. crossing over to India and taking out their airbases (almost all are along the western side and along Pakistan) would be best done with dedicated bombers not the size of B2 or B52 but dedicated medium bombers.

right now PAF is burning out it F-16s over naswar khor AK 47 TTP in North waziristan, if it had something similar to A-5 or even Su-25 then the F-16 precious flight time could be saved for a real enemy.
I am not just talking about setting up entire fleet and a bomber command but pointing out at the total disregard or even loathing of CAP and dedicated strike role aircrafts due to the absence of a dedicated jet for that. JF-17 cat be a jack of all trade its a failed philosophy much like the F-35 JSF

 

[Su-11]

Never imagined there would be such a thread on this forum populated by fan boys.

Just to give an idea, the number of brahmos required to strike a target with the same payload of a MiG-27ML is 16. And an upgraded MiG-27ML costs just 2 cruise missiles(upgrade costs and the basic costs combined)! And a MiG-27 is re-usable. Its not as 'sexy' as a cruise missile but it will get the job done if the mission is properly planned. If you stick to cruise missiles as a substitute for bombers, then your entire country would become bankrupt.

While the above fighter bombers like the MiG-27s and Jaguars can be used even while the area is hot, provided they are escorted, a dedicated bomber like the Tu-160 or a B-52 should only be used after complete or local or temporary airsuperiority is established. If you don't then, well ask the Americans what happened during the vietnam war.

The problem nowadays is this time of peace which means military is asked to tighten its belt, and under these circumstances the airforce is forced to make one aircraft perform many duties. This rationale is further cemented by the kind of wars won nowadays by these aircrafts, where industrialized nations bomb some third world country which cannot defend itself well. As you cannot train a single guy to perform both weight lifting and running, you also cannot have an aircraft which can bring out its best dog-fighting capability, when its airframe is unnecessarily strengthened(which puts on weight, increased wing load and reduces maneuverability), to carry loads not necessary for an air superiority role.
Unless you have a situation where industrialized nations are fighting for their very life and death amongst against each other, as a result the funds become unlimited because of the nature of the enemy, and where the aircrafts are fighting on the drawing boards to cut down every unnecessary junk it is carrying contrary to the specialised role it is going to EXCEL in, so that it can edge out the smart and dangerous enemy who is also trying hard to make his aircraft the fastest and the nimblest to win the air-battle, and strongest and the most resilient to win the air-ground battle - this nonsense of a multirole/omni-role fighter will continue.

Pakistan cannot get itself a dedicated bomber because of a very simple reason, money!
India doesn't need a bomber now because it already has plenty of dedicated bombers.


Just remember, air targets can run out but ground targets can never ever run out because there is always something to bomb on the enemy's ground! Ground targets will only run out when the enemy ceases to exist and the land is claimed.

 

[genmirajborgza786]

Hi,

I am talking abut the JH 7 B---that should be one of the considerations along with the J11 pedigree.




Hi,

My cause for the Grippen was in 2003--2005----. Grippens not now---Rafales aytime---I would still like to have the M2k9's----.

Mig-35 @ $30 million a piece , is both affordable & can be an excellent platform, for the role of a heavy bomber, if Russia is willing to sell it, PAF should seriously look @ it

 

[Selous]

Hi,

Thank you---and the fear of the deep strike of the Israelis was so much that more than half of the paf planes took off without any weapons.

How abut Israeli strike in Syria---in the past I have stated a few times---if Pakistan wants to succeed---it needs to copy what Israel is doing---.

As for strikes on Pakistan----with any hostilities with india---mark my words---it will be the Israeli submarines that will strike nuc targets in Pakistan---if there is any strike----these missile launches will be coming off the cast of Karachi.



Senor,

I don't know from wher you are getting your learning material---but the primary goal of this aircraft was to take on thousands of Russian armor on the European front against all the Russian SA weaponery. The location of the exhaust on the A 10 makes it very difficult for a missile lock due to very little heat signature.

When we talk about bombers----we are by default taking about the fighter bombers---but then there are those who were saying in 2004 that paf should have also gone for the british bombers that they retired during that period.

The A10 faced Afghanistan 15 years after its original retirement date----my man----I don't think that yu are reading the news----the U S is giving preference to the A 10 over the F 35's---almost all the A 10 that possibly can be will be upgraded for another few years of service.

Here is a wikipedia excerpt for you:
The Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II is an American twin-engine, straight-wing jet aircraft developed by Fairchild-Republic in the early 1970s. It is the only United States Air Force production aircraft designed solely for close air support, including attacking tanks, armored vehicles, and other ground targets with limited air defenses.

I have also read that theoretically the A10 is very vulnerable to MANPADS since it is mainly effective at low altitudes and speeds. As far as the A10 being effective against modern tanks...I don't think so. The main weapon of the A10 is the GAU 8 30mm cannon...and modern tanks are built to survive even 120mm penetrator rounds and shaped charges. Perhaps the bulk of fire might be able to overcome the tanks armour but I don't think its likely.

 

[jupiter2007]

If cost is a concern----Paf should look at the upcoming JH 7B---the other option is off-course the J11 series..

I don't think JH-7B is any better than when it was offered to PAF back in early 2000s. PAF rejected it back then and they will probably reject it now because of old design and less powerful engine. The other option you mentioned was J-11, it can't be sold to Pakistan without prior approval from Russia. Russia would rather sale Mig35 to Pakistan then allow China to sell J-11 series to Pakistan. Those who are dreaming about J-31.........It's not going into production until 2020.


What are the other options?

1) Buy used/new F-16s
2) Increase the JF-17 block 2 production from 12-16 to 25-30 per year.
3) buy FC-20 for stop gap until J-31 is ready
4) Buy used Mirage 2000
5) Spanish Mirage F1
6) 25 Kfir Block 60 from Israel

 

[Selous]

I don't think JH-7B is any better than when it was offered to PAF back in early 2000s. PAF rejected it back then and they will probably reject it now because of old design and less powerful engine. The other option you mentioned was J-11, it can't be sold to Pakistan without prior approval from Russia. Russia would rather sale Mig35 to Pakistan then allow China to sell J-11 series to Pakistan. Those who are dreaming about J-31.........It's not going into production until 2020.


What are the other options?

1) Buy used/new F-16s
2) Increase the JF-17 block 2 production from 12-16 to 25-30 per year.
3) buy FC-20 for stop gap until J-31 is ready
4) Buy used Mirage 2000
5) Spanish Mirage F1
6) 25 Kfir Block 60 from Israel

Option 6 is out of the question.

 

[jupiter2007]

Option 6 is out of the question.

 

[Selous]

It is out of the question because Pakistan does not conduct business with Israel.

 

[Wolfhound]

i have also been noticing this for quite a while we need the jh 7b or a very heavy bomber like the russian Tupolev Tu-160 but i dont see it happening until our economy stables so you shouldnt even think about them till 2019+

 

[AUz]

@MastanKhan

Can you name some bomber options PAF has right now?

Are you arguing for full-fledged bombers like B-52s or bomber-fighters like Su-35 being used as a bomb-truck with two BVRs etc...

Can you please clarify a little bit?

Also, what is your source for the lines "Fear of Israeli deep strike was so much that half of PAF planes took off without weapons"

Can you go in a more detail about this as well?

Thanks.

 

[MastanKhan]

I don't think JH-7B is any better than when it was offered to PAF back in early 2000s. PAF rejected it back then and they will probably reject it now because of old design and less powerful engine. The other option you mentioned was J-11, it can't be sold to Pakistan without prior approval from Russia. Russia would rather sale Mig35 to Pakistan then allow China to sell J-11 series to Pakistan. Those who are dreaming about J-31.........It's not going into production until 2020.


What are the other options?

1) Buy used/new F-16s
2) Increase the JF-17 block 2 production from 12-16 to 25-30 per year.
3) buy FC-20 for stop gap until J-31 is ready
4) Buy used Mirage 2000
5) Spanish Mirage F1
6) 25 Kfir Block 60 from Israel

Hi,

JH 7 B should be in production next year------the JH7 was offered at that time---. Th 7 B has new engines---new canopy---new weapons systems---new electronics----can launch all naval weapons as well as ground strike and also BVR capable with a weapons load capacity of 6 tons plus----.

People----please don't row a tunnel vision----there are a few choices of fighter bombers available---.

J 31 is an air superiority fighter aircraft---.

As for used mirages---M2K9's if available---would be a heck of an addition but timing is an issue---. If

While the above fighter bombers like the MiG-27s and Jaguars can be used even while the area is hot, provided they are escorted, a dedicated bomber like the Tu-160 or a B-52 should only be used after complete or local or temporary airsuperiority is established. If you don't then, well ask the Americans what happened during the vietnam war.
QUOTE]

Sir,

Tell us what happened to the American bombers.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Unlike Brahmos, Babur can 'loiter', even switch targets, and can be reprogrammed mid air. US did use Tomahawks against the Iraqi Army formations. They are very suitable for delivering sensor fused bomblets over enemy armor formations. Chemical, Biological, Radiological and Thermobaric weapons are also compatible with Babur like vehicles.

So can the Nirbhay.