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Paf Is Run By Fighter Mafia Jocks---Kaiser Tufail Is Wrong

I guess Pakistan Air Force has just limited its role to denying air superiority to the Indians

primary posture is defensive, with offensive-defense capabilities drilled into the pilots

they know how "warm" a reception we have for them should they decide to come in un-invited.....which is why since 2008 (a good wakeup call) they've been careful to respect our air space and not test our preparedness
 
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staying in the comfort zone of Pakistani airspace wont contribute in winning a war. they would need to go inside the enemy territory & help the fighter/bombers to make the enemy airbases inoperable.

though I agree with you and with @MastanKhan in general & this part of your post summarize the situation well enough even for a layman like me, but I need to know why are we limiting the scope of our discussion to PAF only ... ??

In my opinion our overall War Doctrine under which all branches of our defence forces have evolved their war strategies is 'defensive' be it Army, Navy or Air force (as the subject of discussion of this thread).

To defend Lahore our Army have a strategy fight the battle at the outskirt of Lahore, but not to 'Capture and hold' the Amritsar during the wartime, same is the case for Multan Bahawalpur sector do we have any plan to capture & hold any of the cities near border like Jaisalmer, Nagaur or Bikaner.

From Naval perspective defence of Karachi lies at the Dawarka and Mumbai but is it possible for our Naval force to go out and endanger the defence of these two cities in-response to the threats Karachi would face in any Indo-Pakistan war.

In my opinion answer is no as both of the branches of our armed forces has opted to fight the war inside the International border of Pakistan so as the PAF which is required to fulfill the supportive role within the borders.

In this case we all know that 'Multirole Fighter' are more relevant than 'Dedicated role Fighters' as they not only defend but pose 'limited' threat as well & the capability of limited threat could be 'enhanced to an extent' with the standoff weapon & this is the strategy of PAF.

In today's world especially in context of Pakistan subject of Defence can not be discussed without the consideration the 'Economic Performance' of the country which is dependent on the 'Political Stability' and political stability is related to the "Efficient Governing System" so whenever we the defence enthusiast discuss about the 'limited operational capabilities' of any of the branch of our defence forces we should keep in mind some ground realities as well under the influence of which our Armed forces are trying to maintain minimum deterrence conventionally and non-conventionally, we may be right in our analysis in 'general terms' but sometime we lack the practical wisdom.
 
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First is having air supremacy other wise bombers will be sitting ducks for that you need good quality air superiority figther which is F-16 MLU and block 52 are now also JF-17 is evolving into one as well.To have seperate air defense and bomber on paper it looks really good but in reality it`s not affordable only few air forces in the world have pure air superority fighters US if i am not wrong only F-22 /F-15 have been designated with these roles .Similarly life cycle and critical analsysis have shown in the modern era there is no room for only air dominance fighter it has to do multi role i believe sensors and avionics have evolved in such a way that this is possible .Also when i first heard about JFT replacing A-5 i did my search and we all will be surprised

General characteristics
A-5
JF-17 Thunder
  • Crew: 1
  • Length: 14.93 m (49 ft)
  • Wingspan: 9.45 m (31 ft, including 2 wingtip missiles)
  • Height: 4.72 m (15 ft 6 in)
  • Wing area: 24.4 m²[114] (263 ft²)
  • Empty weight: 6,586 kg (14,520 lb)
  • Loaded weight: 9,100 kg (20,062 lb)
  • Useful load: 3000 kg (6600 lb)
  • Max. takeoff weight: 12,383 kg (27,300 lb)
  • Powerplant: 1 × Klimov RD-93
    • Dry thrust: 49.4 kN / 51.2 kN (11,106 lbf / 11,510 lbf)
    • Thrust with afterburner: 84.5 kN (19,000 lbf)
  • G-limit: +8 g / -3 g
  • Internal Fuel Capacity: 2,300 kg (5,130 lb)
Please see below Max takeoff weight considering ferry ranges and other stuff i think it totally justfies this multi role concept.
 
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PAF is going right way with Multi-Role rather than single role. For blasting enemy on the ground we have SRBM-IRBMs.
 
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Hi,

Absolutely---that has been the scourage of all the air forces for a century now---pro-active air forces have come out of that mindset---the Gulf War 1 changed the mindset of all the players in the game for the western forces---to such an extreme end that an air force with the likes of united states has put the A 10 in preference over the F 35----.
exactly for that reason @Oscar I think PAF has a defeatist philosophy if it doesnt want to go out of the comfort zone of its borders.
the guy you quoted couldnt have been more wrong when he misquoted Israeli airforce. he has forgotten that Israeli airforce went all the way to Iraq to destroy its nuclear installations, want to do the same to Iran and was all primed up to strike Pakistan which it might not have ruled out yet. it is by far the best on job deep strike air force after the Yankies

That is quite misunderstood. There is a clear need and requirement to strike well outside of the borders... at the same time, this has to be done without excessive losses as such activities will naturally create. To work around this the PAF has invested heavily in stand off systems for its strike forces.

Knowing well that the Mirages would not survive long across the border they were prioritized for standoff weapons in the H-2 and H-4 bombs. Which leaves the F-16s being the jets focused on punching through the ADGE and EW net across the border to strike targets that require pin point precision.

Had this offensive-defensive policy been abandoned.. there would not be the rather vast array of stand off systems being pumped in for the JF-17. The problem is with getting BDA on these strikes which gets difficult with stand off weapons unless imagery is available via satellite or LO UAV systems.
 
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Thats what Cruise Missiles are for. If we really need bombers, a squadron of Su-34 Fullback is the answer.
cruise missiles will not replace the need for the strike fighters .. YET in our life time.
cruise missiles have a niche and a place but they are not the primary weapon
they are for select and high value limited targets. much like special forces vs. larger regular troops.
imagine how many cruise missiles you need to stop 33 divisions moving on your country from Sindh to Kashmir.
Simple answer - Cost.
You simply cannot afford to make and fire Cruise Missiles in thousands everyday. A fighter-bomber or a heavy bomber can do what a CM can do at 1/10th the cost and saturate an area.

Even India cannot afford to do that though India has a bigger budget and lesser number of military targets in Pakistan. We need fighter-bombers as well.

CM's are to be used for high value targets where AD is relatively high. Nirbhay will be used for that purpose - it costs around $1.5 million per missile.
BrahMos will be used for even higher value targets which are either time critical or in a very dense AD environment - it costs $5 million a pop!
Even the magnificent 300 were smashed by the Persian armies. Your air force needs to reach the enemy's heart lands---dehli---agra---Mumbai and other south indian cities.
Since when did Agra become a 'heartland' of India. Its a tourist city and other than that is irrelevant.
 
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cruise missles will never have the same effect as long range fighter planes.

like the guy says a cruise missle one tenth of the effect of a strike fighter.

you wont touch a hair on indian head with cruise missles
 
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For those who keep bringing up the JH-7, its a good aircraft but just as the Mirage F1 option the time window to buy has passed. Better options available.

When the JH-7 came initially it was an under powered aircraft and by the time kinks were worked out its production rate was still just 6 aircraft a year, this is the reason why despite interest by Iran and Pakistan it failed to get an export order. Its matured now but its time has passed and better multirole options on the horizon. The J-10 trumps the JH-7 and its being sidelined because of the J-31.
 
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Honourable Mastan Khan’s post raises many interesting questions. Not being an ex- member the Armed Services; I am not biased one way or the other. From a lay man’s angle and with my limited intelligence; I will try to look at it one point at time. I seek your indulgence if some points have already been covered by other honourable posters.

Firstly, to the best of my knowledge A-10 was never seriously on offer to Pakistan; also to the best of my info, A-10 is in service with no other country except the USA. Therefore debating whether PAF could have, would have or should have acquired A-10 is pointless.

Secondly, A-10 is not a bomber in the traditional sense. A-10 is primarily an anti-armour aircraft (tank buster), main armament being the lethal 30mm Gatling gun. Being slow (380 Knots at sea level ‘Clean’) it can only operate to full potential when complete air superiority exists. In any India/Pakistan scenario this would never be the case.

Combat radius of A-10 is only about 250 miles; hence it is not suitable for deep interdiction in mould of A-7 Corsair II or A-6 Intruder. Absence of A-10 in the PAF inventory can best be compensated thru the acquisition of state of the art tank busting helicopters gunships such as AH-64 Apache or Mi-28 Hind; it does not call for bombers.

Pakistan has had no “Bomber” aircraft after B-57 was retired. These days except the USA, Russia & China, no other country can afford luxury of dedicated “Bomber” force. Last attack aircraft which could be classified as “bomber” outside the super powers was the Buccaneer, retired in 1993 by the United Kingdom. Modern trend is towards multirole aircrafts such as Mig -29, Su-27, Su-30, Chinese J-10, J-11 & J-16, US, F-18, F-16, French Rafael & Mirage 2000, European Tornado, Typhoon, Swedish Grippen etc.

A-5 was never a bomber. It was a decent ground attack/strike aircraft. PAF Mirage-3 & Mirage-5 aircrafts (when these are not crashing) with the Rose upgrade can do the strike/interdiction job much better that A-5 was capable of. Mirage -5 can carry 8,000 lbs of ordinance about 675 miles on a hi-lo-hi profile. This is more than F-16. Perhaps that is why Mirages are still soldiering on in the PAF inventory.

J-16 is a twin engine heavy weight (empty weight 38,600 lbs versus max take of weight of 42000 lbs for F-16C Block 52). Don’t think it can be classified as a bomber either. However being an improved version of J-11 (SU-27), J-16 is without doubt an excellent multirole aircraft. However these big birds cost an arm and a leg to buy & maintain. On a tactical strike mission an F-16 will carry 4000 lb bomb load 360 miles and defend itself against the best. Even though many members of this forum hate it because it is American, you can see why PAF pilots love it. If I were a PAF planner, I would buy additional second hand F-16 and the MLU kits instead. This would give me more bang for my buck.

Finally, it is true that after A-5 PAF has no twin-engine aircraft. Single engine versus twin engine debate has been going on for a long time. It has not been conclusively proven that aircraft with 2 engines is better nor is it relevant to fighter versus bomber debate. True multi-role capability requires large platform which implies a heavy aircraft; which in turn require higher thrust power plant to compensate for heavy weapons load. Easiest solution is to put two engines instead on one.

Safety and survivability of twin-engine aircraft both during peace (bird strikes and technical failures) and war (enemy action) have been quoted as the most important driving factors for such a configuration. However, modern jet engines are extremely reliable and are being made as bird-proof as possible. With advances in engine technology a single engine can develop very high thrust. Lockheed Martin’s production of the multi-role single engine F-35 Lightning II, Joint Strike Fighter has a single Pratt & Whitney F-135 engine at 25,000 lbs (dry) and 40,000 lbs (with reheat). In other words, it produces as much thrust as the combined thrust of power plants fitted on the twin-engine General Electric F-414 powered US F-18 Super Hornets. On the other hand, the single-engine variety enjoys one distinct edge; it is consumes less fuel hence cheaper to operate and it is also less costly to buy as one engine costs less that two.

Based upon the above explanation I don’t think that PAF is dominated by the fighter jockeys and preference of single engine combat aircrafts is probably due to cost considerations.
 
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Regarding used F16 and cost analysis.

Pakistan is paying $1.5 billion to upgrade 44 block a/b falcons at present. This equates to over $35 million each. I believe this cost also includes the cost of 500= amraam missles and other munitions

Saw on this on website this week.

Point being even buying used falcons and upgrading to block c/d is not cheap.

And you still retain the doubt in the back of your mind what may USA do to withhold spares and parts if the usa/pak interests start to collide in the future

This is why I guess there is such a scramble and hot swell of opinion to go for chinease J10 now and in a decade for J31.

Looking at the make up of the current PAF fleet today I see limitations in key areas.

1. Operations will be limited to pak airspace. Short to medium range fighters
2. cant play a major role in supporting Pakistan navy at sea unless on coastline. no suitible fighter ie j11 or f18 hornets types
3. Relying on falcons alone to keep PAF in battle against the enemy as thunder is not fully mature into a true bvr fighter until block 2 upgrades appear in 2016.
4. Outnumber 3-1 in 4th generation fighters
5. Pending arrival of rafale which is edging closer needs to be answered in some form and waiting for j31 would leave PAF naked until 2025.

Underestimating the quantum leap in capability of F3 rafale wil bring into this region is suicide.
Aesa equipped late 4th generation fighter with a meteore bvr missle and ew suite like spectra will skew kill ratio to 5 or 6 to 1 over any current PAF fighter.

PAF has needs to answer this threat now today not in 2025.

They must have something in mind before 2017-2018 surely
 
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@MastanKhan Sir

All armed forces do a TEN year Perspective planning and force planning
depending upon the

1 likely availability of resources
2 Threat perception from adversaries
3 Evolving technological scenario

I dont think that PAF has goofed up or ignored some important needs

They just have a very tight budget given the economic problems of Pakistan
 
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1- As you see in above case at that time Pakistani economy was good enough

2- only PAF has got some personal who get kickbacks from west
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3- PAF was not even willing for JFT project government forced them to do so

Factually Incorrect post

1- Do you even know here in Pakistan 90's era is termed as lost decade for a reason

2- It was actually the other way around, many senior members of this forum can tell you about the Mirage 2000 saga our Democratically Elected Civilian government was involved in kickback and the personal from PAF stood against it.

3- JF-17 could be termed as the brain child of ACM Mushaf Ali Mir & AM Shahid Latif Butt.
 
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One thing i want to point out is that Pakistan has missiles like the Nasr missile which are custom built to stop tank columns from advancing. I think the main focus of the air force is to push back the Indian air force and ground forces backed by Nasr missiles to stop advances of the tanks. Strategies are not really discussed here but it is a simple counter strategy for advancing tank battalions
 
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1- Do you even know here in Pakistan 90's era is termed as lost decade for a reason

2- It was actually the other way around, many senior members of this forum can tell you about the Mirage 2000 saga our Democratically Elected Civilian government was involved in kickback and the personal from PAF stood against it.
For point 1 it is only termed as lost decade because PA relayed on USA too much and USA slapped Pakistan to hard that Navy and Air force almost fell.
2.This is a common mindset in Pakistan that all civilians are bunch of idiots,Pakistan is just suffering because of PA policies in all fields.
 
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For point 1 it is only termed as lost decade because PA relayed on USA too much and USA slapped Pakistan to hard that Navy and Air force almost fell.
2.This is a common mindset in Pakistan that all civilians are bunch of idiots,Pakistan is just suffering because of PA policies in all fields.

It is because of point 2 that the Pakistani military has learnt NOTHING.. and by that I mean no changes in mentality or ideals... since its inception. They are still stuck in the 20th Century in terms of fighting ideas and concepts

By contrast, the Indian military is producing leaders that are much more attuned to the 21st Century.
 
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