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The joy lasted till I touched down after that I was grounded for 2days, Hakim SB kicked mu butt:guns::guns::cry:.
Well if you want to know the Crazy missions and stuff I have done Your father was right there and then and he knew everything actually he knows more than my Son.

1...Yes Sir, I know my father knew about happennings in airforce a lot but it was his habbit not to tell anything, I used to get information from outside and when I wanted to confirm with him; instead his answer used to be between YES, and NO, PERHAPS etc.

2.....The members of this Forum and me would love to hear from you about crazy missions...

3.... Can you quote any details when USSAF pilots in their F15s came in Pakistan in 1978, one of Pakistani Pilot I remember was Abdur Razzaq (died in 2003), who flew Mirage; and Mirage and F-6 locked them and USSAF pilots were surprised...
 
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1...Yes Sir, I know my father knew about happennings in airforce a lot but it was his habbit not to tell anything, I used to get information from outside and when I wanted to confirm with him; instead his answer used to be between YES, and NO, PERHAPS etc.

2.....The members of this Forum and me would love to hear from you about crazy missions...

3.... Can you quote any details when USSAF pilots in their F15s came in Pakistan in 1978, one of Pakistani Pilot I remember was Abdur Razzaq (died in 2003), who flew Mirage; and Mirage and F-6 locked them and USSAF pilots were surprised...

I am pretty sure both our Mirages and F-6s scored kills versus the F-15s.
Must be tales worth listening to from Muradk if he deems it is information he can share openly!
 
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I am pretty sure both our Mirages and F-6s scored kills versus the F-15s.
Must be tales worth listening to from Muradk if he deems it is information he can share openly!

We were 2 mirages 1 F-6, vs 3 USAF we all got the first kill.:pakistan:
 
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We were 2 mirages 1 F-6, vs 3 USAF we all got the first kill.:pakistan:
Sir,
the F-15s had good radars to give them ample detection time even without ground radar support and rest they were all superior so anything you can share on the exciting tactics used to score by PAF pilots?
If you cannot disclose i can understand...
 
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Look for the article.. I have read it online somewhere. Something about a loose formation and using cloud cover..with the eagles thinking there was only one F-6..something.
 
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Sir,
the F-15s had good radars to give them ample detection time even without ground radar support and rest they were all superior so anything you can share on the exciting tactics used to score by PAF pilots?
If you cannot disclose i can understand...

We had 2 exercises in 1 week, The first encounter Jamal got a clean kill but he wasn't sure because the F-15s were fast and the shot was taken in dense cloud.

2nd time we were 2 mirage 1 F-6, the american were smart they saw the first exercise realising that one on one dog fight would be a bad move the only way they could beat us was very simple. Go vertical and have us chase them 2+2=4 we knew we could never stay with the F-15 in a vertical climb so when the fight started they just went straight up the F-15 were shot during the climb and the 3rd went into 1 vs 1 thinking he could take 2 off us down in a steep turn Mirage got a perfect shot right in the middle of the fuselage. The American bitched about it and said no it not possible , The exercise was simple when we got a kill we used to say Flash1 you are dead. Flash1 meant you got shot now in a dog fight you say Flash1 and then find out that it was not a kill that was basically your *** on a Sling. We all landed checked the film and yes we got all 3.

Col Retd Charles Austin
" It was an eye opening experience for us, I wish I could have stayed there for a longer time. PAF pilots were very savant and confident"
 
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We had 2 exercises in 1 week, The first encounter Jamal got a clean kill but he wasn't sure because the F-15s were fast and the shot was taken in dense cloud.

2nd time we were 2 mirage 1 F-6, the american were smart they saw the first exercise realising that one on one dog fight would be a bad move the only way they could beat us was very simple. Go vertical and have us chase them 2+2=4 we knew we could never stay with the F-15 in a vertical climb so when the fight started they just went straight up the F-15 were shot during the climb and the 3rd went into 1 vs 1 thinking he could take 2 off us down in a steep turn Mirage got a perfect shot right in the middle of the fuselage. The American bitched about it and said no it not possible , The exercise was simple when we got a kill we used to say Flash1 you are dead. Flash1 meant you got shot now in a dog fight you say Flash1 and then find out that it was not a kill that was basically your *** on a Sling. We all landed checked the film and yes we got all 3.

Col Retd Charles Austin
" It was an eye opening experience for us, I wish I could have stayed there for a longer time. PAF pilots were very savant and confident"

:pakistan:
 
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Look for the article.. I have read it online somewhere. Something about a loose formation and using cloud cover..with the eagles thinking there was only one F-6..something.

I read that article 4 years ago...www.pakdef.info...earlier the name of website was something pakfalcons

One F-6 served as sitting duck and the other got a clear shot

In second contest Two mirages flew line abreast making think F-15 pilot that there is only one mirage
 
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Look for the article.. I have read it online somewhere. Something about a loose formation and using cloud cover..with the eagles thinking there was only one F-6..something.

The F-6 pilots planned..... one F-6 will be an easy pray for one F-15, the other F-15 will be looking for other F-6.
In the meantime when one F-15 was busy in announcing Fox2, the other F-6 had him locked in his guns.

The story was narrated by PAF Pilot who had 27 years of accident free service with the PAF, he did not mention his name in the story. I will try to get that story and will post in DF
 
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No worries brother, it is as much your post as much its mine. I would love to hear stories of warriors from you and other people as well. These are our heroes mine and yours.

Do post your stories, even if it is repeated just a few new words about them to add information about them.

KIT Over n Out.

just few words to add, from the past:-
"Hakimullah Sb. once after landing F-104 kicked it, because F-104 gun did not fire when the target was in perfect position to shoot"

"In 1965 war Amritsar Radar was creating some trouble to PAF, several mission were flown to pinpoint the exact position of the Radar. In one of the mission, F/Lt Hakimullah flew the F-104 with S/L Middlecoat in the back seat, with hand held camera, the excessive g's made him difficult to hold the camera"

"Once S/L Munir came so close to a Indian Mig 21, he said in stammerred voice...BBBBy....GGGGGod....it nearly hit me. He could read out the tail number of the aircraft."

"Munir before going to his final mission, entering the room full of pilots and other said to extra men " Gentlemen, please shift out"
 
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The F-6 pilots planned..... one F-6 will be an easy pray for one F-15, the other F-15 will be looking for other F-6.
In the meantime when one F-15 was busy in announcing Fox2, the other F-6 had him locked in his guns.

The story was narrated by PAF Pilot who had 27 years of accident free service with the PAF, he did not mention his name in the story. I will try to get that story and will post in DF

It was Air cdre Jamal he had a total of 2500 hr. Jamal didn't flew much but was an excellent pilot and an officer very few people in PAF match his caliber. he had a photogenic memory very studious all in all that is what a GDP is suppose to be.
 
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Sir,
the F-15s had good radars to give them ample detection time even without ground radar support and rest they were all superior so anything you can share on the exciting tactics used to score by PAF pilots?
If you cannot disclose i can understand...

PAF vs USAF F-15s

JOINT USAF / PAF AIR EXERCISES IN 1978

by Air Cdre (retd.) Jamal Hussain


Early this year, USAF had conducted a joint air exercise with the Indian Air Force, codenamed ‘Cope India’. A brief report of the event appeared in the Dawn article of Friday June 15 titled, “Air exercise with India a wake-up call for US: general”.

The article brought back fond memories of similar exercises that PAF used to hold with USAF on a regular basis in the sixty and seventy decades of the previous century. I was fortunate to attend two very comprehensive joint USAF/PAF exercises in April and November/December 1978 codenamed Shabaz78 and Midlink 78 respectively. I consider it a privilege to be able to share my experiences of the two events with the public in general and my successors, the current generation of PAF fighter pilots.

If you want a peep into the dream and wonderful world of fighter pilots where passion, vocation and profession are rolled into a single homogenous mix, then read on. Welcome to our little world with our idiosyncrasies and jargons that only we relish and are familiar with.

Shahbaz 78

Shahbaz 78, a joint USAF/PAF Exercise was held at PAF Base Masroor in April 1978. A detachment of Mirage Squadron from Sargodha Base was deployed at Masroor for the purpose. The first part of the exercise was fairly straight forward where USAF aircraft conducted night raids at Masroor Base and PAF interceptors flew air defence missions against them. Both the USAF strike elements and PAF’s air defence fighters operated from Masroor. The second half of the exercise was a planned Dissimilar Air Combat Training Camp (DACT) that pitted the formidable F-15s, USAF’s prize new acquisition against PAF’s Mirages and F6s.

For much of the 60s and part of the 70s of the twentieth century, USAF F-4s were considered the top of the line combat aircraft, especially in the air superiority role. Following their not so encouraging performance in air combat in the Vietnam War (kill ratio of 4:1 in favour of USAF as against 10:1 in the Korean Conflict), USAF was looking for an unadulterated air superiority fighter to replace the multi-role and aging F-4 fleet. The F-15 entered service around 1975 and in every parameter of combat manoeuvring, it outperformed its contemporaries by a wide margin. It was developed for one single role – establish air superiority by decimating the adversary’s combat aircraft in air combat. The F-15 combat Wings that were raised were not assigned multi-roles; they concentrated solely on air to air combat training and nothing else.

One such Wing was deployed at Bittburg in Germany. Besides conducting mutual air combat missions, they frequently flew against Saab-Drakens, Lightnings, Phantoms, Mirages and F-104s belonging to the air forces of their European NATO allies. The stories of how they have been chewing up their adversaries with consummate ease had preceded their arrival. The Wing was deployed at PAF Base Masroor in April 78 to participate in a DACT Camp. I had the privilege of being a member of the Mirage flight deployed at Masroor for the purpose. The F-6 Squadron that participated in the Exercise was commanded by the irrepressible Wing Commander Safdar Mahmood (retired as Air Commodore), better known to his comrades as Safdar Mousey, for reasons I never knew then and still do not know till today.

The gleaming F-15s parked at Masroor tarmac were a sight to behold. Here was the most lethal fighter of its time and we by comparison in our antiquated Mirages and F-6s were going to take them head on, both in the literal and metaphorical sense. How should we plan to achieve this apparently improbable feat?

Vanity is an essential ingredient of fighter pilots and they are generally hopeless optimists with a never say die attitude. We were no different. To prepare ourselves for combat, we studied the flying and weapon characteristics of the F-15s to discover any weakness that could be exploited - we found none. In every regime they outperformed us by a wide margin. But there was one slight advantage we enjoyed. Visual spotting of the F-15 for us was far easier than for the F-15 pilots to establish visual tally with us because as compared to the majestic F-15s, we were only half their size. Their brilliant AI radar with the Target Designator (TD) box feature that was unknown in our part of the world at that point in time however neutralised the drawback. The TD box pinpointed our position on their Heads Up Display (HUD) that aided them immensely in establishing visual contact with us. If only we could fool their AI radar, we stood a chance. Hmmm, time to come up with something unexpected. Think outside the box. That appeared to be our only salvation.

The combined briefings laid down the rules of the game for the camp. All combats would take place in the designated areas from 10,000 Above Ground Level (AGL). The upper height limit was not specified. F-15s would hunt in pairs whereas we had the option of employing up to 4 aircraft though in majority of engagements we also operated in twos. F-15s were to be configured with training AIM-7 Sparrow BVR missiles, along with AIM-9s (heat seeking missiles) and cannons. We only had the heat seekers and cannons but no BVR missiles. The F-15 Airborne Intercept (AI) radar had a pick up range of over 40 NMS; our Mirage AI radar capability was zero and the poor F-6 did not even carry an AI radar.

To even out certain obvious disadvantages of our fleet, it was agreed that we would operate under positive ground radar cover whereas the F-15s would rely on their AI radars. Also, while the F-15s could simulate Sparrow Launch (Fox 1) from long-ranges, staying well clear of the lethal ranges of our missiles and cannons, the engagement would continue till one side managed a heat missile (Fox 2) kill parameter or gunshot cine/video on one or both the adversaries. To resolve the dispute about who took the first shot, the F-15s with their multiple radios were to announce on our channel a kill (Fox 2/Fox 3) immediately on exposing valid gun camera film, after which the stricken aircraft was to remove itself from the combat arena. If we achieved a Fox 2/Fox 3 on the F-15s, without earlier announcement of being ‘foxed’ by the F-15s, the kill would be granted to us subject to its validity from gun camera film assessment.

The show began on the third week of April. According to my log-book, I flew a total of seven missions against the F-15s, from 22nd April to 26 April. In retrospect I consider those five days as the most enjoyable and professionally rewarding week of my flying career. We achieved verifiable kill parameters on the F-15s and in the bargain gave away shots to them. Before revealing the final tally of the week-long camp, I would like to share with my young fighter pilots two episodes which will be of interest to them. To my non-fighter pilot readers I apologise in advance as the next group of paragraphs will be full for fighter pilots’ jargon which only they can truly relish. You are at liberty to skip over these paragraphs if you feel so inclined.

I was to lead a section of two Mirages against a pair of F-15s. Flt Lt Razzaq Anjum was my no 2 (Razzaq rose to the rank of AVM before he embraced martyrdom in the unfortunate Fokker 27 accident). From our earlier experience we knew that there was only one way we could prevail - do the unexpected. We had to somehow make the F-15 pair lose sight of one of us, who could then sneak in for a kill. Given the very impressive performance of the F-15 airborne radar, normal tactics was bound to fail. We had to try something very different.

The standard practice for a pair entering the combat zone is to maintain battle formation that is line abreast and a mile to two miles apart, depending on the nature of threat. We chose to enter the battle arena in close formation, thereby hoping to present a single blip on the F-15 radar scope. We knew they would pick us up at around 40 NMS and seeing a single blip they would wonder about the other bogie. The superior performance of their weapon system just might lull them to a degree of complacency where they might not worry too much about the unaccounted bandit.

When our ground radar reported bandits at 15 NMS, as per our game plan, we did a violent vertical split. I zoomed up while Razzak continued straight towards the target. Soon, Razzak called contact with one of the F-15s which apparently had not established visual tally with him. I saw him go after the F-15 and simultaneously spotted the second F-15 about 3-4 NMS behind Razzak manoeuvring for a missile shot towards him. Apparently, neither of them had spotted me and I found myself favourably placed to go after the second F-15. Warning Razzak of the impending threat which was still a fair distance away from the lethal missile (Fox 2) range, I went after the second F-15. Before I could get in range for a missile shot, either on a warning by his comrade or his spotting me, the F-15 broke hard. In Mirage and F-6s, our break is normally in the turning plane but the F-15 pilot perhaps banking on the unbelievable thrust to weight ratio of his machine which permitted him to accelerate even while in a vertical climb, chose to break upward knowing that the Mirage would not be able to keep up with it for much longer. I followed him and soon both of us were facing vertical with my speed diminishing rapidly. Because of my initial speed and height advantage, I continued to close in for a valid missile shot and finally was within gun range and managed a decent gun shot before eventually falling off the sky. In the meanwhile Razzak too announced a Fox 2 and Fox 3 on his quarry. Since no Fox had been called on us till then, we had apparently drawn first blood.

I eventually ran out of speed, control and ideas and fell off the sky, recovering without entering into a spin – no thanks to my superior handling – unlike the F-6, Mirage is far more docile and forgiving at low speeds. Pretty soon I saw the F-15 on my tail but he was gentleman enough to come over to our frequency and enquire if I had exposed cine on him. On my answering in the affirmative, the first engagement was called off.

To be fair to the F-15 pair, in the next engagement (in each mission we could carry out up to two mix ups) we were unable to surprise them. They had us both firmly on their radars and rapidly closed in for close quarter one versus one engagement. Our only realistic option was to hightail it and make an immediate exit out of the designated combat zone well before establishment of visual tally by the F-15s. We did not. Despite our twists and turns, barrels, and even threatening to spin out, we were clobbered, but not without putting up a futile albeit a gallant resistance. For the mission the final score stood two for us and two for them – an even contest.

After landing as I met Razzak on the tarmac, he wore a grin that would have made the Cheshire cat proud. “What?” I asked him. “You should see the gunshot I have exposed on the F-15”, he burst out. “Let’s check it out”, I answered. We assessed our films. Both my claims were valid and so were Razzak’s but there was a catch. The minimum safe distance specified in the Rules of Engagement (ROE) during gunshot was 600 feet. In Razzak’s gunshot cine, the Mirage gun sight was the same size as the F-15 canopy – he had closed in to less than a 100 feet of the F-15 and still had the sight sitting pretty and steady. “Oh my God!” I exclaimed. “Hide it. If the bosses see it, both of us would get grounded, if not worse,” “But don’t you agree it is a beautiful sight,” he countered. “I am impressed,” I answered and just could not help marvel at the enthusiasm and ego of my irrepressible no 2.

The mutual debrief was very educative. “How did you stay behind me in the vertical break,” the F-15 leader wondered. “What was your speed when you initiated the break,” I queried. “250 knots,” he answered. “I was closed to 450 kts,” I replied. “That explains it”, he concluded. His no.2 had apparently lost sight of Razzak as he was busy updating his leader on his (leader’s) rather precarious position. I showed him Razzak’s gun camera shot. He was dumbfounded for a few seconds. We saw their gun camera films and in the second engagement they had us good and proper in their sights and they too had closed in to less than 600 feet. Two kills to each pair in the mission was mutually agreed. We complimented the F-15 pair on their professionalism and they too applauded our subterfuge and aggressive handling.

The next episode involved two F-6s flown by Safdar and his No.2 against two F-15s flown by the F-15 Wing Commander, a full colonel and his No 2. I am not aware of how the mix up proceeded but would like to quote from memory the following narration of the event by the USAF Wing Commander (Lt Col):

“On our AI radar we picked up only one target and soon spotted a lone F-6 heading south. Assuming that the other one was not in the arena, I promptly achieved Fox 2 parameter and closed in for a Fox 3 shot. On my stand-by radio I announce,” F-6 flying south, Fox 2 and Fox 3 on you”. Back came the chilling reply, “Which F-6 are you referring at. There are two of us heading south.” Instinctively I swivelled my neck and looked back. Sure enough an F-6 well within the missile range was sitting merrily at my six. It turned out to be the F-6 leader and I could almost imagine him grinning under his helmet, under his bushy moustache.”

What tactics had Safdar’s formation employed to escape radar detection? Why did he not warn his No.2 to break? Perhaps he might have concluded that the No. 2 was a dead duck regardless and why not even the score and bag an F-15 in the bargain. Where was the second F-15? I am not aware of the details and we need to get hold of Safdar and ask him to render his version of the event in his own inimitable style, a style that I can assure you would be both interesting and very hilarious.

The camp was a roaring success. I do not have the official result but if I recall the final kill ratio was roughly 2:1 in favour of the F-15s. In all their other engagements against the likes of Saab Drakens, F-4s, Mirages, Lightnings and F-104s flown by European pilots in Continental Europe, the Wing had apparently enjoyed as high as 20:1 kill ratio in their favour. Our pilots’ aggressive manoeuvring and tactical skills came as a surprise to them. We too were impressed by the awesome flying performance of the F-15s, its unmatched (at that time) AI radar performance and the thorough professionalism and sportsmanship of the USAF pilots.

Midlink 78

Exercise Midlink 78 was held in November/December 1978 where air and maritime forces of Pakistan and USA interacted with each other off the Karachi coast and in the air spaces around Karachi and the Arabian Sea. As the Flight Commander of No.5 Squadron, I was again fortunate and privileged to have taken part in the Exercise.

The air portion of Exercise Midlink 78 was fairly conventional. Red forces (aggressors) were represented by land based USAF F-111 and F-4 squadrons operating from Masroor. PAF Mirage IIIs and F-6s again from Masroor operated in the air defence role. F-111s (singly) and F-4s (in pairs) conducted raids over Masroor while Mirages and F-6s from Masroor carried out interceptions with the aid of air defence radar that were deployed for the purpose.

The aggressors ingressed at low levels and while the minimum height from safety point of view was 250 feet Above Ground Level (AGL), the F-111s, having their terrain following radars at their disposal invariably flew in at about 100 feet AGL. We as the defenders rarely complained.

As per the Rules of Engagements, the interceptor was permitted to carry out a single attack simulating a heat missile (Fox 2) or gun shot (Fox 3) while the attackers were permitted one hard turn into the interceptor at which point further manoeuvring by both was to cease. These restrictions were placed for flight safety reasons. These restrictions, as we soon learnt, existed on paper only.

F-111s, basically being an attack aircraft with little pretense to air combat potential, generally adhered to the laid down rules. The F-4s were a different kettle of fish. They had too much of fighter ego ingrained in their psyche to tamely allow another fighter jock to expose gun camera film on them capturing their theoretical destruction without a serious struggle. On a number of occasions, a hard turn by the strike formation led to full fledged combat at what in our fighter pilots’ lexicon is termed as the ‘deck level’.

These manoeuvrings and subsequent claims were never officially revealed as it would have resulted in strict disciplinary actions on both the guilty parties. But unofficially we talked about it in a hushed manner, displaying the cines on the quiet and only to each other.

Till the advent of F-15s and then F-16s, F-4s were the most potent fighter/ground attack aircraft in USAF’s inventory. During the Arab – Israeli war of 1973 when the Israeli Air Force possessed both F-4s and Mirages, the former was considered to be their No.1 air combat aircraft. With that impressive background, we expected a very tough dog-fight if the F-4s decided to engage us seriously in air combat. The F-4s, as I had mentioned earlier, on more than one occasion took us on and much to our surprise and delight we normally enjoyed the upper hand in those engagement. Mercifully also, there were no mishaps.

Was Mirage a better air superiority fighter than the F-4 or were we better trained in air combat than the F-4 crews we had engaged? Even the F-4 crews were surprised at our dexterity. Informal discussion with the F-4 squadron pilots revealed that the particular squadron we were dealing with had reconnaissance and strike as their primarily roles. Air combat manoeuvres were restricted primarily to defensive manoeuvring. No wonder, we had outperformed that lot of F-4 pilots in the air combat role.

Now a word of advice and caution from an old sinner to my younger colleagues. Exercise Midlink was one of the very few occasions when I had deliberately violated the rules and was fortunate to get away with it. In my 28 years of active service with the PAF where I flew practically all the fighters in the PAF inventory for about twenty years, I was not involved in a single accident, major or minor. Either I was fortunate or I really was not a habitual rule breaker. The fact that I was and will always remain a fighter pilot at heart and that we were engaging the world’s premier air force pilots in combat led me to believe, wrongly I realise now, that PAF’s honour had to be protected at any cost. Perhaps we were fortunate or perhaps we had the necessary skill to engage in low level combat without flying into the ground. A bit of both I think and the fact that I had just completed the Combat Commanders’ Course where we had trained for low level combat. My fervent appeal therefore to my young friends is not to indulge in any activity for which you have not been specifically trained, or which is strictly forbidden.

Courtesy: Air Cdre Jamal Hussain
Pakdef - http://www.pakdef.info/pids/paf/shahbaz78.html
 
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The above was within the set parameters of the ex. While the F-15s had better detection and SA with their AI radars, they were still surprised by the PAF pilots into close-in dog fights that resulted in very good outcomes.

The above is truly a case of, where there is a will, there is a way. ;-)
 
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i remember this part of the article
''The camp was a roaring success. I do not have the official result but if I recall the final kill ratio was roughly 2:1 in favour of the F-15s. In all their other engagements against the likes of Saab Drakens, F-4s, Mirages, Lightnings and F-104s flown by European pilots in Continental Europe, the Wing had apparently enjoyed as high as 20:1 kill ratio in their favour. Our pilots’ aggressive manoeuvring and tactical skills came as a surprise to them. We too were impressed by the awesome flying performance of the F-15s, its unmatched (at that time) AI radar performance and the thorough professionalism and sportsmanship of the USAF pilots.''
 
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