PAF doomed

[Storm Force]

IF WE STICK TO THE TOPIC and forget 65 or 71 or 99 THEY ARE TOTALLY IRRELEVANT IN 2013....

ULTIMATEL;Y the PAF and indeed the NAVY & ARMY is ONLY AS GOOD AS ITS ECONOMY & ITS ALLIES.

Economically YOU ARE A VERY WEAK NATION (harsh but true) especially compared to your RIVAL.. by a factor of close to 9 - 1.

WHERE YOU ARE VERY STRONG is your ally is CHINA and they wil back you to THE HILT.

FOR NOW

if china and pak relations SOUR and you neva KNOW in politics then building a MILITARY AND A PAF without CHINA is impossible for PAF because simply without CHINEASE soft loans and very cheap but effective systems you will be in trouble. financially.

 

[Windjammer]

The "beating" is in the minds of Pakistan and as per the neutral claims you FAILED in the prime objective in 65 and instead of ruling Delhi you ended up defending Lahore.

About 5:1? Why not 50:1? At most India can outnumber you 2:1 but most of the wars were on 1:1. With better planes and tanks and surprise attacks you were able to do successful initial thrust but Indian replies(Asal Uttar types) pushed you back and sensing the definite defeat you were happy to accept truce and avoid another national shame.

Your example is like a fight between a big and small boy... the big guy smashes up the small boy and after the fight the small boy claims victory by saying "dekha dekha maine bhi ek jor ka mara tha"

And btw you asked whats our pride...you know what it is... do you remember a country named Bangladesh? Pakistan takes pride in winning "battles" whereas India takes pride in winning wars.

So stick to the topic as enough is said on 65,71 etc.

BS must be your speciality......all your chest thumping is about East Pakistan......indeed there wasn't a ratio of 5:1 but rather 10:1.....that's right...ten IAF Squadrons against a solitary f-86 unit....still the tally ratio was in PAF favour.
How did your super duper army fared under somewhat same circumstances in Sri Lanka.... would you like a link for that.
You may have helped in creation of Bangladesh by having the honour of bringing terrorism first time into this part of the world....but who has the last laugh, when the same BD, often tends to give you a bloody nose.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

PDF is a goldmine of knowledge; just a question of digging it out.


the search function.....use it....it works GREAT

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Credit where credit is due. It was our strategic planning, our naval blockade, our diplomacy and our intelligence work that made sure that Pakistan was outnumbered in East Pakistan and in the end crushed

taking advantage of a civil war in the eastern wing which was far from the mainland; an eastern wing with 1 squadron to stand against 10 ****** ones. And even then it wasn't a decisive collapse; it took how long?

arms supplies to Pakistan from our primary arms supplier at the time were cutoff...and meanwhile your soviet buddies were sending you armaments and aircrafts liberally

either way how you look at it, it's surprising that you döt-heads bytch and whine about us exporting terrorism to india (or rather occupied Kashmir which isnt even indian territory); even if true in hindsight i'd say it's a damn good revenge

I dont understand your medieval era logic of "fair and honorful" 1.vs 1 battles.... grow up. War is not about fairness, its about how effectively you exploit your enemies weakness, or how you make those weaknesses even worse for your opponent.


And yes, Sri Lanka gave us a bloody nose. It was the first guerilla style war the Indian Army had to fight. We understood our mistake and learned from this.... and have created some of the worlds finest institution which teach the art of irregular warfare (CIJWS etc...)

now the first part is true; again --- this means that Kashmiri freedom fights who are fighting a much larger enemy are perfectly within their right to employ any method to cleanse Kashmir of ****** stains to their honour

dont worry about bloody noses anymore. China, Pakistan and Sri Lanka collectively helped crush your tamil allies and sent them to the bottom of indian ocean

 

[IceCold]

I was a advocate of democracy, but now i think their should be marshal law, atleast our military would be better.

We lost half the country during martial law so no there should be no marshal law. Military leaders have proved to be equally pathetic when it came to ruling the country. We are still suffering from the policies of Zia.

 

[Bossman]

70 km from Peshawar and 130 km from Islamabad.yes i can speak.

A quick Google Earth check, I presume? You seem more of an Indian Troll to me. OK give me some facts why PAF is doomed.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Wrong, India was forced to intervene after millions of refugees from EP were flooding into the NE of India. And after the UN did not take any steps, we had to do something since it directly affected our nation.

that's a good one

i'll remember this line the next time you bhartis yap on about Pakistani intervention in soviet-occupied Afghanistan

The whole operations did take just 13 days and we achieved all our aims. It was a decisive victory. Period.
And its true, the Soviets sent us equipment, but we bought them as usual, no military aid.

and we were forced to buy inferior spares on the black market or make do with what he had; or some fuel concessions or handful of spare aircrafts from allies in Jordan/Turkiye. But for the most part, we were cut off from arms supplies we needed while indians were armed to the teeth from (former) soviets -- how you got them is completely irrelevant.

So whats the point?

if you really cant figure it out, then you must be an imbecile

But this was an achievement of our foreign policies, especially the work of Indira Gandhi. Because in the end wars are fought not only on the battlefield, but also in the diplomatic area, and of course in the world of intelligence.

sure thing;and in fact the failures of 71 would later be grounds for Pakistan to invest more in its intelligence gathering capabilities and apparatus.

something we didnt need years later; a few kirpan wielding Khalistani nationalists took care of the issue for us quite satisfactorily

And remember 1965? When Pakistan took advantage of India`s weak position after the debacle of 1962, the political turmoil after Nehru`s death and our economic woes?

what a ridiculous comparison

Still we managed to hold our ground and managed to counter attack before the cease fire agreement was signed.

no gains

And no one ever said that the Tamil tigers were our allies.. thats pure BS.

sure, keep telling yourself that

 

[notorious_eagle]

Wrong, India was forced to intervene after millions of refugees from EP were flooding into the NE of India. And after the UN did not take any steps, we had to do something since it directly affected our nation.

The timelines don't match. The refugees started pouring in after Operation Search Light, while FM Manekshaw is on record stating that he prepared for a year before the invasion of East Pakistan. The Indian Army was planning and simulating war games even before the first refugee set foot in India. Thus, clearly you are lying and believing whatever bull sh** propaganda that has been fed to you. We live in the age of information my friend, gone are the days when superior Indian media was able to spread Indian propaganda easily.

 

[Manticore]

Please stick to topic ... basking in the past paf glories is a waste of time any way. Always remaining in the past is not fruitful. What matters is if we have learnt from our past and were we able to mould our present and future accordingly to face the present and future threats amicably or not.. and the answer to it is nada

 

[Mani2020]

You should read different thread on this forum rather jumping in the dark.

I guess you will find answers of all your questions .

dont worry he will not be able to get anything apart from scrapped erieye , a so called fc-20 mystery that is no way near to resolve , a hyped jf-17 block2 that is so far on paper, sluggish jf-17 production or wait may be some frequent pops out of old f-16s and how can i forget about some fanboy stuff ........

 

[notorious_eagle]

1. Please give the source for that claim.

Here you go:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...arshal-about-pakistan-army-east-pakistan.html

2. Even if true, it might have been preparation for the emergency case. Such plannings are not unusual especially in tense times like the early 70s.

Armies in the 21st century simulate deterrence or punitive manoeuvres, not invasion. Indian military action from Day 1 was an invasion force, it was well rehearsed and executed well and by no means simulated punitive manoeuvres. So your argument that little old India was forced to come to the rescue of poor Bengalis against the big bad Pakistan is absolute bullocks, the Indians from Day 1 were planning to dismember Pakistan, the unrest in East Pakistan was the perfect excuse for the Indians to intervene.

So the moral of the story is, do your own research before blabbing out non sense because it makes you look extremely stupid. Make use of age of information, read up accounts from neutral sources instead of your biased textbooks .

 

[Koovie]

Here you go:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...arshal-about-pakistan-army-east-pakistan.html



Armies in the 21st century simulate deterrence or punitive manoeuvres, not invasion. Indian military action from Day 1 was an invasion force, it was well rehearsed and executed well and by no means simulated punitive manoeuvres. So your argument that little old India was forced to come to the rescue of poor Bengalis against the big bad Pakistan is absolute bullocks, the Indians from Day 1 were planning to dismember Pakistan, the unrest in East Pakistan was the perfect excuse for the Indians to intervene.

So the moral of the story is, do your own research before blabbing out non sense because it makes you look extremely stupid. Make use of age of information, read up accounts from neutral sources instead of your biased textbooks .

Lets stop this here and better stick to the topic.

Better create a thread in the history section and mention me.

 

[Pfpilot]

The underlined part is the one that really bears thinking about. War-fighting capability today is not so much about how many Squadrons or how many Divisions.
It is about the ability to replace and replenish in times of war. It is about the ability to keep critical Strategic Supplies moving in war-time. The most critical of these is Fuel or simply POL! Any country that produces less of these is even more vulnerable. And desperately needs to keep open the SLOCs open at all times as well as having a resonably wide enough Industrial Base to keep the "wheels of war moving".
How is Pakistan placed in this respect? Not very well, I am afraid. Kargil in 1999 was a case in point. Pakistan was down to 6 days of POL supply, mind you; we're not even talking about Embargoes! Which affect Combat Eqpt. but Commercial Supplies (albeit of Strategic Nature) imported under Commercial contracts.

Has anybody in Pakistan's Strategic Leadership done any worthwhile SWOT analysis in this aspect?

@Pfpilot, 1965 was a wake-up call for India in this matter; it woke up India to the need of both: maintaining security of SLOCs as well as developing atleast a reasonable industrial base to sustain war-fighting capability. Which is seemingly much less "awesome and romantic" than the fancy hardware that Armies posess.

You've brought up the very issues I find most disturbing. The lack of strategic depth virtually eliminates any truly defensive war right off the bat. From a theoretical angle, we can hold our own by fighting on our own turf. But Pakistan is so small east to west that nothing is out of the reach of the Indian military machine. Which is why, for Pakistan to fight a defensive war. It must paradoxically attack first and gain Indian territory. It is this territory that would form the buffer between India and the core Pakistani cities. It would provide Pakistan with the leverage it needs to keep the superior Indian military as far away from Pakistan proper as possible, in time for diplomacy to come through. It is possibly this is the thinking that has resulted in Pakistan preemptively attacking India in every conflict. At this point in time, I believe we no longer have the firepower to make such a scenario happen. Even though I believe the PAF can hold up its end of the bargain with the advantage of surprise. I have far larger doubts on the ability of the army, which has historically acted alone and in a cavalier manner. Similarly, I cannot foresee a scenario where the Navy can hold off the IN long enough for any gains to be consolidated.

Strategic resources are subsequently a big problem, but economic mismanagement has made the problem much worse. In a nation where natural resources are misappropriated and misused, where the common man has electricity for only a portion of the day; Pakistan is in no position to fight a long drawn out war. With the condition of the navy, as you rightly pointed out, it may not even be in a position to fight a short one. Interestingly, fighting on the defensive and with a small coast line to defend, the PN doesn't need to be some unbeatable force. But the idea that it cannot even accomplish this meager task is a sign of how badly neglected it is.

Without the ability to capture Indian territory and protect the coast for long. Without reliable allies on the Eastern border to make up for lost sea lanes. Pakistani planners are left with one realistic scenario. A limited incursion into Kashmir; undertaken with the hope that the conflict doesn't extend across the non-Kashmiri border. This reality was very much reflected in the Kargil debacle. The Pakistani military leadership seems to have realized its limitations and its strengths. Now, execution of such actions is a whole other topic. The PAF is more than capable today to provide close air support, as well as strikes within Indian Kashmir, and be a great asset to the PA. But that is because a limited conflict handicaps India, since it cannot employ its superior numbers to overwhelm Pakistani assets. There is only so much space in Kashmir and only so many approachable targets. A future conflict then, if undertaken by Pakistan, will span only a small portion of the LOC. The Pakistani military machine cannot sustain a Pakistan wide war. Our civilian and industrial centers are way too close to the border for comfort. Especially now that we cannot hide behind a perceived qualitative edge. In a limited conflict, Kargil proved, even a debacle can be turned into a ceasefire with no strategic losses. That is a pretty fool proof plan, unless Indian crosses the Punjab or Sind border...maybe foolproof isn't the right word for it.

 

[IND151]

The timelines don't match. The refugees started pouring in after Operation Search Light, while FM Manekshaw is on record stating that he prepared for a year before the invasion of East Pakistan. The Indian Army was planning and simulating war games even before the first refugee set foot in India. Thus, clearly you are lying and believing whatever bull sh** propaganda that has been fed to you. We live in the age of information my friend, gone are the days when superior Indian media was able to spread Indian propaganda easily.

Still SM needed a "go" from Indira Gandhi.

I don't think Indira Gandhi would have ordered IA to intervene, had there not been a refugee crisis and need to counter threat of NE insurgents being helped from Pakistan.

I ask you a simple question> Why India should pay for the blunders of Yahya Khan and Pakistani overlords, which resulted in 10 million EPs taking refuge in India and why it should not counter the threats posed to her by her neighbor?(Pakistan helped to NE insurgents, aiming to create unrest in North East India.)

Sometimes I wonder why Pakistan members ignore these facts?

 

[GoodBoy]

BS must be your speciality......all your chest thumping is about East Pakistan......indeed there wasn't a ratio of 5:1 but rather 10:1.....that's right...ten IAF Squadrons against a solitary f-86 unit....still the tally ratio was in PAF favour.
How did your super duper army fared under somewhat same circumstances in Sri Lanka.... would you like a link for that.
You may have helped in creation of Bangladesh by having the honour of bringing terrorism first time into this part of the world....but who has the last laugh, when the same BD, often tends to give you a bloody nose.

Keep trolling with derailing posts.