PAF Chief in Washington

[Khafee]

Hope we don't have to give up or compromise too much.
Because we are not going to get much in return i.e. we are not going to get anything from the US that is going to make the conventional balance of power any less unfavorable vis-à-vis India. It will be peanuts compared to what we will be compromising. But enough, I think, to fill the pockets of our political leaders.

We should still be negotiating for force multipliers like ... APG-83 SABR AESA Radars, Legion IRST, AIIM-9X, Raytheon MALD (Miniature Air Launched Decoys ... that fool enemy radars), Advanced DRFM Jammers and AIM-120D ... in return.

Don't know if we will get any of the above and the most we can expect to get are some used F-16s.

UPDATE: Good news PAF already has DFRM

 

[aliyusuf]

UPDATE: Good news PAF already has DFRM

Yes Exelis. But what about some years from now? Against powerful more AESA radars and 5th gen Active Radar Seekers? If you think Exelis will suffice, kindly share a link or two so that I may get up to date on this.

 

[Bossman]

US trying to give him a lollipop & i fear he may fall for it.

Grow up and learn a few things before you criticize others We have infrastructure and training in place for additional Blk 52 or better F16s. New F16s can be operational very quickly. It a best interim bang for the buck until a another new acquisition like SU 35 or J31

 

[Khafee]

Yes Exelis. But what about some years from now? Against powerful more AESA radars and 5th gen Active Radar Seekers? If you think Exelis will suffice, kindly share a link or two so that I may get up to date on this.

To be honest AESA tech has me perplexed as far as DFRM / EXELIS is concerned. I'm not sure how it would be able to handle it.

 

[batmannow]

Hope we don't have to give up or compromise too much.
Because we are not going to get much in return i.e. we are not going to get anything from the US that is going to make the conventional balance of power any less unfavorable vis-à-vis India. It will be peanuts compared to what we will be compromising. But enough, I think, to fill the pockets of our political leaders.

We should still be negotiating for force multipliers like ... APG-83 SABR AESA Radars, Legion IRST, AIIM-9X, Raytheon MALD (Miniature Air Launched Decoys ... that fool enemy radars), Advanced DRFM Jammers and AIM-120D ... in return.

Don't know if we will get any of the above and the most we can expect to get are some used F-16s.

I don't think we have much space to give up ?
But I think we can have a pretty good deal , instead just getting few air force gadgets ?
Yes sure force multiplyers are important , but we may need to get , bigger radars i mean 6th generation radars & naval gadgets from USA ?
WE won't be sitting just with few show pices ?
We need more of big guns , I think US has the knowledge that if there are just peanuts they can offer to us , then there will be no deal ?
If they want a deal then , they should balance the conventional weapon power between us & India plus they should press a solution of Kashmir ?
The main root cause of the mayhem ?

 

[A2Z]

I am sorry to say the kind of attitude you have shows the real lack of confidence. Do you think Indians ko kisi pagal kuttay nay kata ha that they went for rafales instead of SU35? Their M2000s and Rafales Trust me when i say this
1. 72 SU35 will end up costing us more than if not equal to EF. Integrating the new platform like SU35 from scratch will be longer and expensive option compare to Eurofighter. We can train crews in Saudi Arabia and if we really go for EF we can invite Saudis EF to Pakistan for exercise way before EFs comes to Pakistan. We will have maintenance as well as flying crew ready for job on day 1. We cant do that in regard to SU35 since no one close to us uses such platform and i am not talking about PLAAFs SU30s.
2. We wont have to place separate orders for Armament and will have weapons hot when EF arrives in Pakistan.
3. Ammunition and missiles such as AIM-120s, AIM-9,AGM-65 Maverick,AGM-88 are used by both f16s and EF and are being used by Saudis,Turkey and UAE some countries which are our allies. They can provide us with all of above in case of serious emergency. No such case in SU35s.
4. Uncle sam is giving us N deal and will ask us to not to pursue long range missiles, We can agree to it on the condition that they wont bloc our EF deal with Brits if they cant offer us F35 for our security.
Last point and with this i will rest my case for Eurofighter. Right now US and Brits know that Pakistan is looking for an aircraft and SU35 is a possibility. It will put Pakistan in Russian camp.US and Brits would never ever in their wildest dreams would like that to happen. We can ask for F35s as Mastan Khan suggested but in reality we wont get them for atleast another 15 years. EF is much more of a possibility than F35s. If Allah blessed us with good economy and we bring our self up then we can look to replace F16s with F35s. I hope it makes sense to you. Be bold dude never assume something is just impossible. Our faith is with Almighty who can change hearts of even the stone hearted ones.
There was a woman she use to pray to God everyday and asked everyday that God please let me win a lottery. One day God spoke to Angels and instructed them to grant her wish. Days go by and she keeps asking again and again. God asked angels that' i instructed you to grant her wish whats the matter? 'Angel reply' Oh Almighty i am ready to grant her wish but in order to win the lottery she needs to play the lottery which she never does'.

Though you have given some strong advantages that EF would offer us but I would still go with Su-35 option though I am too reluctant about Su-35 and Russia and you can ask @batmannow, that is what we were discussing, the possibilities how Russia can screw us, where he was in favor of Russia.

First of all Indians never rejected Su-35 they rejected Mig-35, in MMRCA competition (Russians entered with Mig-35). As far as you are saying that we can use the same armament that we use on our F-16 indeed that is an advantage but you know USA and west is very reluctant in supplying us the latest versions and once uncle sam says no there is nothing KSA, Turkey or UAE could do even if Brits want to they wont.

Secondly as far as F-35 is concerned we can still ask for them if we are going for the N deal (which i am against). But believe me we wont get any western 5th gen aircraft that easily or early.

Thirdly though you have a very good point about training our pilots and crew on Saudi EF but I am pretty much sure Russians would offer us (if we go for 50+ Su-35) to sent a contingent of pilots and technicians who can train on Russian Sukhois. Even if that is not offered we can do a crash course about flankers with China. JK about the term crash course what i meant was we can train our pilots and technicians on Chinese flankers.

Lastly I am of opinion that even if we are unable to get Su-35 because there are news that Russians are yet not ready to give us their deadliest 4+ gen aircraft, we should go for Chinese J-11D or may be a mix of J-11 and JH-7. I am saying this because with PCEC becoming reality we are bound to get even closer to China and hence US and west would try every possible thing to stop that. Believe me China is the next big thing and even USA and Europe have realized that. And who knows if we go for the Chinese option then we can use the same weapons on our flankers that we use on JF-17 and who knows may be on J-31 as well.

That's it!, this what i think you have all the reasons to disagree.

 

[aliyusuf]

I don't think we have much space to give up ?
But I think we can have a pretty good deal , instead just getting few air force gadgets ?
Yes sure force multiplyers are important , but we may need to get , bigger radars i mean 6th generation radars & naval gadgets from USA ?
WE won't be sitting just with few show pices ?
We need more of big guns , I think US has the knowledge that if there are just peanuts they can offer to us , then there will be no deal ?
If they want a deal then , they should balance the conventional weapon power between us & India plus they should press a solution of Kashmir ?
The main root cause of the mayhem ?

I have scant faith in the resolve of the political leadership of the country to stand up to the US in defence of our national interests. Only hope is the military leadership at the moment. We really need to mop up the terrorists and corrupt political elements from the country quickly and decisively. Only then we will be in a better position to negotiate in the future.

Actually, at the moment, we are between a rock and a hard place.

The whole situation in Washington is such that AIPAC (American Israel Public Affairs Committee) and the Indian lobby have a very strong say in matters of defence sales to Pakistan. AIPAC has a strong say in everything and the Indian lobby has a strong say in South Asian sales.

They (the US) can absolutely cripple our economy if they have a mind to. It all depends on how much pressure is being exerted on the Obama administration from the pressure groups within to cap Pakistan's nuclear program.

However, the only thing that will come to the rescue will be our un-documented economy. Like it has in the past. In a country of 97% tax evaders, that economy is thriving and is at least as big as the documented economy if not bigger. But conducting international trade / transactions will become an issue. We would need 3rd party guarantors to even import pop-corns. It will be economically and diplomatically a very weak situation.

What I see happening is that Pakistan acquiescing to capping the nuclear program to its current level to weather the current pressure till that time when I our economy picks up satisfactorily. The US will try to offer some carrots and maybe some line of credit, so that Pakistan is not totally alienated from American influence.

Lets see how things pan out.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Kuch bhi sath na laye , to kiya ker ne gai the ?

 

[batmannow]

Though you have given some strong advantages that EF would offer us but I would still go with Su-35 option though I am too reluctant about Su-35 and Russia and you can ask @batmannow, that is what we were discussing, the possibilities how Russia can screw us, where he was in favor of Russia.

First of all Indians never rejected Su-35 they rejected Mig-35, in MMRCA competition (Russians entered with Mig-35). As far as you are saying that we can use the same armament that we use on our F-16 indeed that is an advantage but you know USA and west is very reluctant in supplying us the latest versions and once uncle sam says no there is nothing KSA, Turkey or UAE could do even if Brits want to they wont.

Secondly as far as F-35 is concerned we can still ask for them if we are going for the N deal (which i am against). But believe me we wont get any western 5th gen aircraft that easily or early.

Thirdly though you have a very good point about training our pilots and crew on Saudi EF but I am pretty much sure Russians would offer us (if we go for 50+ Su-35) to sent a contingent of pilots and technicians who can train on Russian Sukhois. Even if that is not offered we can do a crash course about flankers with China. JK about the term crash course what i meant was we can train our pilots and technicians on Chinese flankers.

Lastly I am of opinion that even if we are unable to get Su-35 because there are news that Russians are yet not ready to give us their deadliest 4+ gen aircraft, we should go for Chinese J-11D or may be a mix of J-11 and JH-7. I am saying this because with PCEC becoming reality we are bound to get even closer to China and hence US and west would try every possible thing to stop that. Believe me China is the next big thing and even USA and Europe have realized that. And who knows if we go for the Chinese option then we can use the same weapons on our flankers that we use on JF-17 and who knows may be on J-31 as well.

That's it!, this what i think you have all the reasons to disagree.

Most f your points are in right direction , please let me know where , & when Russians has declined us the SU-35?
what is your new source ?
Indian tabloids ?
Getting a nuclear deal with USA at least will clear any obstacle with Russians & Chinese .
We can get further more heavy guns , if USA is not willing to give us , the gadgets we wanted from them ?
Or we can put a list to them , which we knows they can't give ?
I mean let's say RAPPTOR ?lolzz
im sure they will make rolling eyes ?lolzz
But then they can't stop us , getting big guns from others cause they can't do that ?
It a manuover we should try it out , I'm sure then US can be caught pants down ?lolzz

 

[A2Z]

Most f your points are in right direction , please let me know where , & when Russians has declined us the SU-35?
what is your new source ?
Indian tabloids ?
Getting a nuclear deal with USA at least will clear any obstacle with Russians & Chinese .
We can get further more heavy guns , if USA is not willing to give us , the gadgets we wanted from them ?
Or we can put a list to them , which we knows they can't give ?
I mean let's say RAPPTOR ?lolzz
im sure they will make rolling eyes ?lolzz
But then they can't stop us , getting big guns from others cause they can't do that ?
It a manuover we should try it out , I'm sure then US can be caught pants down ?lolzz

Yes the sources from which I have come to know are linked to eastern neighbor. But I don't have a good feeling about the nuclear deal. However you are right we should go for big guns from China and Russia. The last thing I remember is uncle sam agreed to give us AH-1Z (which they had denied us previously) as soon as we confirmed Mi-35 deal with Russian and began talks for Mi-28. But one thing that worries me is they gave us the AH-1Z but on the other hand offered indians Apache.

 

[batmannow]

Yes the sources from which I have come to know are linked to eastern neighbor. But I don't have a good feeling about the nuclear deal. However you are right we should go for big guns from China and Russia. The last thing I remember is uncle sam agreed to give us AH-1Z (which they had denied us previously) as soon as we confirmed Mi-35 deal with Russian and began talks for Mi-28. But one thing that worries me is they gave us the AH-1Z but on the other hand offered indians Apache.

That's their game , they push one side to get other other side ?lolzz
Yankees do it regularly ?
Ksa & Israel ?lolzz
Tit for tat ?
You think any Indian media outlet will , be praising Russian /Pakistan SU-deal ?
Till now with their full crying , they can't bring any single statement from Russian officials , who can deny the whole episode ?
All what they got , is Russian embsy just making them cool , we are not going to give Pakistan any deadly weapons ?
Which they are not ?
A few sqdrns of SU- 35s won't make PAF rulling the skies over the whole world ?
But It will bring a much needed higher level of defence ?
i am sure if we ever enter in any deal with US , first thing we.will as is our freedom to decide whatever suits us ?

 

[omegalamba7XL9]

Though you have given some strong advantages that EF would offer us but I would still go with Su-35 option though I am too reluctant about Su-35 and Russia and you can ask @batmannow, that is what we were discussing, the possibilities how Russia can screw us, where he was in favor of Russia.

First of all Indians never rejected Su-35 they rejected Mig-35, in MMRCA competition (Russians entered with Mig-35). As far as you are saying that we can use the same armament that we use on our F-16 indeed that is an advantage but you know USA and west is very reluctant in supplying us the latest versions and once uncle sam says no there is nothing KSA, Turkey or UAE could do even if Brits want to they wont.

Secondly as far as F-35 is concerned we can still ask for them if we are going for the N deal (which i am against). But believe me we wont get any western 5th gen aircraft that easily or early.

Thirdly though you have a very good point about training our pilots and crew on Saudi EF but I am pretty much sure Russians would offer us (if we go for 50+ Su-35) to sent a contingent of pilots and technicians who can train on Russian Sukhois. Even if that is not offered we can do a crash course about flankers with China. JK about the term crash course what i meant was we can train our pilots and technicians on Chinese flankers.

Lastly I am of opinion that even if we are unable to get Su-35 because there are news that Russians are yet not ready to give us their deadliest 4+ gen aircraft, we should go for Chinese J-11D or may be a mix of J-11 and JH-7. I am saying this because with PCEC becoming reality we are bound to get even closer to China and hence US and west would try every possible thing to stop that. Believe me China is the next big thing and even USA and Europe have realized that. And who knows if we go for the Chinese option then we can use the same weapons on our flankers that we use on JF-17 and who knows may be on J-31 as well.

That's it!, this what i think you have all the reasons to disagree.

You want to know worst case scenario with Russia? You can see as of today that Putin didnt forget the cold war. Do you think they will forget the nation who was at the forefront of destroying them? Do you really think incase of war against India Russians will keep providing the spare and ammo? Look we had f16s US blocked us refused us but guess what even with all of this we got everything for f16s through back channels especially thanks to Turkey and till this day its the best aircraft in our armor.Can you disagree with that?As i said if it was Chinese offer i would support it eyes closed and if their 5th Gen is perfected and inducted by 2022 then by 2025 we can have one or two squadrons.
Never trust Russians plz understand that.
Again EF uses same armament as f16 and in much better and effective way giving our F16 pilots a better info/advantage as well. Imagine 8 f16s fully armed supported by fully Armed EF it can guide F16s AIM-120s as well and to better range. So taking our top two platforms to next level. If any of you watched Dragonball Z then the example is kind of fusion where Vageta and Goku merge and become Vegeto more powerful and ultimate warrior.
EF is a front line fighter for 4 countries Brits/Spain/Germany/Itlay and these countries will continue to make EF better and better. SU35 on the other hand well Russians are looking at 5th Gen tech and if they end not finding another customer they might not care for it. PS its smart Brains from one country Russia VS smart Brains from 4 smart countries. My argument is clear regarding now and future.

 

[black-hawk_101]

Any possibility of buying some more F-16s???
32 F-16 Block-52s
used F-16 Block-15s with MLU-4
12 F-16 Block-15s might arrive with this visit with 2 already delivered to PAF



Shahbaz AB needs a total of:
50 F-16 Block-52s
03 P-3C AEW&Cs Hawkeye-2000
UAVs
Pumas

Masroor AB needs a total of:
50 F-16 Block-15s MLU-3/MLU-4
UAVs
Pumas

 

[A2Z]

You want to know worst case scenario with Russia? You can see as of today that Putin didnt forget the cold war. Do you think they will forget the nation who was at the forefront of destroying them? Do you really think incase of war against India Russians will keep providing the spare and ammo? Look we had f16s US blocked us refused us but guess what even with all of this we got everything for f16s through back channels especially thanks to Turkey and till this day its the best aircraft in our armor.Can you disagree with that?As i said if it was Chinese offer i would support it eyes closed and if their 5th Gen is perfected and inducted by 2022 then by 2025 we can have one or two squadrons.
Never trust Russians plz understand that.
Again EF uses same armament as f16 and in much better and effective way giving our F16 pilots a better info/advantage as well. Imagine 8 f16s fully armed supported by fully Armed EF it can guide F16s AIM-120s as well and to better range. So taking our top two platforms to next level. If any of you watched Dragonball Z then the example is kind of fusion where Vageta and Goku merge and become Vegeto more powerful and ultimate warrior.
EF is a front line fighter for 4 countries Brits/Spain/Germany/Itlay and these countries will continue to make EF better and better. SU35 on the other hand well Russians are looking at 5th Gen tech and if they end not finding another customer they might not care for it. PS its smart Brains from one country Russia VS smart Brains from 4 smart countries. My argument is clear regarding now and future.

I agree with your concerns about the Russians. I too have similar concerns regarding their friendship with India and our past with USSR. But on the other hand i am of opinion that we should not go for just the western weapons no doubt EF is a good jet probably the best 4+ gen aircraft but past has taught us that we can not trust the west and USA blindly. We should also start talks about the acqusition of chinese J-11 or J-16. Moreover if we can become partners with the chinese in one of their 5th gen programs then it would be cherry on top.

 

[Humble Analyst]

Kuch bhi sath na laye , to kiya ker ne gai the ?

Sir Tuxedo lenay gaye thay Brooks brother ka shayad, aur shayad aap ko saat lay jaatay to acha Tuxedo bhee mil jaata aur 2 squadron F18 kay?