PAF Chief flies mission out of Skardu

[imiakhtar]

May I ask what is your professional background? Are you an aviation enthusiast or have you ever piloted an aircraft?

Multi engine rated. I fly and glide as a hobby.

My day job is working low level management for ARM processors. Before that ops manager for British Airways at Heathrow/Cranebank initially scheduling pilot sim training.

 

[Viper 94]

Multi engine rated. I fly and glide as a hobby.

My day job is working low level management for ARM processors. Before that ops manager for British Airways at Heathrow/Cranebank initially scheduling pilot sim training.

Cool than I am sure you know that the irregularities you are mentioning are fairly common especially for small regional airlines around the world and pakistan is no exception

 

[imiakhtar]

Cool than I am sure you know that the irregularities you are mentioning are fairly common especially for small regional airlines around the world and pakistan is no exception

Not really. It is not an issue in any of the legacy airlines of the West. You'll find that Turkey, Pakistan and Korea are the biggest offenders who have a serious issues with basic piloting skills. It's an asian cultural phenomena unfortunately which their piloting communities are yet to grow out of. I am Captian = I can do no wrong!

Much of it stems from the fact that their pilot management is conservative ex-military.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Yes.

Accident reports are available on the CAA Pakistan website.

The Bhoja 737 captain was Noorullah Afridi formerly of 8 Squadron Pioneers PAF
Can't member the names of the others but the reports are published on the aforementioned CAA website.

What BS. There was no diversion fuel in the Aircraft. The aircraft was hit by wind sheer during approach. Take Arshad Jalil to court for the murder, why blame the pilot who died doing all he could to save the plane? Non-sense, and can only come from non-pilots.

The only two incidents you mentioned which are available are the Airblue and Bhoja air.

The airblue one is thus with the civilian captain and PAF FO:
During initial climb, the Captain tested the knowledge of FO and used harsh words and snobbish tone, contrary to the company procedures/norms.

8.4 The question / answer sessions, lecturing and advises by the mishap Captain continued with intervals for about one hour after takeoff.

8.5 After the intermittent humiliating sessions, the FO generally remained quiet, became under confident, submissive, and subsequently did not challenge the Captain for any of his errors, breaches and violations.
http://www.caapakistan.com.pk/Upload/SIBReports/SIB-337.pdf

The reminder of the report is available int eh above link, and DOES NOT to even an ounce back up your claim for the PAF pilot being at fault.


Lets go to Bhoja which is the only verifiable example you have given:

1.It was important to find out the reasons of CRM failure which otherwise could have averted the accident. It was observed during the process of investigation that Captain of mishap aircraft was one of the instructional staff when FO was undergoing his initial flying training at PAF Academy as a cadet. Captain always remained a fatherly figure in the mind of the FO. Captain looked after the FO in SAI and later became a factor in his joining Bhoja Air. In Bhoja Air FO flew a total of 23 flights, 16 of which were flown with Captain. FO had an average flying experience and not undergone any simulator training of automated aircraft / flight deck management. That is why, FO kept on reminding the Captain and suggesting a go around to get out of unsafe / hazardous set of conditions after entering the severe weather, but remained reliant on Captain to take the required actions. The FO should have taken over the controls of aircraft to execute a go around once there was inadequate response / inaction by the Captain.

2. In case of Bhoja Air, the Flight BHO-213 was being managed by the cockpit crew who were not professionally competent to operate the flight in the given set of unsafe / severe bad weather conditions. FO did not have formal simulator training for operating an automated flight deck, on the other hand Captain underwent simulator training in South Africa under the supervision of South African instructor and the simulator check was not monitored by Flight Standard Inspector CAA Pakistan. It is observed that during these simulator sessions Captain was not exposed to wind shear / TAWS / GPWS exercises and their recovery techniques. Due to the absence of required training, Captain kept relying on automation to provide him a solution whereas he should have followed the Boeing FCOM / QRH recommended procedures.

3The captain while undergoing his simulator training had seven “satisfactory with brief (SB)” entries. The cockpit crew of his experience, is not expected to perform in this manner, as seven SBs grading of such experienced cockpit crew are considered as poor performance. After the arrival of Captain from South Africa, neither any specific recommended training was imparted nor his performance to manage the automated flight deck evaluated. This was a serious mistake on the part of Bhoja Air management in grooming / training of Captain.

The fault then lies more so within Bhoja's management rather than anything to do with the pilots training. If you are going to hire an inexperienced captain to fly for you then you are asking for trouble.

So again, I ask the merit of your blanket statement? Or is it something based on pure personal opinion and not backed up with any factual evidence?

Thank you for sharing facts of the case. It is always easy for freshmen to blame pilots, lets alone say Ex-PAF pilots are rational and unsafe. Our arm has been flying millions of hours of civil birds in Pakistan and elsewhere. Airblue, pilot was over-confident, fatigued, and rash with co-pilot. Since the future of every FO is with the IP Captain, they become meek, and it is a cultural problem in Pakistan. The poor chap tried so hard. I heard his last call on RT, put tears to my eyes. Air Blue management should not have never allowed a pilot who brought a flight back from Europe, then was up all night for prayer, totally fatigued to take "just a two hour flight"

Bhoja, I have already said, Arshad Jalil should be put on trial for Murder. It was not that you had an in-exp pilot, but there was NO diversion fuel in the aircraft as per management decision. Where would the plane go?

Both tragedies were avoidable. I feel for the human loss carried on

 

[imiakhtar]

What BS. There was no diversion fuel in the Aircraft. The aircraft was hit by wind sheer during approach. Take Arshad Jalil to court for the murder, why blame the pilot who died doing all he could to save the plane? Non-sense, and can only come from non-pilots.

The facts are in the caa report Mr Bullshido.

http://www.caapakistan.com.pk/Upload/SIBReports/SIB-350.pdf

The amount of fuel uplifted wasn't a factor.

The pilots didn't perform an approach briefing.

The pilots didn't carry out windshear recovery.

The pilots didn't carry out stall recovery.

Poor airmanship.

What BS. There was no diversion fuel in the Aircraft. The aircraft was hit by wind sheer during approach. Take Arshad Jalil to court for the murder, why blame the pilot who died doing all he could to save the plane? Non-sense, and can only come from non-pilots.



Thank you for sharing facts of the case. It is always easy for freshmen to blame pilots, lets alone say Ex-PAF pilots are rational and unsafe. Our arm has been flying millions of hours of civil birds in Pakistan and elsewhere. Airblue, pilot was over-confident, fatigued, and rash with co-pilot. Since the future of every FO is with the IP Captain, they become meek, and it is a cultural problem in Pakistan. The poor chap tried so hard. I heard his last call on RT, put tears to my eyes. Air Blue management should not have never allowed a pilot who brought a flight back from Europe, then was up all night for prayer, totally fatigued to take "just a two hour flight"

Bhoja, I have already said, Arshad Jalil should be put on trial for Murder. It was not that you had an in-exp pilot, but there was NO diversion fuel in the aircraft as per management decision. Where would the plane go?

Both tragedies were avoidable. I feel for the human loss carried on

Whose the one BS'ing now with fatigue excuses?

Though the Captain was scheduled for this flight only a night before, yet the aircrew were well rested and the “prescribed rest period (FDTL)” violation did not take place.

Pakistan CAA flight duty rest requirements I'll give them credit are very good and are based on the EASA flight crew rest requirements.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

how is all all relevant to PAF chief flying from Skurdu? Admins?

The facts are in the caa report Mr Bullshido.

http://www.caapakistan.com.pk/Upload/SIBReports/SIB-350.pdf

The amount of fuel uplifted wasn't a factor.

The pilots didn't perform an approach briefing.

The pilots didn't carry out windshear recovery.

The pilots didn't carry out stall recovery.

Poor airmanship.



Whose the one BS'ing now with fatigue excuses?

Though the Captain was scheduled for this flight only a night before, yet the aircrew were well rested and the “prescribed rest period (FDTL)” violation did not take place.

Pakistan CAA flight duty rest requirements I'll give them credit are very good and are based on the EASA flight crew rest requirements.

Thank you for your kind comment. You have only the internet reports to go by. Good for you. This whole discussion has no relevance to this thread. I don't know what you are trying to prove, or what you are on about. Go find something better to do kid.

 

[imiakhtar]

how is all all relevant to PAF chief flying from Skurdu? Admins?



Thank you for your kind comment. You have only the internet reports to go by. Good for you. This whole discussion has no relevance to this thread. I don't know what you are trying to prove, or what you are on about. Go find something better to do kid.

Let us discount the facts from the report and go on hearsay and your idea or low fuel uplift. Do you not see how not uploading fuel also supports my argument of poor airmanship?

Pilots arrive for pre flight and they're given their "package".

The package contains sector traffic, flight plan route, load plan NOTAMS, SIGMET charts etc

Once boarding is complete and fuel loaded, the dispatcher/ground agent visits the pilots with the loadsheet which the pakistan CAA REQUIRES the captain to sign off. If at this point, the Captain is not happy with the airworthiness of the aircraft or any other matter including fuel uplift, he SHOULD NOT SIGN the load sheet and paperwork.

By doing so, he accepts responsibility for the flight. It is legally, his aircraft, not Mr CEO sat on a beach in Dubai.

If you are a school bus driver, would you accept a vehicle with 4 bold tyres?

 

[Viper 94]

Not really. It is not an issue in any of the legacy airlines of the West. You'll find that Turkey, Pakistan and Korea are the biggest offenders who have a serious issues with basic piloting skills. It's an asian cultural phenomena unfortunately which their piloting communities are yet to grow out of. I am Captian = I can do no wrong!

Much of it stems from the fact that their pilot management is conservative ex-military.

Of course. It boils down to culture. British airways has its fair share of pilot errors and it is an international airline. The airlines in question are small regional airlines with fleets of a few old aircraft
But asians are just inherently bad pilot just like how they are bad drivers

 

[araz]

Okay Mr Bullshido, I'll humour you.

Let us discount the facts from the report and go on hearsay and your idea or low fuel uplift. Do you not see how not uploading fuel also supports my argument of poor airmanship?

Pilots arrive for pre flight and they're given their "package".

The package contains sector traffic, flight plan route, load plan NOTAMS, SIGMET charts etc

Once boarding is complete and fuel loaded, the dispatcher/ground agent visits the pilots with the loadsheet which the pakistan CAA REQUIRES the captain to sign off. If at this point, the Captain is not happy with the airworthiness of the aircraft or any other matter including fuel uplift, he SHOULD NOT SIGN the load sheet and paperwork.

By doing so, he accepts responsibility for the flight. It is legally, his aircraft, not Mr CEO sat on a beach in Dubai.

If you are a school bus driver, would you accept a vehicle with 4 bold tyres?

OK. Reread your post again. Are you NOW not blaming the pilot rather than the copilot. And the pilot was not Ex PAF.
I take your point about chest thumping and a lot of this goes on in any environment where the nationalistic card is played. I will also grant that the asian countries and small reqional airlines are known to bend the rules and this often leads to problems. I also will grant that submissiveness to rampant aggressive behaviour from a senior is an asian trait found not only in the pilots but also in other fields. This leads to a lot of professionals from the subcontinent working under environments where the white man would simply punch the senior's lights out.
HOWEVER,
A. The mentioned incidents point to a general lack of sticking to regulations rather than an individual's fault
B. The topic of discussion has digressed a lot from basic thread of discussion and therefore if you want to continue this discussion I would suggest you open another thread relevant to what you want to discuss.
Regards
A