PAF CAS confirmed the SU-30MKI kill in addition to MiG-21 Bison - Alan Warnes

[Shane]

I don't disagree with some of your posts on this thread but was only trying to debate a different perspective than the exception in my earlier post.

Moving onward towards part 2...

In India's case, this is the Su-30 + Brahmos combination which I suspect will be launched with full cooperation of the Western suppliers of radars and AEWACS to Pakistan.

I agree with you that India may choose Brahmos to attack Pakistan. Our response but more than that, our readiness needs to be well coordinated and coherent across all spheres of armed and strategic forces. India may be looking to improvise its strategic doctrine in case of an all out war.

I think there are two factors that give some edge to a SU-30 + brahmos combination as a first strike weapon. As opposed to ground or sea based Brahmos launch platforms, the Aerial version does look to posses slight edge in: Element of surprise due to even less time to strike inland after launch and a deeper strike capability.

Brahmos, if used in numbers, can make up for the possible short commings of Indigenous - less reliable and risky Indian BMs arsenel.

What I'm trying to say is that a Brahmos in whatever Air, ground or sea launch version, should be considered a clear step up the escalation ladder towards an all out nuclear war. This should be made clear by Pakistan to the Indians in no uncertain manner - use of Brahmos means Nuclear war.

There is no doubt that Brahmos is a formidable supersonic weapon. The Chinese were working on a similar Supersonic CM CX-1 or HD-1 also discussed by @Windjammer in another thread. Pakistan should fast track it or a similar supersonic option to equal the odds and should be able to throw the Chinese version of the Russian tech back at the indians while keeping the option open for using Babur and Raad as needed.

In India's case, this is the Su-30 + Brahmos combination which I suspect will be launched with full cooperation of the Western suppliers of radars and AEWACS to Pakistan.

Your other notion about western support to India is more sobering for the Air Force.

Do you think US and Lockheed will be of much help to India against their own PAF F16s ? vs Russian or French jets if India does not go for F-21 or F18, which looks like it won't as India wants more Rafael.

Europeans on the other hand in Dasault, BAE and SAAB etc look to be more involved in India and inclined to help along with the Russians and obviously Israelis.

Pakistani Erieye capabilities may have already been shared and known but Pakistan's EW equipment has US, Italian, Chinese and some other diverse and un-disclosed origins with indigenous tweeks as well, so I doubt that the Indians will get around it entirely, much to their dismay, despite western help.

Whatever the strategy and countermeasures they come up with, It shall still be a huge gamble on their part despite the knowledge gathered after the Feb skirmish.

I think I will post more about how India may be looking to improvise its strategic doctrine.

 

[CriticalThought]

I don't disagree with some of your posts on this thread but was only trying to debate a different perspective than the exception in my earlier post.

Moving onward towards part 2...



I agree with you that India may choose Brahmos to attack Pakistan. Our response but more than that, our readiness needs to be well coordinated and coherent across all spheres of armed and strategic forces. India may be looking to improvise its strategic doctrine in case of an all out war.

I think there are two factors that give some edge to a SU-30 + brahmos combination as a first strike weapon. As opposed to ground or sea based Brahmos launch platforms, the Aerial version does look to posses slight edge in: Element of surprise due to even less time to strike inland after launch and a deeper strike capability.

Brahmos, if used in numbers, can make up for the possible short commings of Indigenous - less reliable and risky Indian BMs arsenel.

What I'm trying to say is that a Brahmos in whatever Air, ground or sea launch version, should be considered a clear step up the escalation ladder towards an all out nuclear war. This should be made clear by Pakistan to the Indians in no uncertain manner - use of Brahmos means Nuclear war.

There is no doubt that Brahmos is a formidable supersonic weapon. The Chinese were working on a similar Supersonic CM CX-1 or HD-1 also discussed by @Windjammer in another thread. Pakistan should fast track it or a similar supersonic option to equal the odds and should be able to throw the Chinese version of the Russian tech back at the indians while keeping the option open for using Babur and Raad as needed.


Your other notion about western support to India is more sobering for the Air Force.

Do you think US and Lockheed will be of much help to India against their own PAF F16s ? vs Russian or French jets if India does not go for F-21 or F18, which looks like it won't as India wants more Rafael.

Europeans on the other hand in Dasault, BAE and SAAB etc look to be more involved in India and inclined to help along with the Russians and obviously Israelis.

Pakistani Erieye capabilities may have already been shared and known but Pakistan's EW equipment has US, Italian, Chinese and some other diverse and un-disclosed origins with indigenous tweeks as well, so I doubt that the Indians will get around it entirely, much to their dismay, despite western help.

Whatever the strategy and countermeasures they come up with, It shall still be a huge gamble on their part despite the knowledge gathered after the Feb skirmish.

I think I will post more about how India may be looking to improvise its strategic doctrine.

Brahmos by itself can be dealt with. It's the combination of Western support, rooting of Western supplied electronic equipment, and destruction of defences and infrastructure that has me worried. The real question is, are our military planners even prepared psychologically and mentally to discuss and prepare for such a scenario? Our very doctrine is flawed because we view India as an independent enemy working without material support from Western Allies. This battle is more of vision, foresight, wisdom, cunning, and perceptiveness. We have lame, ineffective leaders who are unable to take a strong stand on world forums. More than that, they seem ever ready to demean, ridicule, and denigrate Pakistan. What kind of leaders go around the world telling people we have terrorists in the country? What kind of leaders are dying to surpass their masters in declaring we have terrorist organizations in the country? During Musharraf's regime, there was talk about becoming the 51st state of the United States. These traitors are still on important posts and this worries me. I have no confidence in Imran Khan and Qamar Javed Bajwa. Increasingly, I am seeing Western agenda being rolled out systematically. The country is basically run by agents coming in from the West. They need a handful of key Generals at the top in their pockets and the capitulation is complete. The Su-30 and Brahmos option comes into play when this plan fails. Is our top leadership prepared if and when such an eventuality arises?

From a purely technical point of view, Pak military forces have no defence against Brahmos today. We are not able to withstand a saturation strike and respond with precision and expedience. Anyway, we have derailed the thread too far already. I suggest further discussion be continued on a more relevant thread.

 

[Shane]

Part 3, The Brahmos + S400 combination the real threat, and the possible improvisation in Indian strategic doctrine.

Are the extremist Indian leadership looking to adopt a version of Soviet first and third strike doctrine or strategy against Pakistan by looking towards deploying S400 defence umbrella along with an all out saturated offense strategy against our strategic assets?

(Here is an interesting read on the topic of the soviet strategy:https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP87M00539R001001350032-4.pdf)

There is no doubt that India is desperately looking to avenge its bloodied nose at the hands of PAF since the 27th but they are not that desperate to start an all out war but any miscalculation on either side may end up being just that.

So who is working towards a more survivable outcome? If India is then so should Pakistan do whatever it can to counter it.

They might again try another balakot style strike But until the integration of S400 and Rafael in meaningful numbers, Indians cannot even afford to think about such an adventure.

Meanwhile, Pakistan must be at work too. We should keep enhancing our defence and strike capabilities to keep the nuclear detterent valid as much as possible.

• This is why we need to induct CX-1 or HD-1 or similar Supersonic Cruise Missile and Aerial as well as Submarine platforms that can launch it.
• This is why we need to work towards an anti missile shield capable of thwarting Indian missile attacks.
• This is why we need to make more use of the mountains of Baluchistan and Northern Areas for our strategic assets.

All out war is too desperate a notion at any time but the key for Pakistan to stop a belligerent India from any adventurism and to even think it is just our bluff and to keep them from trying to challenge it...To make the best use of the time at hand before India acquires and integrates the tools of war it is busy accumulating.... is to keep the fingers on the Nuclear Strike button, so to speak but more importantly... work towards a more formidable, operationally and strategically spread out and diverse capabilty in view to deter the new Indian strategy and render it Ineffective.

This why @masterchief_mirza a nuclear armed Pakistan has better and more option to in sha Allah prevail against India where the Japs failed against the US.

I was going to write an article, Insha Allah, explaining just how much you give away in any skirmish and why ROEs need to be updated. Look out for it.

Kindly do tag me when you do. I eagerly await your article about the obvious needs for changing aerial rules of engagement ROEs since the region long became an active BVR, Standoff weapons theater. It will be all the more interesting when both sides deploy VLRAAM.

 

[Telescopic Sight]

And it has squarely put the IAF on the back foot and sent the planners back to the drawing board.
Ask anyone from India if the IAF aircraft are venturing anywhere near the LOC.

I have asked. Nothing has changed from the IAF side. Business as usual.
On the other hand in the PAF.....Closed airspace, dispersed F-16's, leaves cancelled, weddings postponed....
Speaks volumes on who is on the back foot.

 

[Ultima Thule]

I have asked. Nothing has changed from the IAF side. Business as usual.
On the other hand in the PAF.....Closed airspace, dispersed F-16's, leaves cancelled, weddings postponed....
Speaks volumes on who is on the back foot.

what the fcuk you talking about, everything is nomal in Pakistan, closed airspace is only for india, dispersed f-16 doesn't mens Paf is on the back foot, its tactics of up coming war @Telescopic Sight

 

[HawkEye27]

I have asked. Nothing has changed from the IAF side. Business as usual.
On the other hand in the PAF.....Closed airspace, dispersed F-16's, leaves cancelled, weddings postponed....
Speaks volumes on who is on the back foot.

Wah bhaiya wah!!! They moved their whole IAF to forward bases just like us but you have to just blame us???

I can assure you many officers had their weddings in April. So chill out.

 

[Zulfiqar]

what the fcuk you talking about, everything is nomal in Pakistan, closed airspace is only for india, dispersed f-16 doesn't mens Paf is on the back foot, its tactics of up coming war @Telescopic Sight

Yes we dispersed some F-16s as far as turkey.

We will disperse more aircrafts (probably JF-17s) to turkey in June as well just to be on the safe side.

Corridor is being closed for flights to and from India. Why should we give economic benefit to India. They can take the long way to Afghanistan and other countries and spend precious fuel.

 

[Flight of falcon]

I have asked. Nothing has changed from the IAF side. Business as usual.
On the other hand in the PAF.....Closed airspace, dispersed F-16's, leaves cancelled, weddings postponed....
Speaks volumes on who is on the back foot.

Seriously and this is being the proof of being on backfoot?
When you have a coward living next door who attacks you when it’s cloudy then you have to be careful. Everything is normal in Pakistan. And check your facts.... airspace is closed for Indian planes. Here is the result ... 300 caror loss for air Indian alone in two months. That will be 1800 caror loss in one year for financially struggling airline. Maybe Modi will cause air India to go bankrupt and wipe off thousands of jobs which will add to 45 year high unemployment in India. Wonder when will Indians make a movie on this and have a dance number too.


https://www.google.ca/amp/s/m.busin...-pakistan-airspace-restrictions/1/341498.html

 

[Ultima Thule]

Corridor is being closed for flights to and from India. Why should we give economic benefit to India. They can take the long way to Afghanistan and other countries and spend precious fuel.

There is threats that international passenger flight coming from India will sabotage by India and India is blame for Pakistan @Zulfiqar

 

[Zulfiqar]

There is threats that international passenger flight coming from India will sabotage by India and India is blame for Pakistan @Zulfiqar

Yes, that too.

 

[Mace]

There is threats that international passenger flight coming from India will sabotage by India and India is blame for Pakistan @Zulfiqar

How old are you @pakistanipower ??

No really

 

[Ultima Thule]

How old are you @pakistanipower ??

No really

why you asking @Mace
'There was rumors on our media that the there was serious threats about that @Mace

 

[ziaulislam]

How old are you @pakistanipower ??

No really

Never before a civilian airliner has been shot down during an intense air warfare going on..indian logic..
Than it goes on to hit its own mi17

Had corridor not been shut down..India would have shot down Boeing 787 and would have called it an F16, same way its probably called the mi17 an f16, a "f16" which the Americans never built

 

[Mace]

why you asking @Mace
'There was rumors on our media that the there was serious threats about that @Mace

If true Pak media is juvenile and cannot but believe run by over zealous nationalistic imbeciles with no independent thought.

With Modi getting the world attention on put a spot light on alleged Pak origin militancy he will not give any space for India-Pak interaction in any kind or form. India will not touch Pak by a long barge pole.

Never before a civilian airliner has been shot down during an intense air warfare going on..indian logic..
Than it goes on to hit its own mi17

Had corridor not been shut down..India would have shot down Boeing 787 and would have called it an F16, same way its probably called the mi17 an f16, a "f16" which the Americans never built

You have all necessary intellect to be the editor of some super duper Pak media outlet.

 

[Ultima Thule]

If true Pak media is juvenile and cannot but believe run by over zealous nationalistic imbeciles with no independent thought.

hint from govt/military officials, and your (indian) media over zealous nationalistic imbeciles that always blabbering anti Pakistani propaganda @Mace

With Modi getting the world attention on put a spot light on alleged Pak origin militancy he will not give any space for India-Pak interaction in any kind or form. India will not touch Pak by a long barge pole.

you're not center of the world, you're just a puppet of US./West to contain/conceal China, The word ALLEGED say all story, that you're blaming Pakistan without single/solid proof @Mace