PAF and the JXX Fifth Gen Fighter

[Donatello]

Lol, it looks more like a cruiser than a fighter!

 

[S10]

Lol, it looks more like a cruiser than a fighter!

The long airframe is designed to accomodate supercruise. China tends to focus more on manoevurability and supercruise when it comes to 5th generation fighters. The philosophy is that dogfights are inevitable between LO aircrafts, thus the faster and more agile one wins the day.

For that purpose, they even sacrificed low observability. With that said, it is not to say that J-20 will be a huge target on radar. Great efforts were still made to lower the plane's RCS, and is head above the rest of 4.5 generation in terms of signal management.

 

[abaseen99]

 

[SBD-3]

The long airframe is designed to accomodate supercruise. China tends to focus more on manoevurability and supercruise when it comes to 5th generation fighters. The philosophy is that dogfights are inevitable between LO aircrafts, thus the faster and more agile one wins the day.

For that purpose, they even sacrificed low observability. With that said, it is not to say that J-20 will be a huge target on radar. Great efforts were still made to lower the plane's RCS, and is head above the rest of 4.5 generation in terms of signal management.

See this is where Americans stand firm, they maintain "unless you cant be seen, you cant be hit". The theme of maneuverability comes second as all this maneuverability will only help when J-20 is able to detect the presence of Raptor. While Raptor will certainly have the privilege of first sight, first shot putting J-20 on defensive right from initiation. The Raptor philosophy is to keep hidden and make BVR fight unless its absolutely necessary to go WVR. Keeping this in view, I am still a big proponent of "stealth first" philosophy

 

[abaseen99]

 

[abaseen99]

Aug 9, 2011
PAF and Next Generation Stealth Fighter Program J-2X Confirmed

PAF and Next Generation Stealth Fighter Program J-2X Confirmed ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS

PAF recently sent a group of represenatives to CAC. They looked at a few designs for their 4th gen, and in general they were pretty satisfied."

Chengdu has an export pre-4th gen (5th gen in US/Russian standard)designated as J-2X.Pakistan and third world countries have demands for it. Of course, 611 can expect to get some order from Chinese air force also. It is about the size of F-35, and the design has already been presented to Pakistan."

 

[abdulbarijan]

Hey every one,
Well seems like our friends from the east are "concerned" again for what we will have against their 5th generation fighter.
Although it is a matter of concern for us but the fact is this thread will just be having fights with ultimate result of it being closed.

As far as opinion on the topic goes,it is really funny the fact that every time a new development in IAF takes place (which is good 10 years away) suddenly some concerned friends go and open up a thread about it in attempt to gain satisfaction.

Every one knows this i mean first it was the BVR threat from IAF which had our friends concerned suddenly up came the 500 AMRAAM deal with our friends falling back on the course of their "vs" psyche , same was the case with the Indian MMRCA deal with Indian "concerns" of how PAF will match up,after insider news that FC-20 will be what we selected to counter MMRCA deal there were people going how in the heck could a simple upgraded J-10 hold against the likes of typhoon and rafale etc..the answer came again with the huge upgrades on the J-10

This time its no different only names and generations have changed the concept is the same which always results the same

-Time line (we will induct faster since we signed the deal first vs no we have a history of inducting faster than u guys (JFT,F-7 PG))

-Stupid comparisons (consider this against what u have LOL!! vs oh yeah well consider this )

-End of thread (Mods coming and deleting the thread)


Coming to J-XX,J-2X or Pak-FA
Time line:
Considering what India did with the MMRCA deal and the long delays of defense projects the time line for PAK-FA seems highly unlikely to be 2018 plus like i said the history of Pakistan and China coming up with solutions in very short time span ..
No one surely knows
VS BS:
PAk-FA vs J-XX or J-2X
Indian friends going on about how Indo-Russia friendship produced such great jets like MKI etc while we pakisranis going about how China and Pakistan have stuck together and have produced such great solutions in such short time eg JF-17 and FC-20's

No one surely knows whose gonna come on top cuz we dont even know the capabilities of a jet that is a prototype (PAk-FA) and the jet that is as of now on paper (J-XX or J-2X)

So the ultimate answer of this will be "No one surely knows"
The only thing that can de done is either a little fantasy or a little speculation both of which yield catastrophic fights in the forums..

Like one wise "chipmunk" said
"Opinions ain't facts take em and let em go"

 

[S10]

See this is where Americans stand firm, they maintain "unless you cant be seen, you cant be hit". The theme of maneuverability comes second as all this maneuverability will only help when J-20 is able to detect the presence of Raptor. While Raptor will certainly have the privilege of first sight, first shot putting J-20 on defensive right from initiation. The Raptor philosophy is to keep hidden and make BVR fight unless its absolutely necessary to go WVR. Keeping this in view, I am still a big proponent of "stealth first" philosophy

If Americans did not care about manoevurability, they would have picked the YF-23 over the YF-22 in their ATF selection. There was a documentary about the YF-23 program, which the Northrop team described that YF-23 had better low observable characteristics and was faster than the YF-22. Yet, it was the more manoevurable YF-22 that won the day. RCS and radar detection range have a diminishing return value.

Only time will tell which philosophy is right.

 

[Pfpilot]

The f-22 was chosen in the early 90s. Missiles were yet to reach the levels of capabilities we see today. High offbore sight missiles with the ability to pull 40 to 50gs were not a reality at that time. The f-35 is a far greater indicator of what the future holds according to the USAF. Some of the limitations of the f-35 may be due to cost, but the Americans would never let a substandard product enter service. Advanced avionics and missiles have reached a point where they can counter, to a great extent, super maneuverability.
It doesn't matter what maneuver an aircraft is pulling when an aim-9x can move faster and out turn it...or atleast that is what the Americans are relying on.

 

[S10]

See this is where Americans stand firm, they maintain "unless you cant be seen, you cant be hit". The theme of maneuverability comes second as all this maneuverability will only help when J-20 is able to detect the presence of Raptor. While Raptor will certainly have the privilege of first sight, first shot putting J-20 on defensive right from initiation. The Raptor philosophy is to keep hidden and make BVR fight unless its absolutely necessary to go WVR. Keeping this in view, I am still a big proponent of "stealth first" philosophy

Don't know how to explain this, but there is a math formula to calculate detection distance. Basically, a function of ^4.

E =[P x G x RCS x L x T]/(4 x pi^3 x R^4)]

To keep it simple, to reduce radar detection range by half, your RCS has to be 1/16 of the original value. For example, if a radar's detection range against a target with RCS of 3m^2 is 200 kilometres, then the same radar would detect a target with 0.065m^2 target at 76.7 kilometers. Of course, that is in ideal and interference-free environment. Now you should understand why China place manovurability and supercruise ahead of low radar obserability.

A good article in English: http://www.mar-it.de/Radar/RCS/RCS_xx.pdf

 

[ziaulislam]

a vs thread is rdiculous..as no aircraft faces the other alone...
also there cant be PAK FA before 2018 ..i think it would be inducted along j-20 in 2020s..unless russians go for downgraded one
and the indian version..it hasnt yet got the prototype

so we can be sure about it ..it wouldnt be there before 2020
similarly the LCA is not coming before 2015(MK2) and the MRCA is suspected to get even more delays

 

[S10]

The f-22 was chosen in the early 90s. Missiles were yet to reach the levels of capabilities we see today. High offbore sight missiles with the ability to pull 40 to 50gs were not a reality at that time. The f-35 is a far greater indicator of what the future holds according to the USAF. Some of the limitations of the f-35 may be due to cost, but the Americans would never let a substandard product enter service. Advanced avionics and missiles have reached a point where they can counter, to a great extent, super maneuverability.
It doesn't matter what maneuver an aircraft is pulling when an aim-9x can move faster and out turn it...or atleast that is what the Americans are relying on.

False.

Americans certainly didn't think so when they picked the YF-22 over the YF-23. If supercruise and manoevurability did not matter, then we'd be seeing B-2's carrying loads of A2A missions in air superiority role.

 

[Safriz]

since you guys are on about F-22 raptor...mind giveng your opinion in this thread
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/124571-mystery-bandpass-radome-3.html#post2023418

 

[Storm Force]

I would be incredible surprised and very impressed if the PAF could buy and maintain a FIFTH generation platform.

FROM wat i hear the unit cost of F35 wil be $135m each

PAK FGFA around $100m each.

THE CHINEASE J20 will cost at least $70-80m each based on fc20 costing around $35m each.

SOME PEOPLE HAVE COMPLETELY FORGOTTON THAT BOTH CHINA & INDIA enjoy massive budgets TODAY and in the future too. THEY CAN AFFORD MULTI BILLION $$$$ air assets today and in the future.

PAF budgets are a tiny fraction

soft loans will take you so far

EVEN THE RICH EUROPEANS are turning their noses up to F35 PRICE ISSUES some of them will upgrade existing fighters and others will turn to cheaper options like gripen ng...

 

[Storm Force]

Current defense budgets

CHINA is around $90 billion officially INDIA around $35 billion and PAKISTAN around $8 billion. THE speed at which both china & india are growing their GDPs this gap will grow even bigger relative to pakistan.

FIFTH gen fighters are very expensive and at least 10 years away for china (j20)& india/russia(pak fa) and probably 15-20 years for export countries like Pakistan