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PAF and the JXX Fifth Gen Fighter



J-20
china 5TH GEN fighter

China's new fighter, the stealthy J-20 has now completed its first flight after several weeks of preparations.

Posted by David A. Fulghum at 1/6/2011 10:41 AM CST

Seeing the J-20 stealth fighter with its nose wheel off the ground in a high-speed taxi test in Dec. was a shock to everyone except the Chinese, apparently.

The immediate impact of the new fighter’s pre-flight tests and the development of other advanced conventional weapons was downplayed by Vice Admiral David J. Dorsett, deputy Chief of Naval Operations for information dominance and director of naval intelligence (N2/N6).

“I’m more worried about Chinese game-changing capabilities in non-kinetic [areas such as information dominance, network invasion and electronic warfare],” he says. “I am most concerned about China’s focus on trying to develop [the ability] to dominate the electromagnetic spectrum, to counter space capabilities and to conduct cyberactivities.

“The other concern I have is China’s ability to become operationally efficient in a sophisticated, complex, joint war-fighting environment,” Dorsett says. “I don’t see China with those capabilities now. I do see them delivering individual components and weapons systems [like J-20 and DF-21D], but until they acquire proficiency [with them] how competent are they really going to be?”

The Chinese military’s self-proclaimed timeline is mid-century, Dorsett says. In that context, he denies that the Pentagon is overestimating its threat.

“I’m not alarmed,” Dorsett says. “I am intrigued by developments and am quite interested in the quantities and different types of technologies that we didn’t expect or overestimated.”

There is a marked relationship between China’s booming economy and its military buildup, he points out. But there are obvious shortfalls.

“The Chinese don’t have a great integrated ISR capability or an anti-submarine capability at all,” Dorsett says. “They don’t demonstrate a sophisticated level in joint warfighting. They are at the early stages of operational proficiency across the board. What would be dangerous is underestimating the timeline of synchronizing these various element.”

Other Washington-based intelligence officials say they are watching the J-20’s testing with interest.

“They have done several high-speed taxis [with the nosewheel off the ground,” says another veteran analyst. “They could still be working out some kinks before they try an actual first flight.”

There also are a lot of unknowns about the aircraft’s real importance.

“Operational impact is a tough call to make at this point, given that this plane, even if it flies, is not going to be full-up 5th gen [aircraft],” the analyst says. “In essence, this is going to be a novelty for the next decade before it starts to roll off the series production lines and gets to the line units in any numbers that would impact any of our mission planning. A lot of things can happen, good and bad, between now and then to either speed this up or severely put the brakes on things. As far as radar cross-section goes, this is not an F-22, nor should we be thinking that they are going for low RCS right out of the chute,” the analyst says.

An Achilles' Heel of Chinese high performance aircraft has been engines. The Chinese have failed so far to produce an indigenous engine that has the performance they need for a world-class fighter. Under earlier Chinese military doctrine, which favored mass over advanced technology, the People's Liberation Army Air Force was equipped with adapted versions of 1950s Soviet designs with old-technology engines. Analysts differ in their assessments of China’s first high-performance engine, the Shenyang WS-10, but recent images of the J-11B fighter—China’s bootleg version of the Sukhoi Su-30—appears to show a nozzle design that differs visibly from the Russian AL-31F and resembles that of WS-10 engines displayed at air shows.

Dorsett says the J-20 program’s existence was known, but “One of the things that is … true is that we have been pretty consistent in underestimating the delivery and initial operational capability of Chinese technology weapons systems.” Two recent examples of misanalyses have been the J-20 fighter, the DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missile, a high-performance fighter engine design and advanced air combat missile.

“How far along are they?,” he says. “I don’t know. They clearly have an initial [J-20] prototype. Is it advanced and how many trials, tests and demos do they have to go through before it becomes operational? That’s not clear to me.”

However, the evidence of the design’s sophistication is mounting.

The J-20 is designed to carry new weaponry with some of it tucked away internally. China is continuing an effort to expand the military’s air-to-air missile inventory. Although Avic officials so far have refused to discuss what comes after the PL-12A radar-guided medium-range missile, new information suggests work is progressing on several enhanced versions. These include a combined solid-motor, ramjet-powered missile, the PL-21. The missile, with a single inlet for the ramjet, may have undergone ground tests last year.

Work may be slightly more advanced on the PL-12D, a ramjet-upgrade of the basic PL-12 with more modest changes to the airframe and less end-game maneuverability than the PL-21 would feature. Chinese industry also appears to be working on the PL-12C with smaller after control fins for internal carriage on the J-20. The mid-body fins are believed to be similar to the basic PL-12 and PL-12B with improved electronic counter-countermeasures.

The close-in battle would use the PL-10, whose design may resemble South Africa’s Denel A-Darter.

China’s ability to increasingly use standoff weapons, also in air-to-ground and anti-ship missile roles, is already affecting planning among potential adversaries. Japanese defense officials, for example, are showing interest in missiles with greater ranges for engaging Chinese threats earlier, and there are also discussion in the U.S. about the need for weapons with greater engagement capability.
 
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PAF has already hands full with the induction of JF-17s, the F-16s, Awacs, and latter on the FC-20. This is indeed the bird PAF should be looking at but the right time would be 2020 and beyond. I would say somewhere around 2025.
 
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This is what i got courtesy to EagleHannan

"A few weeks ago, I showed the leaked pics to some PAF personal and they agreed that top brass of PAF has always known of this project and the pictures are indeed the J-20. However, like all Pakistani acquisations, we are NOT interested in J-20 as it is. China is where the Stealth 5th generation MRCA will be bought from but that wont exactly be J-20.
The way PAF deals with and has always delath with Chinese manufacturers (JF-17s are exception) is that we let them present what they have. Then analyse and give them our own requirements and integrate our man power and share information we get from our own sources into the project.

Eaxmples: F-7MG --> F-7PG (Chinese couldnt come up with avionics so we bought it from theird party back when sun used to shine well in west for PAF)
J-10 --> J-10B

LIke I said before, we have no input so far in this J-20. A few have laid eyes on it. My source told me, it will be another J-20 --> J-20-B story when Chinese will put it on Table. Chances are the thing will NOT be on table anytime before 2015. For many reasons, including sales of J-10. Any plane operating with PAF is a free marketing for Chinese companies (I was so proud of it when an AVIC personal said it to me in the presence of PAF personal that the world trusts PAFs standards).
Chinese want to see J-10B in considerable number before even offering J-20. The money + interest of Chinese companies is in NOT offering Pakistan J-20 unless J-10B is flying with PAF in number.
PAF exercised their judgment back in 2007, PAF could either choose to go with large number of F-16s or bring in J-10B. My info on this is, Chinese clearly denied to do anything with J-10 unless the orders of F-16s are cut down. PAF did burn their boats after agreeing to it (I am glad they did. Thanks Allah for that) and sent thier team for a long tern partnership with China (Currently located in Chingdu). It was only after then that the Chinese let in PAF/PAC engineers tweak with J-10s and we saw the J-10B.
Time line for J-20 in small batch can easily be after 2016 and only then PAF might be invited to jump in.
 
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To be blunt, I think J-20 is beyond Pakistan's financial means. I would not be surprised that the plane will cost two to three times as much as J-10B, with a price tag approaching 100 mil per unit by the time of its induction.
 
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China pushes J-10A fighter for export to Pakistan, Egypt

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HONG KONG, May 19 (UPI) -- One member of the Russian military delegation to last November's Zhuhai Air Show described the Chinese-Russian arms trade as being in a long and drawn-out winter.

A representative of Rosoboronexport, the agency that handles exports of Russian defense equipment, declined to comment on China's possible export of J-10A fighters equipped with Russian AL-31F engines.

China did have its own indigenous engine on display at the show, the Taihang turbofan engine, with a thrust power of 13,200 kilograms, or 29,101 pounds. However, some experts say it is only 12,800 kilograms -- 28,219 pounds. The Taihang's exterior design and modular structure, as well as the processing and polishing technologies of the core machine and engine blades, seem to be an improvement over China's previous aviation engines, but it is still far behind similar systems from Russia and Western countries.

Representatives of China's Liming Motor Corp. refused to answer questions about the engine's performance features. It is unclear why China decided to introduce this engine to the international market when it has not elected to use it on its own J-10 fighters.

A Chinese military source said China has been promoting the J-10A to Egypt, but it appears that no substantial negotiations have yet taken place. An authoritative source from the Russian military industry has said that Russia will not allow China to use its engines in exported planes if it perceives such sales as having a negative impact on Russia's own export market. Egypt was once a major client of Russian arms, though it now buys little other than spare parts.

Pakistan, on the other hand, is not a traditional client of Russian aircraft. Therefore, Russia allowed its engines to be used on the JF-17 fighters China is developing with Pakistan. The same arrangement may therefore hold for the J-10A.

The basic price for the J-10A is about $29.3 million, according to the Chinese source. Considering that China aims to sell this fighter primarily to oil-producing countries -- and is prepared to trade it for oil and other natural resources -- it could be an attractive option for such countries.

A general assessment of the export version of the J-10A fighter can conclude that its engine has less thrust than the F-16 Block 52, while its radar system is more or less on par with the Zhuk-ME multifunction radar on the Russian MiG-28 SMT. This is because Russia's Phazotron Design Bureau exported to China three sets of its Zemchug multi-role radar systems after 2001, allowing China to come up with its own version of the Zhuk-ME radar. This radar has a detection range of 120 kilometers, or 75 miles, for 5-square-meter aerial targets and can attack four targets in the air simultaneously.

In terms of the diversity and performance of its weapon systems, especially long-range attack weapons, the J-10A lags far behind the F-16 Block 52. The air-to-air missiles loaded on the J-10A fighter at the Zhuhai exhibition were SD-10A AAMs with compound hard points. The SD-10A is a medium-range active radar-guided air-to-air missile upgraded from the SD-10, with its maximum range extended to 70 kilometers, or 43 miles. Its length is 3.9 meters, around 13 feet; diameter, 203 millimeters, around 8 inches; weight, 198 kilograms, just under 440 pounds, and maximum speed Mach 5, 3,800 miles per hour at sea level.

The PL-12 air-to-air missiles currently in service in the People's Liberation Army Air Force have undergone similar upgrading. Short-range missiles include the new-generation PL-5EII and PL-9C. The PL-5EII is equipped with a multichannel infrared seeker, the latest laser proximity fuse and a rocket motor with a non-smoke propellant.

The air-to-ground weapons on the J-10A mainly include the LT-2 laser-guided bomb and the FT series of Global Positioning System-guided bombs. In recent years, China has been imitating U.S. aviation combat weapons, a trend that is reflected in the weapon platforms on the J-10A, including its imitation U.S. joint direct attack munition serial bombs.

Latest news, Latest News Headlines, news articles, news video, news photos - UPI.com
 
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@pakblood

old article buddy try to check out the date of the article before posting ,also this is not j-10 related thread rather its about J-20/J-xx
Try to post any info regarding J-10 in respective thread designed for J-10

REGARDS
 
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Chengdu-J-XX-VLO-Prototype-31S.jpg
 
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For Pakistan the problem is balancing their Finances.

If They go for 200 Thunders with steady improvement its fine but it will eat up $4 billion in 10 years ie 2010-2020.

That will leave some careful juggling to do ie

FC20 X 36 OR 72 = $1.5 OR $3 BILLION

or more used F16s on the cheap with some more F16.52 thrown in

Save the money and buy a $70-$90m JXX IN 2020

u r rite
i was thinking the same
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but on the other hand i think Pak should keep making jf-17 thunder
they can give PAF much profit and that profit can play some role to ger Fifth generation fighter
 
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T-50 Pak-fa is 10 years away, currently PAF is worried about LCA threat.:undecided:
Regarding inductions PAF goal is to induct 200 new fighter jets in the period of 2010-2015, after 2015 talks for 5th generation will start.:)

Better come out of dreams. :lol: PAK-FA is only 5 years away.
 
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A fifth generation air force capability is one of four key areas that India has a head-start on Pakistan in, and in which Pakistan seems to be dragging its feet. The others are: space technology (both civilian and defensive), nuclear reactor technology (civilian and defensive) and a missile shield. We are currently doing a decent job of narrowing the gap India had managed on in the later 1990s and early 2000s in the defense field, but we must also look ahead.

As much as I don't appreciate the connotations of the thread starter, he has, nevertheless, identified a key issue. We are so content and happy with the JF-17s and FC-20s that we've failed to realize that, whatever the expected time frame of the PAK-FA is, India still has a significant jump on us. I would wholeheartedly support any move by Pakistan to divert funds from our F-16 and JF-17 procurement plans towards the famous (or infamous) J-XX. If not, at least we should try and lobby the US for the F-35.

Lets be rational, PAF has been a defensive force, add a lost decade, it becomes worse. JFT is indeed an enchantable achievement as it has gifted PAF a capability that it never had before i.e. manufacture a fully capable 4th generation combat aircraft. PAF's multidimentional expansion i.e. avionics, radar, airframe etc are certainly appriciable whether you value it or not. And JFT is indeed the right fit for any airforce which seeks to strike a balance between economy and performance. Well it may not be the best out there, but its certainly much better than the most we currently house i.e. mirages, F-7s etc.

Asking for a 5th gen right away, is honestly, too much IMHO. So let the PAF finish with what it has, in its hand, in the best manner. I said before, lets just forget about IAF right now, let them do what they are doing. Lets just concentrate on own garage. PAF is doing nicely at the moment, we are nearing the induction of our 2nd squadron. We will probably stay ahead of IAF on MMRCA as well or will at least stay at par. F-16 fleet upgrades are also going on schedule.

So just one thing i.e. IAF goning for PAK-FA contract, should not be taken as a sole indicator of analysis. I said it before, at the moment, PAF has no information about what it can ask from its 5th Gen, as also pointed by our ACM. Let the FC-20 come in with J-20 technologies and then PAF get through them. Secondly let Chinese get a hold of their baby and evolve and mature it. When PAF is done with FC-20 induction. Then we will be able to chalk out that what more do we want over our FC-20 in 5th Gen. So let PAF do its Job and hope that it is done with utmost decency.
 
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