PAF AND IAF 4th gen Aircraft Losses, shocking comparison

[Pak-Canuck]

Aircraft attrition is a norm for all air forces. These can be attributed to accidents (eg bird hits), poor maintenance or enemy action. However the frequency of attrition is what distinguishes competency. We can go on into big detail about the 3rd generation fighter plane attrition but for now let's focus just on the 4th gen fighters such as the F-16, Mig-29, Mirage 2000's, SU-30's and JF-17's

FIRST, the PAF

Since induction PAF has lost 9 F-16's, according to the most up to date database:

http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/mishaps-and-accidents/airforce/PAF/

Interesting fact in which 8 of those losses happened in 1994 or earlier, and that SINCE 1994 there has only been one loss which was in 2009.

And to my knowledge there have been 2 JF-17's lost (someone correct me if I am wrong), meaning a total of 11 4th generation planes lost since induction, and ONLY 3 SINCE 1994. A pretty decent record.

NOW, the IAF

Since induction, the IAF has lost an admitted 42 4th generation planes, this is according to their own database:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Database/Accidents/

These include:
12 Mirage 2000's
19 Mig-29's (including the one that went down couple of days ago in Goa)
11 Su-30's (NOT INCLUDING the possible Feb 27th one, in which case it would be 12 and therefore 43 lost in total )

and SINCE 1994 COMPARED TO THE PAF 3, IAF lost 33 4th gen planes (8 Mirage 2000, 14 Mig-29's, and 11 Su-30's)


Pretty stark comparison

 

[truthseeker2010]

Aircraft attrition is a norm for all air forces. These can be attributed to accidents (eg bird hits), poor maintenance or enemy action. However the frequency of attrition is what distinguishes competency. We can go on into big detail about the 3rd generation fighter plane attrition but for now let's focus just on the 4th gen fighters such as the F-16, Mig-29, Mirage 2000's, SU-30's and JF-17's

FIRST, the PAF

Since induction PAF has lost 9 F-16's, according to the most up to date database:

http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/mishaps-and-accidents/airforce/PAF/

Interesting fact in which 8 of those losses happened in 1994 or earlier, and that SINCE 1994 there has only been one loss which was in 2009.

And to my knowledge there have been 2 JF-17's lost (someone correct me if I am wrong), meaning a total of 11 4th generation planes lost since induction, and ONLY 3 SINCE 1994. A pretty decent record.

NOW, the IAF

Since induction, the IAF has lost an admitted 42 4th generation planes, this is according to their own database:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Database/Accidents/

These include:
12 Mirage 2000's
19 Mig-29's (including the one that went down couple of days ago in Goa)
11 Su-30's (NOT INCLUDING the possible Feb 27th one, in which case it would be 12 and therefore 43 lost in total )

and AFTER 1994 COMPARED TO THE PAF 3, IAF lost 33 4th gen planes (8 Mirage 2000, 14 Mig-29's, and 11 Su-30's)


Pretty stark comparison

If you will compare it with number of flying hours (f-16s were introduced in 80's with m29 and m2000 in late 80's and mki in late 90's) and usage in combat, you will get more shocks and operational availability of these planes with respective air forces will be icing on the cake.......

Be proud of your airforce, its yours most professional and spearhead arm of pak mil.

 

[Shah_Deu]

You simply cant compete with Superpowa

 

[Pak-Canuck]

If you will compare it with number of flying hours (f-16s were introduced in 80's with m29 and m2000 in late 80's and mki in late 90's) and usage in combat, you will get more shocks and operational availability of these planes with respective air forces will be icing on the cake.......

Be proud of your airforce, its yours most professional and spearhead arm of pak mil.

Yes Sir! I believe you are referring to this video from 11:00 onwards

It is a little tragedy that all the pilots usually get the glory and the ground maintenance staff are usually overlooked, but it really is the discipline, competency, skills and hard work of each one of those individuals that makes each one of them heroes in my book!

 

[Tejas Spokesman]

Two wrong data (In both Mirage 2000 incident of Oct 2004 & Su-30 incident of Apr 2012 the jets were fully repaired back into service).
So correct figure is 40.

Now India accquired a total of 470 4th gen jets as of Nov 2019 ( 266 Su-30s, 125 MiG-29, 59 Mirage 200, 20 Tejas) which means the crash rate is only 8.5% of fleet strength.

Pakistan accquired around 85 F-16s & 112 JF-17 (total 197) so crash rate is 5.6% of fleet strength.
A very minor difference considering that US made planes have a much lower crash rate than Russian ones.

 

[Shah_Deu]

Two wrong data (In both Mirage 2000 incident of Oct 2004 & Su-30 incident of Apr 2012 the jets were fully repaired back into service).
So correct figure is 40.

Now India accquired a total of 470 4th gen jets as of Nov 2019 ( 266 Su-30s, 125 MiG-29, 59 Mirage 200, 20 Tejas) which means the crash rate is only 8.5% of fleet strength.

Pakistan accquired around 85 F-16s & 112 JF-17 (total 197) so crash rate is 5.6% of fleet strength.
A very minor difference considering that US made planes have a much lower crash rate than Russian ones.

Even going by your calculations, PAF has a total of 444 active fighter jets and not 197 (76 F-16s, 108 JF-17s, 90 Mirage IIIs, 90 Mirage Vs and 80 F-7s) - This is not Indian forum where you can fool everyone Tom, Dick and Harry. Even by your logic PAF crash rate will be just 2.4%. By the way even Russian airforce having all russian jets wont be having such a higher crash rate than IAF.

What i find most interesting is the fact that IAF has crashed more original products (Mig21's) than the copied versions (F-7s) of PAF! wow just wow! Do i need to talk about the quality of pilots after that?

 

[Pak-Canuck]

Even going by your calculations, PAF has a total of 444 active fighter jets and not 197 (76 F-16s, 108 JF-17s, 90 Mirage IIIs, 90 Mirage Vs and 80 F-7s) - This is not Indian forum where you can fool everyone Tom, Dick and Harry. Even by your logic PAF crash rate will be just 2.4%. By the way even Russian airforce having juts russian jets wont be having such a higher crash rate than IAF.

What i find most interesting is the fact that IAF has crashed more original products (Mig21's) than the copied versions (F-7s) of PAF! wow just wow! Do i need to talk about the quality of pilots after that?

Shah_Deu, we were just comparing the 4th gen aircraft, so the number he quoted was correct (i.e the 197 PAF inducted)

However within that comparison it was pretty much agreed, since 1994 PAF lost 3 Fourth gen planes due to attrition (THAT'S 3 in 25 years) compared to 33 the IAF lost.

And yes if you include the 3rd gen planes the comparison becomes even more shocking

 

[Tejas Spokesman]

Even going by your calculations, PAF has a total of 444 active fighter jets and not 197 (76 F-16s, 108 JF-17s, 90 Mirage IIIs, 90 Mirage Vs and 80 F-7s) - This is not Indian forum where you can fool everyone Tom, Dick and Harry. Even by your logic PAF crash rate will be just 2.4%. By the way even Russian airforce having all russian jets wont be having such a higher crash rate than IAF! Superpowa alone has brought such a bad name to the Russian products which the whole world combined couldnt!

What i find most interesting is the fact that IAF has crashed more original products (Mig21's) than the copied versions (F-7s) of PAF! wow just wow! Do i need to talk about the quality of pilots after that?

Did you even bother to read the title, it is strictly regarding 4th gen jets only which is why I am only including 4th gen jets for both IAF & PAF. So figure for PAF is 197 4th gen jets and for India it is 470 4th gen jets.


Also PAF Mirage and F7 crashes have been pretty high since 2012 as 25 Mirages and F7s crashed causing deaths of 17 pilots in comparison IAF lost 22 Mig 21/23/27 since 2012 causing deaths of just 4 pilots.

 

[truthseeker2010]

Also PAF Mirage and F7 crashes have been pretty high since 2012 as 25 Mirages and F7s crashed causing deaths of 17 pilots in comparison IAF lost 22 Mig 21/23/27 since 2012 causing deaths of just 4 pilots.

This is from 2014 onward:

26 fighters going down in last five years killing 12 pilots and seven other crew members.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...jets-crash-deaths-injuries-1561536-2019-07-03

 

[Shah_Deu]

@Tejas Spokesman I have balls enough to admit that i skipped the '4th gen' from the topic.

 

[loanranger]

I just realised something. PAF orchestrated an extremely complex and audacious attack namely Operation Swift Retort. By the Grace of God everyone lived to tell the tale. I don't know if we will be able to say that again. Meanwhile we all know how much India suffered due to their little stunt on 26th of Feb.
Quality if not Quantity is the name of the game.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Two wrong data (In both Mirage 2000 incident of Oct 2004 & Su-30 incident of Apr 2012 the jets were fully repaired back into service).
So correct figure is 40.

Now India accquired a total of 470 4th gen jets as of Nov 2019 ( 266 Su-30s, 125 MiG-29, 59 Mirage 200, 20 Tejas) which means the crash rate is only 8.5% of fleet strength.

Pakistan accquired around 85 F-16s & 112 JF-17 (total 197) so crash rate is 5.6% of fleet strength.
A very minor difference considering that US made planes have a much lower crash rate than Russian ones.

You are ignoring one very important aspect about IAF. The poor air worthiness of jets like SU30 and MIG29, a well documented fact, erode the number of jets comparison you mentioned. If you cant fly them, you wont crash. Simply put.

 

[Tejas Spokesman]

This is from 2014 onward:

26 fighters going down in last five years killing 12 pilots and seven other crew members.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...jets-crash-deaths-injuries-1561536-2019-07-03

That includes all types (and aircrew losses includes even helo), here is list of your link you gave:

You are ignoring one very important aspect about IAF. The poor air worthiness of jets like SU30 and MIG29, a well documented fact, erode the number of jets comparison you mentioned. If you cant fly them, you wont crash. Simply put.

Wrong.
Su-30 airworthiness crossed 70% whereas IAF MiG 29 always had more than 75% airworthiness & even IN MiG 29K is at 68% since 2018.

It is actually PAF F-16 fleet which had quite low flight hours in the 90s due to US sanctions forcing PAF to reduce flying hours to save spares.

 

[Cuirassier]

Your US/Russian generalization doesn't work for the SU30 fleet which has suffered about 3 times lesser attrition than the F16 fleet. Neither does it work for the M2K fleet, which has the highest attrition rate among the 4 Gens, yet it's non-Russian/Chinese.

Two wrong data (In both Mirage 2000 incident of Oct 2004 & Su-30 incident of Apr 2012 the jets were fully repaired back into service).
So correct figure is 40.

Now India accquired a total of 470 4th gen jets as of Nov 2019 ( 266 Su-30s, 125 MiG-29, 59 Mirage 200, 20 Tejas) which means the crash rate is only 8.5% of fleet strength.

Pakistan accquired around 85 F-16s & 112 JF-17 (total 197) so crash rate is 5.6% of fleet strength.
A very minor difference considering that US made planes have a much lower crash rate than Russian ones.

 

[ziaulislam]

Two wrong data (In both Mirage 2000 incident of Oct 2004 & Su-30 incident of Apr 2012 the jets were fully repaired back into service).
So correct figure is 40.

Now India accquired a total of 470 4th gen jets as of Nov 2019 ( 266 Su-30s, 125 MiG-29, 59 Mirage 200, 20 Tejas) which means the crash rate is only 8.5% of fleet strength.

Pakistan accquired around 85 F-16s & 112 JF-17 (total 197) so crash rate is 5.6% of fleet strength.
A very minor difference considering that US made planes have a much lower crash rate than Russian ones.

Few comments
Jf17 is supposedly worse than Russian fighters.
F16 earlier losses were due to war on soviet front
Adding tejas which doesnt has FOC to the fleet is interesting
Mirage2000 is supposedly the most reliable phone