PAC Making It's Mark in Manufacturing

[KaiserX]

Apparently 11 JF17B3s have rolled off the assembly line. This is great work especially taking into consideration the first protoype flew early this year. From testing-manufactering-intraduction the PAF has really mastered the JF17 supply chain processes to the point most developed nations today havnt.

This would imply that the PAC can product minimum 10 airframes within 6 months meaning 20-25 within a whole year. For a new fighter (B3) this is an amazing achievement.

In 2022, I expect the PAF will induct 25 J10C+ 25 JF17B3. That is easily 2-3 Squadrons replaced. This is larger in size than most airforces in the world, that too with 4.5 generation fighters. That means all our F7s shall be retired by the end of this year. Going forward this 2023 any new aircraft inducted shall replace our ROSE Mirages 1 for 1.

 

[The Accountant]

Sorry but we are not

We are manufacturing many parts locally, assembling them together and also with imported parts manufactured in China and Russia

 

[Warking]

Not just that but this F-16 damaged during a bombing mission was also recovered by the PAC.


View attachment 806176

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Hmm if america didn't restrict us is it possible for us to reverse engineer an F16?

 

[Windjammer]

Sorry but we are not

Please do some research before being in denial outright.

The JF-17 production line at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra.

The manufacturing of JF-17 Thunder fighter at AMF has brought Pakistan among select group of countries of aviation world. Attainment of this capability in less than a quarter of a century itself speaks of the highest standards of dedication that PAC Engineers and technicians showed since the word go.

https://www.pac.org.pk/amf

 

[The Accountant]

Please do some research before being in denial outright.

View attachment 806719
The JF-17 production line at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra.

The manufacturing of JF-17 Thunder fighter at AMF has brought Pakistan among select group of countries of aviation world. Attainment of this capability in less than a quarter of a century itself speaks of the highest standards of dedication that PAC Engineers and technicians showed since the word go.

https://www.pac.org.pk/amf

What do u mean by manufacturing ? Do we have any alloy manufacturing company in Pakistan ? We cant even make high tnsile steel for cars then light alloys for aircraft is another matter.

Same is the story of engine and transmission.

We are manufacturing some wire harness and PCBs those too designed by someone else and provided us the CAD to print it on the PCB printing machines also imported from outside.

So sorry this is assembly of parts procured from multiple sources around the world not manufacturing.

I am working in engineering sector so i knows rhe capability of our country very well.

Solution for the problem starts from recognizing and accepting it and then finding a solution.

 

[Bossman]

What do u mean by manufacturing ? Do we have any alloy manufacturing company in Pakistan ? We cant even make high tnsile steel for cars then light alloys for aircraft is another matter.

Same is the story of engine and transmission.

We are manufacturing some wire harness and PCBs those too designed by someone else and provided us the CAD to print it on the PCB printing machines also imported from outside.

So sorry this is assembly of parts procured from multiple sources around the world not manufacturing.

I am working in engineering sector so i knows rhe capability of our country very well.

Solution for the problem starts from recognizing and accepting it and then finding a solution.

Yes we do have an alloy steel company in Pakistan. Peoples Steel Mills. Makes Maraging Steel for nuclear centrifuges, blanks for tank and artillery guns and much more. And do you think the whole range of from very large to micro CNC machines including 5 axis and fluid presses at PAC are used for? No body claims, Pakistan in making aircraft engines only 4/5 country in world can do that. So educate yourself and give credit where due.

 

[The Accountant]

Yes we do have an alloy steel company in Pakistan. Peoples Steel Mills. Makes Maraging Steel for nuclear centrifuges, blanks for tank and artillery guns and much more. And do you think the whole ranges of from very large to micro CNC machines including 5 axis and fluid presses at PAC are used for? No body claims, Pakistan in making aircraft engines only 4/5 country in world can do that. So educate yourself and give credit where due.

In which world r u living man?

Steel mill got shut down almost 8 years back. Wakeup to the real world.

Do u consider CNC machines and presses manufacturing?

Small worlshops also have CNC machines so u can call them manufacturer as well ?

We are doing just assembly of parts imported...

 

[Bossman]

In which world r u living man?

Steel mill got shut down almost 8 years back. Wakeup to the real world.

Do u consider CNC machines and presses manufacturing?

Small worlshops also have CNC machines so u can call them manufacturer as well ?

We are doing just assembly of parts imported...

Read again: People’s Steels Mill. You are not only Ill informed, you cannot also read. If using CNC machines and fluid cell presses is not manufacturing and I don’t know what else is? You are obviously not an engineer. Manufacturing can be small or big. Size does not define manufacturing. Do you even know the types of Machine Tools are installed are at PAC and their origin? The concept that everything should be made under one roof never ever existed and shows a layman’s lack of knowledge. Even all of the Ford model T was not made under one roof.

 

[Windjammer]

 

[TigerOfMysore]

Guys ... We are not manufacturing but assembling.

This is ok but not something very big ... PAC is better than others but everywhere in the world military has the latest technologies available with them as they have the biggest budgets.

Sorry but countries much smaller than us are doing much better than us like south africa italy.

So yes this is ok but not something out of the world

I was going to stay quiet on this topic but after seeing the above response thought of jumping in. Again these are my thoughts only, based upon personal experience and knowledge.

Pakistan is not a manufacturing country. Outside of textiles and a few other items like surgical and sports goods we are not an established manufacturing country. Defence manufacturing is a totally different ball game. To the above poster's point, Pakistan is an assembly, rebuild and repair outfit. That btw requires a high level of expertise but is completely different from manufacturing.

Manufacturing requires the ability to develop input items. For example lets take a HUD on a plane. There are roughly three elements that go into manufacturing a HUD. First is the materials (the ploymers, the different type fo impact resistant glass, the specialized coatings, the refraction proofing etc). The second element are the micro-electronics and controllers for projection units and other image creation systems and combiners. And the third is the software layer (both chipset specific but also processing and application level), to enable and combine all telemetries and deliver a functioning HUD. I wont even get into the HMD integration and the level of sophistication that goes into that. Lets leave it to a simple HUD. Pakistan does none of these three things in a manufacturing setting. And that is the difference between manufacturing and what Pakistan does.

BTW we do build PCBs etc, and we do write/code microcontrollers, and we do build software to bring gyroscopic controls among other things and we are well on the path to arrive at some manufacturing capability. But this is likely a 10 year journey at best, and perhaps the reason behind the entire Air Complex and AI complex being developed.

The last thing I'll say is that for us to develop world class manufacturing in defence we need to get Private Sector involvement. As long as defence production remains the exclusive domain of uniformed services, we wont manufacture great things and will always follow.

 

[The Accountant]

I was going to stay quiet on this topic but after seeing the above response thought of jumping in. Again these are my thoughts only, based upon personal experience and knowledge.

Pakistan is not a manufacturing country. Outside of textiles and a few other items like surgical and sports goods we are not an established manufacturing country. Defence manufacturing is a totally different ball game. To the above poster's point, Pakistan is an assembly, rebuild and repair outfit. That btw requires a high level of expertise but is completely different from manufacturing.

Manufacturing requires the ability to develop input items. For example lets take a HUD on a plane. There are roughly three elements that go into manufacturing a HUD. First is the materials (the ploymers, the different type fo impact resistant glass, the specialized coatings, the refraction proofing etc). The second element are the micro-electronics and controllers for projection units and other image creation systems and combiners. And the third is the software layer (both chipset specific but also processing and application level), to enable and combine all telemetries and deliver a functioning HUD. I wont even get into the HMD integration and the level of sophistication that goes into that. Lets leave it to a simple HUD. Pakistan does none of these three things in a manufacturing setting. And that is the difference between manufacturing and what Pakistan does.

BTW we do build PCBs etc, and we do write/code microcontrollers, and we do build software to bring gyroscopic controls among other things and we are well on the path to arrive at some manufacturing capability. But this is likely a 10 year journey at best, and perhaps the reason behind the entire Air Complex and AI complex being developed.

The last thing I'll say is that for us to develop world class manufacturing in defence we need to get Private Sector involvement. As long as defence production remains the exclusive domain of uniformed services, we wont manufacture great things and will always follow.

Thanks for clarifying my point in detail.

This is exactly i am talking about.

However i disagree on the point that we will achieve manufacturing in 10 years.

Working on revival of Pakistan steel mill is very slow whereas polymer manufacturing is only being done by engro.

Read again: People’s Steels Mill. You are not only Ill informed, you cannot also read. If using CNC machines and fluid cell presses is not manufacturing and I don’t know what else is? You are obviously not an engineer. Manufacturing can be small or big. Size does not define manufacturing. Do you even know the types of Machine Tools are installed are at PAC and their origin? The concept that everything should be made under one roof never ever existed and shows a layman’s lack of knowledge. Even all of the Ford model T was not made under one roof.

People steel mill. Do u know products and capacity of people steel mills ? It is just 15 ton furnance which cannot compete with any international manufacturer in terms.

Had it not get special orders from pakistan army it had been closed long ago.

Furthermore people steel mill has nothing to do with aircraft manufacturing as it just manufacture iron and its small products and has no capacity of even manufacturing alloys ... precision manufacturing is something else which people steel mill cant even think off.

Level of competency of people steel mill can be imagine from the fact that CFO has no accounting or finance background and his highest qualification is masters in urdu.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

Thanks for clarifying my point in detail.

This is exactly i am talking about.

However i disagree on the point that we will achieve manufacturing in 10 years.

Working on revival of Pakistan steel mill is very slow whereas polymer manufacturing is only being done by engro.


People steel mill. Do u know products and capacity of people steel mills ? It is just 15 ton furnance which cannot compete with any international manufacturer in terms.

Had it not get special orders from pakistan army it had been closed long ago.

Furthermore people steel mill has nothing to do with aircraft manufacturing as it just manufacture iron and its small products and has no capacity of even manufacturing alloys ... precision manufacturing is something else which people steel mill cant even think off.

Level of competency of people steel mill can be imagine from the fact that CFO has no accounting or finance background and his highest qualification is masters in urdu.

Agreed 10 years might be optimistic but I am basing that on the output of projects currently in the design stage at Air Complex Aviation City and Center for AI. It won’t make us into a manufacturing powerhouse but I think we’ll move up the food chain by a few factors. The part that I think we are weak in is material sciences. That gap I don’t see anyone trying to solve in a big way.
Also when I say manufacturing I mean our ability to create 25% of inputs for some specific items. As you are likely aware manufacturing is a massive vertical. 25% is pretty large a percentage and no country can fiscally build 100% source inputs. It never makes economic sense. So perhaps PK will be able to develop 25% full cycle inputs for drones, and that in itself will be a massive achievement.

 

[Bossman]

Thanks for clarifying my point in detail.

This is exactly i am talking about.

However i disagree on the point that we will achieve manufacturing in 10 years.

Working on revival of Pakistan steel mill is very slow whereas polymer manufacturing is only being done by engro.


People steel mill. Do u know products and capacity of people steel mills ? It is just 15 ton furnance which cannot compete with any international manufacturer in terms.

Had it not get special orders from pakistan army it had been closed long ago.

Furthermore people steel mill has nothing to do with aircraft manufacturing as it just manufacture iron and its small products and has no capacity of even manufacturing alloys ... precision manufacturing is something else which people steel mill cant even think off.

Level of competency of people steel mill can be imagine from the fact that CFO has no accounting or finance background and his highest qualification is masters in urdu.

I have exchanged a similar exchange with you many years ago. People Still Mill is managed by SPD as is HMC. Enough said. They have enough qualified people. I know the guy who ran People Steel for a while. He was UK qualified PhD metallurgist. You don’t know anything so better be quiet.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

I have exchanged a similar exchange with you many years ago. People Still Mill is managed by SPD as is HMC. Enough said. They have enough qualified people. I know the guy who ran People Steel for a while. He was UK qualified PhD metallurgist. You don’t know anything so better be quiet.

Bossman no need to get angry yaar. We are just discussing as friends. We all want the same thing. You are correct my friend that there are many people within the heavy industrial cycle that have well qualified degrees, but let me tell you a PHD is likely the worst person who can develop a full cycle economically viable manufacturing process. Trust me when I say this. (also I know a number of PHDs in these orgs., and they are pulling their hair out as well at the idiocy of the decisions, resourcing, plans and decision making fallacies).

Building an economically viable manufacturing ecosystem requires less PHDs and more process, project, financial modeling, product design, CAD/MATLAB engineers, product designers, industrial designers, supply chain managers, sourcing alliances and partners, marketing resources, accountants, business visionaries, liquidity, academia and research alliances. I could probably share with you a few more critical functions that don't require a PHD. All I am saying is that developing modern manufacturing or any manufacturing is the sum of a whole lot of different parts and PHDs are a small part of it. For every PHD you probably have a 100 non-PHDs needed to close the development cycle in manufacturing. It is that ecosystem that Pakistan does not possess., or at the minimum is weak in. Lastly independence from military, political and corrupt practices is another essential element.
Hope this makes sense.

 

[StormBreaker]

What do u mean by manufacturing ? Do we have any alloy manufacturing company in Pakistan ? We cant even make high tnsile steel for cars then light alloys for aircraft is another matter.

Same is the story of engine and transmission.

We are manufacturing some wire harness and PCBs those too designed by someone else and provided us the CAD to print it on the PCB printing machines also imported from outside.

So sorry this is assembly of parts procured from multiple sources around the world not manufacturing.

I am working in engineering sector so i knows rhe capability of our country very well.

Solution for the problem starts from recognizing and accepting it and then finding a solution.

Fandom/Blind patriotism clouds judgement of common Pakistanis, Getting happy on small achievements while not wanting to be critical enough to grow and grow more. I am not talking about PAC here, PAC is doing way more than we can expect from a Pakistani firm but public sector is the point here.

Its been decades and we are getting filthy dabbas, locally assembled kachra corollas and civics while the mafias ruling automobile industry is making lacs per car, And controlling prices under the guise of dollar rate or tax drama, Not allowing for local manufacturing to start which can cut down car costs 2-2.5x