Option's for PAF ?

[ziaulislam]

I believe it is possible if 25-30 aircraft are produced every year, something that ramping up production would easily be able to do. Production does get ramped up over time, as experience and resources increase.

Su-35 spare parts is no problem at all as PLAAF flies the same. Issue is, can Russia be convinced to sell this jointly with China?

Meaning say, that the airframe and engines are bought by China, then Chinese avionics and electronics integrated (including Chinese AESA radar), and the final product sold by China to Pakistan. This would keep all stakeholders happy and keep the US mum.

j-11 wouldnt be an issue
i hope you are right on jf-17 but ti would mean 200 aircraft in 8 years or 25/yr with no export orders and no breaks for major upgrades

 

[Armchair]

Fighter aircraft are produced not using a production line but via batch production. This is how it is done at Kamra. Scaling batch production up is contingent on equipment and trained personnel. It is perfectly possible to ramp up production to 50 aircraft per year, given that by now PAC has a good base of trained personnel, training centers, etc.

Question is if there is a requirement to do so. Till now, the main focus has been to iron our wrinkles and upgrade the product. With the block III, you will finally have a definitive version. It would have been meaningless to ramp up production of a product that wasn't fully mature, so for earlier blocks, it was not the focus to ramp up production.

The first and second batch of Blk3 would not make sense to ramp up production, as the new product would be taken with some caution as to its performance. When all issues are ironed out, that's when production can be ramped up. And PAC is equal to the task if given the go-ahead.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

no... Mirages are completely and hopelessly out-dated friend. There is nothing strategic about them. This is a very misleading article.

Yes my friend, i do understand the zeal to put a lot of flowers on the Mirage ROSE; in honest opinion - I loved the mirage as well; when we evolved it to Cheetah - that was something to behold. Unfortunately even with Mirage ROSE and still behind Cheetah's capabilities, it is past its time and time has come to take hard decision to put them to retirement and replace them with good deep strike aircraft.

Hi,
Every country is allowed to customise as per their needs. South Africa did it with her mirages like wise Israel. South African version was the Cheeteh were as Kfir was the Isreali.

Now we all know that these aircraft were built with a very long airframe life. PAF invested in maintenance and rebuild infrastructure for the mirage aircraft. This made PAF to reduce the costs substantially along with other added advantages.

Till this day this aircraft has been modified to bring it up to par with some of the more advanced aircraft, recent examples are the Kfir block 60 offered to the Argentine.

Coming back to the capabilities PAF requires the mirages have been upgraded to adequately fulfill these tasks. Moreover these aircraft have given PAF the advantage in case of an asymmetrical war where the numerical superiority of the other is overwhelmed by exorbitant financial losses.

This was exactly how the USSR- AFGHAN war was won. The Stringer missiles brought down multi-million dollars worth of aircraft.

Money remains an issue plus threat of sanctions.
I have been following this debate.
There are 2 questions which need answering in my view.
Which platform and when.
What is the need.

HI,
Before I answer the two question you mentioned the limitations Money and Sanctions. If we consider these two then these have been self created.

1) Money would not have been of a concern as Nawab of Hyderabad gifted aircraft to the Britishers at the time of WW2. These aircraft are part of the RAF Museum Hendon. Unfortunately the money was never officially handed over to Pakistan at the time of independence nore prior.

2) Sanctions were not imposed till Pakistan went to war in 1965. All top end fighter aircraft were in PAF inventory at the time. Limitation on numbers but available. Alternate sources were never looked upon till the sanctions after the war. Still PAF managed to procure CF-86 and mirages.

Now going to the question
Which Platform and When?
To understand this one has to see where is the weakness? The weakness was not in airsuperiory but in long range bombing. Something thats still elusive to PAF.

In 1965 sanctioned F-104 were replaced by Mirages but nothing was done regarding the sanctions on bombers. Inreality those squadrons were abolished.

When? Ghosts of the past never left.

What is the need?
In WW2 both Germans and the Allied forces used bombers to force one and other to surrender but in reality none of them succeed.

This theory and legacy of those days might have forced PAF to argue that if PAF maintains air superiority then limited bombing runs on strategic high profile targets would be enough to establish truce in the short term.

Till date PAF is limiting its scope to this philosophy when it aims are to limited to Aerial deniability. Something that does not seem a far fetched reality. That is one of the reasons Nuclear capability was sought.

Part of the answer perhaps boils down to what the Azm is. Is it:
A) A clean-sheet new design for air superiority, with Saudi help
B) A lightweight multirole 5th gen
C) A modified FC-31
D) A Chengdu design

Applying Occam's Razor, I think twin RD-93 type engines, giving commonality with JFTs is the least assumptive. A conventional wing form would make FCS development considerably simpler. The short time-frame given for development suggests the lowest risk, fastest development choices. So no earth-shattering R&D, just a 5th generation airframe with twin engines.

Hi,
If we go by the literal meaning of the word AZM then it could be many things.
1) 100 % Own fighter program.
2) 100 % engine program.

You are possibly right here. The Ex ACM suggested 6k ferry range which to me points to a large twin engined fighter.

Hi,
6k range can be attained if JF-17 is developed along the the lines of F16-XL

As I said on this thread before , I will say it again and my post is not for fanboys.
PAF is in bad shape you like it or not , 100 JF-17s gave some breathing space , , , Our Mirages are old some of them are older then me. Our F-16s are old too , only less then 20 of them are relatively new.
Realistically no one will sell us 4.5++ gen heavy 2 engine or medium single engine bird for free !!! European even will not give us any thing even we pay them and even if they sell us fear of sanctions will always stay there.
So only way forward for us is :
Build JF-17 in to more advance blocks , even if we don't upgrade airframe and better & heavy engine . Replace all old F-7s F-6s and A-5s with it (original plan) . In shape of JF-17 we have very potent light weight advance aircraft.
J-10(Pakistani version) only available single engine , medium , delta wing ideal replacement for Mirages , , , Go for it , replace our old birds with them , just make sure the weapons of Mirages can be use on our J-10 to, J-10 will bring more advantages then if we buy some odd numbers of F-16s , , , ,
For heavy better we work on this project , it will be great to see our own Twin engine , Because option available are too expensive.
For 5th Gen only way forward is J-31 buy them with some sort of TOT and use that experience on our own AZM , Twin engine 5th gen (J-31) from China and single engine 5th Gen (AZM) home made (we can join Turkey too).The birds(J-31) we will buy , will help us to counter IAF's Rafals and Su-30s and also provide time to develop our on AZM and our Own heavy.

Hi,
What options does PAF have after it was unable to purchase F-16 C\D or the old A/B?
Its best for PAF to continue developing the JF-17s and also induct 2-3 sqd of JF-17B to supplement Mirages till options are available locally or through other countries.

Interesting thoughts. J-20s, if offered, should be taken without question as the new Starfighter. 8-9 of them would be enough to create strategic effects, forcing India to invest in defensive measures for its soft underbelly

Hi,
Do not think this will be possible till some time as the requirements of PLAAF are first priority. However you may not know if a few are based in Pakistan by PLAAF to protect CPEC.

 

[Asian.Century]

Must appreciate....the above 20+ posts I read were fascinating and professional good replies enjoyed reading all of them, this should be the standard of discussion through out all of defence.pk forum!

My opinion is Pakistan needs a 4.5+ Generation, 2 squadrons atleast in the shape of F16s, Su35 or Eurofighter or J31. It is now lacking behind a true 4.5 or 5th Generation A/C.

 

[python-000]

our side thinking & guessing & the other side purchasing & purchasing

 

[denel]

Hi,
Every country is allowed to customise as per their needs. South Africa did it with her mirages like wise Israel. South African version was the Cheeteh were as Kfir was the Isreali.

Now we all know that these aircraft were built with a very long airframe life. PAF invested in maintenance and rebuild infrastructure for the mirage aircraft. This made PAF to reduce the costs substantially along with other added advantages.

Till this day this aircraft has been modified to bring it up to par with some of the more advanced aircraft, recent examples are the Kfir block 60 offered to the Argentine.

Coming back to the capabilities PAF requires the mirages have been upgraded to adequately fulfill these tasks. Moreover these aircraft have given PAF the advantage in case of an asymmetrical war where the numerical superiority of the other is overwhelmed by exorbitant financial losses.

This was exactly how the USSR- AFGHAN war was won. The Stringer missiles brought down multi-million dollars worth of aircraft.



HI,
Before I answer the two question you mentioned the limitations Money and Sanctions. If we consider these two then these have been self created.

1) Money would not have been of a concern as Nawab of Hyderabad gifted aircraft to the Britishers at the time of WW2. These aircraft are part of the RAF Museum Hendon. Unfortunately the money was never officially handed over to Pakistan at the time of independence nore prior.

2) Sanctions were not imposed till Pakistan went to war in 1965. All top end fighter aircraft were in PAF inventory at the time. Limitation on numbers but available. Alternate sources were never looked upon till the sanctions after the war. Still PAF managed to procure CF-86 and mirages.

Now going to the question
Which Platform and When?
To understand this one has to see where is the weakness? The weakness was not in airsuperiory but in long range bombing. Something thats still elusive to PAF.

In 1965 sanctioned F-104 were replaced by Mirages but nothing was done regarding the sanctions on bombers. Inreality those squadrons were abolished.

When? Ghosts of the past never left.

What is the need?
In WW2 both Germans and the Allied forces used bombers to force one and other to surrender but in reality none of them succeed.

This theory and legacy of those days might have forced PAF to argue that if PAF maintains air superiority then limited bombing runs on strategic high profile targets would be enough to establish truce in the short term.

Till date PAF is limiting its scope to this philosophy when it aims are to limited to Aerial deniability. Something that does not seem a far fetched reality. That is one of the reasons Nuclear capability was sought.


Hi,
If we go by the literal meaning of the word AZM then it could be many things.
1) 100 % Own fighter program.
2) 100 % engine program.



Hi,
6k range can be attained if JF-17 is developed along the the lines of F16-XL

Hi,
What options does PAF have after it was unable to purchase F-16 C\D or the old A/B?
Its best for PAF to continue developing the JF-17s and also induct 2-3 sqd of JF-17B to supplement Mirages till options are available locally or through other countries.


Hi,
Do not think this will be possible till some time as the requirements of PLAAF are first priority. However you may not know if a few are based in Pakistan by PLAAF to protect CPEC.

Noted, but Cheetah and Kfir are not customisations, they are completely redesign/rebuilds of the original frame, engines, wings, avionics. In cheetah case it was upgraded engine and Kfir case completely different engine.
What I am saying is the ROSE was very limited upgrade unlike the other two mentioned.

 

[MastanKhan]

Noted, but Cheetah and Kfir are not customisations, they are completely redesign/rebuilds of the original frame, engines, wings, avionics. In cheetah case it was upgraded engine and Kfir case completely different engine.
What I am saying is the ROSE was very limited upgrade unlike the other two mentioned.

Hi,

Thanks for explaining it to the kids---. The ROSE upgrade has nothing in common to what was done to the Cheetah & Kfir---.

 

[Raider 21]

Noted, but Cheetah and Kfir are not customisations, they are completely redesign/rebuilds of the original frame, engines, wings, avionics. In cheetah case it was upgraded engine and Kfir case completely different engine.
What I am saying is the ROSE was very limited upgrade unlike the other two mentioned.

Hi,

Thanks for explaining it to the kids---. The ROSE upgrade has nothing in common to what was done to the Cheetah & Kfir---.

Agreed. The Cheetah and Kfir were completely different. And they flew particularly really well. A former SAAF Cheetah pilot in UAE Air Force during his time as Hawk 102 IP was full of praise for the Cheetah.

 

[Army research]

?? What’s the source of confirmation ??

Apart from talking to various engineers working on the project, public statements of 6000 km ferry range also point to it

 

[MastanKhan]

Apart from talking to various engineers working on the project, public statements of 6000 km ferry range also point to it

Hi,

3600 miles is around 5800 km---

3100 miles is around 5000 km---

So---your information is correct----. Thanks.

 

[khanasifm]

Apart from talking to various engineers working on the project, public statements of 6000 km ferry range also point to it

Never heard of 6k ferry range

Even j-20 or f-22 has 1/2 the ferry range

 

[CHACHA"G"]

Hi,
What options does PAF have after it was unable to purchase F-16 C\D or the old A/B?
Its best for PAF to continue developing the JF-17s and also induct 2-3 sqd of JF-17B to supplement Mirages till options are available locally or through other countries.

I m fully against having only one Aircraft and especially when that bird is light category... Instead of having 40 to 60 JF-17Bs we can buy J-10s and can start replacement of Mirages , , , We can get 10+ JF-17Bs for training purpose .
I m in favour of developing JF-17 , but with current airframe and engine JF-17 is and will always be Light category bird. And we have to come out of Defensive or Area denial mentality.
Yes it will be hard to replace Mirages with any new bird. But if we are able to use weapon packages of Mirage on new bird (Just say J-10) that will surely help , And one most important thing is "New bird will give us 40+ years of service " so 5 years of pain worth it.
Our Mirages are old , and almost flying coffins , Time is here to replace them and change of mentality.
And on F-16s , buying old and then upgrading also cost money , problem of US and sanction fear , but I still in favour of this too ,But this does not have to impact Mirage's replacement program .

 

[araz]

Never heard of 6k ferry range

Even j-20 or f-22 has 1/2 the ferry range

Listento the Ex ACM fairwell speech which is here somewhere.
A

 

[MastanKhan]

Never heard of 6k ferry range

Even j-20 or f-22 has 1/2 the ferry range

6000 Km---

 

[ziaulislam]

I m fully against having only one Aircraft and especially when that bird is light category... Instead of having 40 to 60 JF-17Bs we can buy J-10s and can start replacement of Mirages , , , We can get 10+ JF-17Bs for training purpose .
I m in favour of developing JF-17 , but with current airframe and engine JF-17 is and will always be Light category bird. And we have to come out of Defensive or Area denial mentality.
Yes it will be hard to replace Mirages with any new bird. But if we are able to use weapon packages of Mirage on new bird (Just say J-10) that will surely help , And one most important thing is "New bird will give us 40+ years of service " so 5 years of pain worth it.
Our Mirages are old , and almost flying coffins , Time is here to replace them and change of mentality.
And on F-16s , buying old and then upgrading also cost money , problem of US and sanction fear , but I still in favour of this too ,But this does not have to impact Mirage's replacement program .

this is the counter argument...
Pakistan is poor, social services are collapsing (e.g we spend 0.9% of gdp on health vs average of 6-8% by other countries)
resources are not there, all three wings of armed forces need urgent modernization, IMF is again on doorstep..

we probably will need to look at countries who are like in our situation e.g look at sweden/gripenC situation at height of USSR and learn from them