‘Ops in tribal areas could split Pak army’

[Neo]

Well we dont want the media to come and tell us everything. Pakistan has long had this plan of proxy war against India and is documented and reproted inumerable times. So playing the little ange wont help here. Pakistan is indeed India's no1 enemy or worry. And that being the case its aboslutly justified that India tries to isolate Pakistan whenever possible.

So why blame it all on us when you're doing the same.
Two wrongs don't make a right.

Well yes we might have, so. We have our own proxy war. Post 9-111 has thrown us oppurtunities to divert pakistan;s attention from east to west, which si to India's benefit. Unlike Pakistan we are not using our soil to train and arm these extremists thus protecting the Indians.

You don't have to when IA has free card to commit any crime against humanity in the name of WoT. Good job!

We dont want to talk, its Mushraff who wants to talk. Why? bcoz we have played our cards well and he knows he cant carry on with his 'fight for Kashmiri bros'.

Yes you do! Read above how India has dropped claim on Aksai Chin and AK as posted from some Indian membrs and how you want to 'talk' to make LOC an IB.

Thats exactly what prioristisation means!!!

Point taken but negligence in other's area's doesn't define priorities in others...its simple mismanagement.

Well right. JeM was found in Lm along with Talibans and uzbeks(?). And you want me to believe that they are all inter linked.

Their main priority was to help Kashmir fight for its freedom, thats all that matters to us.
If you can justify Mukti Baheni to operate from Indian soil against EP in 1971 you'll surely understand.

Well we have our threat perceptions and countires in our neighbourhood with whjom we have fought battles and with whom we continue to have border disputes. So when we have the money we shall do whats possible.

Same applies for us. So again Kashmir or no kashmir, we'll never allow India to bully us and will do all possible to maintain status quo.



What official? Who discusses kashmir now? I[/QUOTE]

 

[blitz]

There is no point resorting to oral sophistry because we all know who stands where. So i will ask this straight up. Assuming history uptill 2007, and the ground realities as of today......

Is Pakistan's current stand on Kashmir beneficial to Pakistan or detrimental ?


Neo i would appreciate your answer. I will not contest it but take it at its face value.

Thanks

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Is Pakistan's current stand on Kashmir beneficial to Pakistan or detrimental ?

Now thats a question to start a whole new thread on..

 

[Bull]

So why blame it all on us when you're doing the same.
Two wrongs don't make a right..

We are blaming for the 'things' you have done. And it doesnt in anyway mean that the accusing party is an angel.

You don't have to when IA has free card to commit any crime against humanity in the name of WoT. Good job!.

We are not into America's WoT nor is IA. IA has commited crimes in Kashmir like other armies operating in conflict areas, and unlike other armies our soldiers have been tried and punished.

Yes you do! Read above how India has dropped claim on Aksai Chin and AK as posted from some Indian membrs and how you want to 'talk' to make LOC an IB..

India members saying, well Neo look at what the GOI is saying. India has official send oput some feelers but the real 'urge' is seen from Mushraff. It has died down quite a bit now probably bcoz he is busy with other things. There was a time when you can expect Mushraff's Kashmir overtures atleast once in a week, guess that was before the book launch.

Their main priority was to help Kashmir fight for its freedom, thats all that matters to us. If you can justify Mukti Baheni to operate from Indian soil against EP in 1971 you'll surely understand..

Can you see Mukti Baheni bombing Indian targets? No. Can you see them in India anywhere? No. We did a job, a clean job. We or they had a goal to achieve and we kept that goal poltical unlike Pakistan who mixed Kashmir with 'Hindu oppression'/Muslim brotherhood and gave sanctuaries for these extremists all around Pakistan.

Same applies for us. So again Kashmir or no kashmir, we'll never allow India to bully us and will do all possible to maintain status quo.

Isolating is not bullying.

 

[blitz]

Bull and Neo, these point by point cyclical arguments lead to nowhere. Make sure that the other person gets the essence of the argument, and then hit the nail in the head.

 

[dabong1]

Of course Blain, India also has crushing poverty on a massive scale. Much more so than Pakistan. India is trying to solve that problem and get rid of all border disputes. That is why India has all but given up its claim on Askai Chin as well. That is why India also does not claim Azad Kashmir anymore. India's general stand is make LOC the permanent border. Its Pakistan thats dragging the Kashmir issue.

Vety good point.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Blain, for your question about how Pakistan's poverty is linked to enmity with India.... Look at the world map. Pakistan has a strategic position geographically. It sits at the mouth of land locked Central Asia and all its energy resources. Pakistan sits at the border of the Persian gulf and a huge energy exporter Iran. Now look on the two sides of Pakistan. On one side is impoverished and unstable Afghanistan. The other side is the enormous market of India with an unlimited appetite for energy. If Pakistan and India could get over the confrontation, Pakistan would become the transit hub for all energy exports feeding not only India, but also the rest of the global economy. Exports to CAR and Iran from India will transit through Pakistan. Then there is the thriving business enviornment within India. Indian companies are investing billions over billions into places as far as Africa, with only unpredictable chances of return at best. If Pakistan would open its doors, it would be flush with foreign investment. Then there is the massive border, which is virtually sealed off. Open that border to trade and the flow of goods and money will be enormous. Pakistan will have an unlimited market for its exports.

Combine that with the additional 160 million market of Pakistan, India's strategic location on top of the world's most critical SLOC, India's seat in the security council [provided Pakistan supports our nomination], India and Pakistan's strategic nuclear arsenal, India's access to all the developed world's technology, etc etc and there will be no nation on earth that could dictate any terms to SAARC.

An economic bloc spanning from the shores of the Persian gulf to the straits of Malacca. The possibilities are endless. This self inflicted isolation has hurt Pakistan just as much as India, if not more.

I'll be going a little off topic here, so please bear with me. I have serious doubts about the viability of a trading bloc, such as the one you propose, from the Pakistani perspective, at this point in time or even within the next fifty years. My reasoning is that the gulf between the private business powerhouses in India and those in Pakistan puts Pakistani businesses at a huge disadvantage. Currently Indian businesses, that would compete with Pakistani ones, are more efficient, have better economies of scale, access to better technology, greater access to finance and more of it. They have much higher investments in product R&D, market research, advertising; any aspect of business you look at.

Any time I look at the customary "lists of items" that could be traded in such a bloc, I'm shocked at how unbalanced they are. Pakistan is supposed to feel "excited" about having "access" to India's market and exporting "onions", or some other low end products? Please don't get me wrong, this is not India's fault. Our leadership has pursued flawed economic policies for far too long. We are now finally beginning to see the emergence of a competitive, robust private sector that can compete in more and more high tech and value added fields, but Indian businesses still have a couple of decades, at least, head start on them. The longer we wait to open up our economy to an EU sort of bloc, the more robust and diverse our own private sector will be. We don't want to become solely consumers.

In that context, holding out on a final Kashmir settlement does Pakistani interests no harm. On the contrary, it gives our private sector, at least the ones that don't grow vegetables, more time to mature and become competitive. A festering Kashmir issue gives the Pakistani leadership an excuse to postpone the inevitable, and ensure the country is better prepared to handle the challenge when it does arrive.At the end of the day, it is not how much trade with India we have that will lead to prosperity, but how many jobs the private sector can create and retain within Pakistan. We don't want Wagah to be a giant commuter station, with trains carrying Pakistanis back from working in factories and businesses in India at 5 p.m.

So I would humbly suggest (and I am not very humble after all those "cute" comments ) that a delay in settling the Kashmir issue is only eroding India's advantage, not Pakistan's, given continuity of current trends.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I didn't want to interject, but Pakistani products, if cheap and robust, will surely find a market as the Chinese goods have. In the current times, no one cares from which country the product comes from. It is the quality and cost that matters.

In India, I can say with some surety, that the animosity towards Pakistan is no longer the case. There is definitely a perceptive thaw. Even in the TV idol programmes, there are many Pakistani aspirants who are rooted by the viewers through the SMS that ensure that they progress from round to round! A warm feeling, if I may say.

Though it can hardly make a dent in big time economics, but SHAN masala has come home to roost. I am not their publicist, but anyone who has used SHAN masala is hooked to it, as I am. The product is superb and it is unusually 'new' to the palate!

The Kashmir issue will have to be on the backburner since right now, Musharraf has his hands full. And today's news states that the Madrassa in the Lal Mazjid complex is being demolished because the structure has become unsafe after the firefight. One has to await the reaction from the fundamentalists on the issue.

Once Musharraf stabilises, the dialogue hopefully will start and the suitable solution will be attempted to be reached. Even so, there will be radicals on either side, who will claim that it is a sellout.

 

[blain2]

I didn't want to interject, but Pakistani products, if cheap and robust, will surely find a market as the Chinese goods have. In the current times, no one cares from which country the product comes from. It is the quality and cost that matters.

In India, I can say with some surety, that the animosity towards Pakistan is no longer the case. There is definitely a perceptive thaw. Even in the TV idol programmes, there are many Pakistani aspirants who are rooted by the viewers through the SMS that ensure that they progress from round to round! A warm feeling, if I may say.

Though it can hardly make a dent in big time economics, but SHAN masala has come home to roost. I am not their publicist, but anyone who has used SHAN masala is hooked to it, as I am. The product is superb and it is unusually 'new' to the palate!

The Kashmir issue will have to be on the backburner since right now, Musharraf has his hands full. And today's news states that the Madrassa in the Lal Mazjid complex is being demolished because the structure has become unsafe after the firefight. One has to await the reaction from the fundamentalists on the issue.

Once Musharraf stabilises, the dialogue hopefully will start and the suitable solution will be attempted to be reached. Even so, there will be radicals on either side, who will claim that it is a sellout.

I agree with your post.

Cheers on Shaan Masala That is one nifty and convenient product.

I personally think its ok if Kashmir is on the backburner for now (as long as the violence is capped both ways I.E. militancy and government excesses against the Kashmiris).

Dealing with radicals is an issue on both sides....you guys have to deal with the Hindu right (RSS/BJP etc.) and we have to deal with our right. Overall if there is economic wellbeing in both of the countries then the urge to negotiate (instead of duking it out) is more.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I didn't want to interject, but Pakistani products, if cheap and robust, will surely find a market as the Chinese goods have. In the current times, no one cares from which country the product comes from. It is the quality and cost that matters.

Though it can hardly make a dent in big time economics, but SHAN masala has come home to roost. I am not their publicist, but anyone who has used SHAN masala is hooked to it, as I am.
The product is superb and it is unusually 'new' to the palate!

The Kashmir issue will have to be on the backburner since right now, Musharraf has his hands full. And today's news states that the Madrassa in the Lal Mazjid complex is being demolished because the structure has become unsafe after the firefight. One has to await the reaction from the fundamentalists on the issue.

Once Musharraf stabilises, the dialogue hopefully will start and the suitable solution will be attempted to be reached. Even so, there will be radicals on either side, who will claim that it is a sellout.

Please do interject Salim sahib, that is after all the purpose of a forum. But your comment about Shan masal sort of proves my point. If you look up any of those reports that list the items that each country can export to the other, the Pakistani one is ridiculously short and comprised of mostly low value products. What you are suggesting, that "if the products are cheap and robust" is exactly what Pakistani industry has to master, and we will. But it is not limited to that. There is also the issue of a large variety of products that Pakistan does not manufacture or is just getting into. Those industries would be wiped out. Chinese products are also flooding the Pakistani market with local producers of those products struggling to compete.

There could be restrictions on the trade to be conducted within such a block. For example, the companies interested in doing business in either country could be required to locally produce a certain percentage of the products they sell. Of course, as you suggested, Pakistan needs to stabilize on the home front first. But my contention still is that the longer the Kashmir issue festers, the more India's advantage erodes.

 

[joey]

For once With all Honesty I wouldnt like any trade block formation, Pakistans industry level isnt in the level of China and India and if trade block is formed betweel all as such with FTA the markets would be flooded, the same exact reason there are restrictions on chinese goods. I personally feel A stable border is at both countries interests but formation of a trade bloc is not at Pakistans interest, its not about finding the market in India but something more.

Simple make the border as status quo and aspire for a better future, have your defence right job well done.

btw blain what about the left? now pulling that down would take some major revival, why not that if the other too? see thats now how things work in a democracy, Anything that will suit Indian interest as per constitution will be done, if a trade block suits it BJP can shout all they want they cannot block it, because at the end of the day any clash in legislature needs not to be proven in forum but in the Supreme court of the country.

 

[blitz]

agnostic, India's advantage eroding ? where do you get your news from ? you have it all upside down. India is widening the gap with each passing day, not just in economy, but also geo-politics, influence and military capability. Its there for all to see. what are you talking about ?

 

[roadrunner]

agnostic, India's advantage eroding ? where do you get your news from ? you have it all upside down. India is widening the gap with each passing day, not just in economy, but also geo-politics, influence and military capability. Its there for all to see. what are you talking about ?

India is widening the gap to some countries but the gap to others is eroding. I'd say Pakistan is one of those that fall into group 2 because it has only just started realizing its true potential. Sustained economic growth, the importance of software, military exports etc, are all taking shape in Pakistan. Bharat already reached this a while back so won't be growing as quickly as Pakistan in the near future I would suspect.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

agnostic, India's advantage eroding ? where do you get your news from ? you have it all upside down. India is widening the gap with each passing day, not just in economy, but also geo-politics, influence and military capability. Its there for all to see. what are you talking about ?

Roadrunner summarized the issues I was referring to quite well. My opinion is based on economic events and realities, as I see them, in India and Pakistan. The "advantage" India has right now, in the case of a Kashmir resolution, would be that Indian businesses, if given access to Pakistani markets, could overwhelm Pakistani companies. What other advantage is there for India to utilize? Indian conventional military superiority has been neutralized by nuclear weapons, as well as rapid developments in the conventional military capabilities of Pakistan. The only "advantage" India can practically exercise is its economic superiority. My point was that, given continuity of present trends and reforms, the Pakistani economy will continue to improve, the middle class will continue to grow, the Pakistani private sector will continue to flourish and strengthen as we have more and better educated Pakistanis joining the work force. The longer the wait, the stronger the Pakistani economy and private sector, and the more competition Indian businesses will face if and when an economic bloc is created. This is not a bad thing in itself, fair competition can be beneficial, but I just don't buy the argument that by not taking advantage of India's economy right now, it is Pakistan which is losing out.

 

[Neo]

Good replies Roadrunner and Agnostic, seems like many still ahve wrong perception of our economy.

Here's a nice report from an independant source I posted yesterday:

Pakistan gaining attention as outsourcing haven ​

From Khalid Hasan

WASHINGTON: Pakistan is getting much attention in offshore outsourcing and it is only the threat of terrorism that has kept the sector from achieving its full potential, according to a professional magazine.

Patrick Thibodeau writes in the current issue of Computerworld that despite this handicap, Pakistan has a developing offshore IT services industry and in many areas of the country, it’s “business as usual.” In March this year, Chicago-based consulting firm AT Kearney Inc for the first time added Pakistan to a list of 50 countries that it evaluates for their offshore services . AT Kearney’s Global Services Location Index weighs more than 40 metrics, such as a country’s labor pool, infrastructure and legal system. Johan Gott, an analyst at AT Kearney, said Pakistan was added to the list of evaluated countries in order to stay ahead of interest from the consulting firm’s clients. Although it’s doubtful that large companies will build offshore development centres in Pakistan, Gott said the country does have potential - particularly with smaller companies seeking outsourced IT services. “In many respects, it’s similar to India in terms of education and people skills,” he added.

According to the article, AT Kearney is not the only market watcher that thinks offshore development may pick up in Pakistan. In a report last year, New York-based Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc said Pakistan’s IT industry was growing at a high rate, with more than 330 companies having registered with the country’s software export board. According to Lehman Brothers, Pakistan’s advantages include relatively low wages - amounting to as little as half the level of salaries in India - as well as reasonable real estate costs, plentiful government incentives and a readily available supply of workers. One of the largest IT services firms with operations in Pakistan is Calabasas, California-based NetSol Technologies Inc NetSol, which is listed on the Nasdaq Stock Market, has offices in the UK, China and Australia. The company was founded in Pakistan in the mid-1990s, and employs about 600 engineers there on projects for global clients in such industries as automotive and financial services.

Najib Ghauri of NetSol says the US is Pakistan’s largest trading partner, and Pakistan’s economy is doing well. “Anytime anybody goes to Pakistan, they always come back bullish,” he said. Todd Furniss, chief operating officer at the , says Pakistan has a reasonably stable economy and a legal system based on English law. “That infrastructure should make it a logical destination for services,” he added. However, it is not the case, he added, because of a number of issues facing the country, including the lack of an IT industry group similar to India’s National Association of Software and Services Companies. He also questioned whether Pakistan’s educational system is adequately preparing students for the IT services labour market. The biggest problem holding back Pakistan’s IT services industry is the geopolitical situation, according to Furniss. “That is really is a central issue,” he said. There are many other countries that offer similar outsourcing options and “don’t come with the issues that Pakistan comes with right now”, another computer executive observed.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...5-7-2007_pg7_1