‘Ops in tribal areas could split Pak army’

[joey]

Dude, you're the ones that invaded Kashmir, and refused to hold plebiscite there to let the people decide who they want to join, India or Pakistan. Even the UN resolutions asked you to hold plebiscite which you never did. The right thing is to let the people of Kashmir decide what they want to do - something India denies them still. Agreeing to fragment Kashmir would be a mistake for Pakistan, since the people don't want it. The world's greatest democracy and next superpower doesnt seem to care about the wishes of the Kashmiri untermenschen though

India invaded Kashmir first? Gracious!

By the way, There is no legal way you can define ground aspirations of kashmiri people (which was a princely state to begin with and the law applies to the same) because that calls upon the need of plebicite and transmigration for over 50 years violaties the very basis of plebicite. Unlike Pakistan we have anti-migration and anti-property rights, while does Pakistan has a written record that can differentiate between the migrated settles from Pakistan into Kashmir with that of the Kashmiris themselves, or do they have national record of the kith and kin of the migrated peoples to differentiate between the kashmiris as such? (men in uniform from both sides are not problem in case of plebicite because it is the uniform that distinguishes them from others).

And personally I feel Bollywood is a load of junk. If I were Musharraf I'd hang any shopkeeper in Pakistan caught selling a single DVD or video of it. It is better that Pakistan wipes out all these influences so it can develop it rightful culture distinct from that of Bharat.

Bravo Bravo, You should spearhead the same a great reform movement that calls for hanging anyone selling bollywood video, unlike you we wont be facing pakistaniphobia in seeing Pakistani Dramas, We know how/what/when to appreciate when it deserves. There are enough bollywood movies which are quite good for common man in the subcontinent, Everyone dont understands The Godfather nor they literally understands the fast American accent in movies.

Even if we all know the police comes in the end and the hero lives on, it is entertaining for many out there.

Kashmiri people are the same ethnic as Pakistani people. That is why Pakistan wishes them the best and wishes their self determination. Bharat does not care about them because the Kashmiris are untermenschen aka not the common Dravidian. Whilst Bharat will stab them in the back and not care for them, Pakistan will not and continues to ask for their self determination right.

Your fascination about ethnicity, bharat, pakistani, dravidian, kashmiri and the great care that Pakistani government feels for their near and dear brothers in Kashmir is revealing for such a common man like me, How do you learn so much from? I look forward learning great bounds of knowledge from you.

Dude, the feeling is mutual, I don't hold your opinion in much regard either. I have no love for the Kashmiris personally, a lot of them are too blinded to even see how much Pakistan has helped them. Most want independence which Pakistan has given them from its part. Kashmir is a colonial legacy, an artifical border. It belongs historically to Pakistan or the Indus Valley and always has done. The right is with Pakistan on this, and so I support Kashmir going to Pakistan, or at least the Kashmir Valley, Jammu I would support going to India. You should do a cost vs benefit of how much the war is costing you and the millions of Bharatis it could feed, versus the tiny piece of worthless land the Kashmir Valley is - that is all Pakistan wants. The other parts, Jammu should go to Bharat, Ladakh to China, sounds good too.

Even one of most peaceful Prime Minister Dr singh says , there is no question of re-drawing of the map, what can be done is better integration for economic viability.

Not a inch of territory will be ceded without war and your welcome to start one if you want to change the status quo, nor a inch will be asked from Pakistan as we know it wouldnt be possible without a war, humble/agreeable stand/stance of India is to make LOC as IB with better integration or better facilities to those who have families in both sides of the border.

 

[IceCold]

Blain, for your question about how Pakistan's poverty is linked to enmity with India.... Look at the world map. Pakistan has a strategic position geographically. It sits at the mouth of land locked Central Asia and all its energy resources. Pakistan sits at the border of the Persian gulf and a huge energy exporter Iran. Now look on the two sides of Pakistan. On one side is impoverished and unstable Afghanistan. The other side is the enormous market of India with an unlimited appetite for energy. If Pakistan and India could get over the confrontation, Pakistan would become the transit hub for all energy exports feeding not only India, but also the rest of the global economy. Exports to CAR and Iran from India will transit through Pakistan. Then there is the thriving business enviornment within India. Indian companies are investing billions over billions into places as far as Africa, with only unpredictable chances of return at best. If Pakistan would open its doors, it would be flush with foreign investment. Then there is the massive border, which is virtually sealed off. Open that border to trade and the flow of goods and money will be enormous. Pakistan will have an unlimited market for its exports.

Combine that with the additional 160 million market of Pakistan, India's strategic location on top of the world's most critical SLOC, India's seat in the security council [provided Pakistan supports our nomination], India and Pakistan's strategic nuclear arsenal, India's access to all the developed world's technology, etc etc and there will be no nation on earth that could dictate any terms to SAARC.

An economic bloc spanning from the shores of the Persian gulf to the straits of Malacca. The possibilities are endless. This self inflicted isolation has hurt Pakistan just as much as India, if not more.

I agree with you biltz. India wont give kashmir and we cant have it unless a war is provoked which will benifit no 1 but harm all what both sides are trying to gain that is a stong economy, reduction of poverty, terrorism fighting etc. Holding on to kashmir has not given pakistan anything but then there is another factor too even pakistan drops off and the current regime has done that to an extent even indians cant deny also known as the uturn of pakistan stance on kashmir but when ever a terrorist attack happens within india the 1st thing indians doo is to blame pakistan. gather massive troops on the border, blockade of the karachi port and threatening to go to war. In this scenario what do u really expect of pakistan to do? Where does all the good will of india towards pakistan go and if pakistan doesnt has a strong force to defend her self we would be facing the same kind of love that lebanon and palestine gets from israel. So wht makes u think that only kashmir is the root cause of dispute when both the nations cant resist for blaming of there internal failures on each other.

 

[blitz]

IceCold, if the core issue is dropped, no one in India would be blaming Pakistan for India's troubles. India doesn't blame Nepal or Bhutan for its internal problems. Why ? Because they are not enemies. Whether true or not, its human psychology to blame your enemy for your problems. Pakistan is an enemy right now, so its blamed for terrorist actions in India [i will not go into whether its true or not]. When Pakistan stops being the enemy, in the Indian people's mind, the reason for sponsoring terrorism against India goes away. So no one will blame you for it. Simple really.

In order to cut a finger from India, Pakistan drove a stake through its heart. Sure Kashmir has been bleeding India, but not as much as to affect other more important things. Pakistan on the other hand has prioritized Kashmir above all else, even Pakistan's own future.

If i was Pakistani, i would say that supporting the Kashmir insurgency was a good idea in theory and if it would have worked according to plan, it would have achieved the objective. But it didn't. It didn't bleed India white [although hurt a lot], instead it radicalized parts of Pakistani population in return. So isn't it better to change track and follow a different path ?
When you reach a dead end on the road, you either change road or keep smashing your head against the dead end. Now you tell me whats smarter ?

You also have to realize that enmity with India has as much to do with Kashmir as Pakistan army's greed to hold absolute power over Pakistan. If there is no issue of Kashmir, thus no enmity with India, your country will not be threatened by India 24/7. Thus there would be no need to prioritize defense and the army over everything else.

Now India says we don't want your part of Kashmir. Just don't expect us to give up our part away. Simple really. So there really is no core issue other than what the PA [yes i say PA, not Pakistan] has made of it. PA is holding Pakistan's future hostage to Kashmir, so that it can hold power in Pakistan.

 

[Neo]

IceCold, if the core issue is dropped, no one in India would be blaming Pakistan for India's troubles. India doesn't blame Nepal or Bhutan for its internal problems. Why ? Because they are not enemies. Whether true or not, its human psychology to blame your enemy for your problems. Pakistan is an enemy right now, so its blamed for terrorist actions in India [i will not go into whether its true or not]. When Pakistan stops being the enemy, in the Indian people's mind, the reason for sponsoring terrorism against India goes away. So no one will blame you for it. Simple really.

Thats crap! For atleast five decades your governemt actively portrayed Pakistan as your comon enemy, your foreign policy is designed to isolate Pakistan whenever and where ever it can and your media is still biased when it comes to reporting Pakistani affairs.

Kashmir may be the core issue to our political indifferences but India too has been active in other fronts including Balochistan. BLA for one was funded by RAW and KGB!
Your government has tried to take advantage of 9/11 by linking the freedom strugglke to international terrorism but infact you've intensified attrocities by IA in the name of WoT!
Stop state sponsored terrorism in Kashmir and recall your agents from Afghanistan and we'll talk.

In order to cut a finger from India, Pakistan drove a stake through its heart. Sure Kashmir has been bleeding India, but not as much as to affect other more important things. Pakistan on the other hand has prioritized Kashmir above all else, even Pakistan's own future.

Thats a misconception, an Indian generated one! We haven't prioritsed Kashmir above all but I'll agree that we've neglected other issues due Kashmir as Sir Niaz explained above.

If i was Pakistani, i would say that supporting the Kashmir insurgency was a good idea in theory and if it would have worked according to plan, it would have achieved the objective. But it didn't. It didn't bleed India white [although hurt a lot], instead it radicalized parts of Pakistani population in return. So isn't it better to change track and follow a different path ?
When you reach a dead end on the road, you either change road or keep smashing your head against the dead end. Now you tell me whats smarter ?

If only your governemt had adapted this approach Kashmir would have been solved a long time ago. Its only now GoI is considering LoC to become IB.
Btw radicalisation of parts of Pakistan are not to be blaimed on Kashmir, its rather due fall out of Afghan war. Your theory will sell well on Indian and western boards though.

You also have to realize that enmity with India has as much to do with Kashmir as Pakistan army's greed to hold absolute power over Pakistan. If there is no issue of Kashmir, thus no enmity with India, your country will not be threatened by India 24/7. Thus there would be no need to prioritize defense and the army over everything else.

Kashmir or no Kashmir, India is arming itself to the teeth and will remain a threat for her neighbors.

Now India says we don't want your part of Kashmir. Just don't expect us to give up our part away. Simple really. So there really is no core issue other than what the PA [yes i say PA, not Pakistan] has made of it. PA is holding Pakistan's future hostage to Kashmir, so that it can hold power in Pakistan.

Its only for the people of Kashmir to decide what they want, you can't drop claims on land which is not yours in the first place.
Kashmir officially is still a disputed territory.

 

[blitz]

Kashmir --> insurgency in Kashmir --> mujahideen from Azad Kashmir ---> radicalization of NWFP and NA


After the soviets were gone and Taliban was still in its infancy.

Kashmir --> enmity with India --> need for strategic depth --> Afghanistan --> support for Taliban --> radicalization of Waziristan and FATA

Does it get any simpler than that ?
Ill edit the flowchart for people to understand clearly.

 

[Neo]

Obviously you don't know a thing about Fall Out of Afghan War.

 

[blitz]

yes i do, its you who has closed your eyes. Taliban did not come to power during the Soviet invasion, they came to power after the Soviets were long gone. Pakistan supported Taliban against the northern alliance and after bitter fighting for years, Taliban came to power to further Pakistan 'strategic depth' concept.

that Afghanistan flow chart's timeline is after the Soviets were long gone.

 

[Neo]

Mujahideen gave birth to Taliban, we chose to support them in order to get hold of the mess left by USA and USSR, afterall whatever affects Afghanistan will affect us. During first few years Taliban fought NA to get controll of Kabul, it only went rogue after Osama arrived.

Pakistan and KSA both had cut support to Taliban by then as they wouldn't take orders from any of us.

Thats what I mean by Afghan Fall Out.

 

[Neo]

Without AQ the taliban would have remained a local threat, Afghanistan would still be involved in a civil war.
And Pakistan would be working at some level with the authorities to get control and keep the troubles away from our borders.

 

[blitz]

Exactly, and why was Pakistan supporting Taliban instead of NA ? NA and Taliban were both formed by the Mujahideen. Its because the Taliban followed PA's orders and NA didn't. NA wanted a more normal Afghanistan, Taliban wanted a more religious Pakistan, but for Pakistan, ideology was not a concern, but rather the control over Afghanistan, which was because of the need for depth against India.

AQ ? What are you talking about ? Yes without AQ the US would not be there and things wouldn't be blowing up in Pakistans face. But its radicalization i am talking about, which was entrenched in the Pakistani population along the border due to Taliban's victory in Afghanistan.

Simple really

 

[Neo]

Crap again!
Historically NA has been supported by India and Russia and its anti Pakistan! Quite naive to believe that any country would compromise national interests for the sake of its neighbors.

Taliban had no say in Pakistani matters, its AQ which was driven from its safe heaven in Afghanistan and brought Talibans into Pakistan: Afghan War Fall Out!

 

[blitz]

Oh man, you are right in what you are saying, except its off topic. I am not contesting what happened, i am contesting why it happened. FATA is radicalized with Taliban ideology because of the victory of Taliban right ? PA supported post-war Taliban because India was you enemy. Right ? And why was India your enemy ? Kashmir, right ?

 

[Neo]

Few questions for you: What was USA, USSR, India and other countries doing in 1987 when Afghan War offcially ended?

What have any of these countries actively done to help Afghanistan rebuild itself?

How could Taliban's win local popularity vote?

Take some time to think about it.

 

[Adux]

Few questions for you: What was USA, USSR, India and other countries doing in 1987 when Afghan War offcially ended?

What have any of these countries actively done to help Afghanistan rebuild itself?

How could Taliban's win local popularity vote?

Take some time to think about it.

How is India involved in this, we were never a active player unlike Pakistan, USSR and USA.

 

[Bull]

Thats crap! For atleast five decades your governemt actively portrayed Pakistan as your comon enemy, your foreign policy is designed to isolate Pakistan whenever and where ever it can and your media is still biased when it comes to reporting Pakistani affairs..

Well we dont want the media to come and tell us everything. Pakistan has long had this plan of proxy war against India and is documented and reproted inumerable times. So playing the little ange wont help here. Pakistan is indeed India's no1 enemy or worry. And that being the case its aboslutly justified that India tries to isolate Pakistan whenever possible.

Kashmir may be the core issue to our political indifferences but India too has been active in other fronts including Balochistan. BLA for one was funded by RAW and KGB!Your government has tried to take advantage of 9/11 by linking the freedom strugglke to international terrorism but infact you've intensified attrocities by IA in the name of WoT!.

Well yes we might have, so. We have our own proxy war. Post 9-111 has thrown us oppurtunities to divert pakistan;s attention from east to west, which si to India's benefit. Unlike Pakistan we are not using our soil to train and arm these extremists thus protecting the Indians.

Stop state sponsored terrorism in Kashmir and recall your agents from Afghanistan and we'll talk. .

We dont want to talk, its Mushraff who wants to talk. Why? bcoz we have played our cards well and he knows he cant carry on with his 'fight for Kashmiri bros'.

We haven't prioritsed Kashmir above all but I'll agree that we've neglected other issues due Kashmir as Sir Niaz explained above..

Thats exactly what prioristisation means!!!

Btw radicalisation of parts of Pakistan are not to be blaimed on Kashmir, its rather due fall out of Afghan war. Your theory will sell well on Indian and western boards though. .

Well right. JeM was found in Lm along with Talibans and uzbeks(?). And you want me to believe that they are all inter linked.

Kashmir or no Kashmir, India is arming itself to the teeth and will remain a threat for her neighbors..

Well we have our threat perceptions and countires in our neighbourhood with whjom we have fought battles and with whom we continue to have border disputes. So when we have the money we shall do whats possible.

Its only for the people of Kashmir to decide what they want, you can't drop claims on land which is not yours in the first place.Kashmir officially is still a disputed territory.

What official? Who discusses kashmir now? I