OPPORTUNITY - Pentagon suspends weapon deliveries to Iraq, leaving Iraqi F-16 fleet in the air

[Genghis khan1]

Try to be a little practical, what is our issue with Iraq that they will somehow fly all the way to fight Pakistan.

If you know anything about Iraqis, They will make a u-turn so quick (Indian equation), that Pakistan will not even know what happened.

Couple of dozen nukes as well, maybe!
You think we'll get discounted oil in return? or some sort of job quota in Iraq ?

Nukes??? Sure, $2000 and Iraqis will publish everything Pakistan provided on the internet.

They weren’t even able to guard their own Nuke (traitors) when things were good in Iraq.

 

[mingle]

American contractor already left Balad base leaving F16s behind without maintenance only Iraqi army left there whom they don't trust and I don't see situation get back to normal any time soon. Lets see how this played out.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Unless Iraq agrees to use the money it makes from selling the F-16s to buy another US fighter, the US will not allow a sale/transfer to Pakistan.

What's if Pakistan gained these airframes through hook or crook?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

What's if Pakistan gained these airframes through hook or crook?

It would be amazing if it could. The 36 F-16IQs would help the PAF get to its original (pre-earthquake) plan of 55 F-16C/D Block-52+ at a lower cost than buying new airframes. But with Pakistan, good things rarely happen, it's our lot in life -- so we must think in terms of "how" to do things, not "if" they can happen.

 

[Beast]

What's if Pakistan gained these airframes through hook or crook?

I don't think PAF will try to anger US at this moment.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Iraq has always been pro india

Try to be a little practical, what is our issue with Iraq that they will somehow fly all the way to fight Pakistan.

You nailed it, this is what absolutely disgusts me about most Pakistani posters, they don't let any opportunity to pass without showing their beggar mentality. It's sickening to read posts like these and mods live in their own world probably thinking "mod" means modern, no idiots it means "moderator", a person who moderates a discussion or debate to cut off/ sensor stupid posts.

Pakistan has single and twin seater JF17

Block 3 with ASEA and BVR

but our beggar mentality will never change

 

[airomerix]

US did sell us F-16 support equipment which was previously destined for Iraq back in the early 80s.

But Iraq giving us something against US interest is not going to happen.

 

[GriffinsRule]

US did sell us F-16 support equipment which was previously destined for Iraq back in the early 80s.

But Iraq giving us something against US interest is not going to happen.

I think that was destined for Iran, not Iraq ... however it was the US that did so. What will happen to these F-16s is what has happened to a lot of western aircraft in ME before. They end up in storage. Pakistan has no chances on acquiring these right now, and Iraq might not want to let them go yet either.
But if they do become inoperable in Iraq due to shortage of parts or skilled techs, then maybe down the line we could get the US to okay the 3rd party sale. Dont count on it happening yet though.
Instead, we should double our focus on selling them JF-17s instead. That would be a bigger win in for Pakistan than acquiring these F-16s

 

[PradoTLC]

Doubt India will go for F16s so its pointless for them. Pakistan doesn't have the money for now (as far as I am aware). I guess one of the ME countries will prob buy them if they get a chance to but if Pakistan can get these then it would be a bonus I guess.

i agree.. also india doesnt want some thing that reminds them why it's rear hurts too much

 

[LeGenD]

Look let's be honest

Pakistan itself has suffered from the U.S's casual strings attached approach to weapons supply

I can write a long post of where, when and how the U.S can suddenly for its own interests leave a country high and dry and unable to use purchased weapons or have existing weapons maintained etc

But what's the point


Bottom line is you can't trust the U.S so for Muslim countries especially there is no point in trying to buying American weapons that require long term U.S approval or involvement


Whether it be Iraq or Egypt etc , we should be pushing a no strings attached JF17 to multiple countries to work in partnership with other aircraft

Muslim countries need to wean themselves off U.S weapons

Bro,

I see this matter in the context of protecting own investment and what is good for a state at large. Iraq have invested a great sum in buying these aircraft and creating infrastructure to manage them - in the billions of USD territory.

If Iraq is to buy a new aircraft on par with F-16 Block 50/52 even in theory, it will have to expend additional amount of billions of USD for the needful.

High quality weapons are not cheap - there is no such thing as a Rs.30,000/- gadget being on par with Rs.100,000/- gadget in functions and performance. Never! Not even in the case of "Made in China." Brochure specifications are worthless because a gadget will not show its true capacity until it stressed.

Now Iraqi Shia politicians are telling US to get out because they killed an IRGC commander - Americans are understandably pissed. Bear in mind that Americans have played a vital role in helping Iraq overcome dreadful ISIS movement. ISIS would have eaten Iraqi Shia groups alive if not for American and Iraqi military on the frontlines.

However, Iraqi Shia groups are an incredibly ungrateful lot. They are closet Iranian stooges which is really shameful. They should pay attention to needs of Iraq only.

Iraqi Sunni and Kurd whose homes ISIS ravaged, are understandably pissed as well. They want to make sure that FITNA of ISIS does not return to the region. Entire Iraq should be onboard in this matter.

Imagine a TTP situation in Pakistan wherein a province is indifferent to this menace. Other provinces would be branding this one traitorous or undeclared brothers of TTP.

My point is that Iraq needs to protect its investments and care about its own interests on a national level. Iraqi Shia groups should be ashamed of themselves; they will steer Iraq towards the path of utter RUIN. They are not alone in making decisions for Iraq; they have to work with Iraqi Sunni and Kurd over national issues.

Iraqi Shia groups risk alienating not only USA but Iraqi Sunni and Kurd as well with their utter foolishness. They are utterly deluded if they think that they can bully USA into submission with blessings of Iran. They will prefer to tear the country asunder instead instead of gifting it to Iran on a silver plate, given Iranian motives. A grounded F-16 fleet is the least of worries. Iran is an absolute beneficiary of chaos in Iraq; a strong united Iraq is bad news for Iran.

Now is the right time for Iraq to consolidate its gains over ISIS and build a national consensus over its interests. Now is not the time to bow down to Iran and tell US to pack its bags and leave. There is appropriate time for every decision. Iraq needs a strong military to manage its security in the long-term. Disbanding Iraqi PMUs would be a good start.

Being RATIONAL is the point.

 

[Signalian]

There are few other opportunities for years now.

1. Venezuela.
21 x F-16 A/B out of which only handful, probably 6 are in full mission capability spectrum.

2. Denmark.
Around 30 x F-16 A/B MLU are in service, to be replaced.

3. Belgian AF
Some 50 x F-16 A/B MLU are to be replaced by F-35.

4. Norwegian and Dutch Airforce
Plenty of F-16 MLU flown by both AFs and to be replaced by F-35. Chilean AF has bought F-16 Block 15 MLU from Dutch AF in 2009.

5. Jordan
Jordan has around 16-17 x F-16 Block 15 ADF for which rumors were that PAF was in talks to buy. Jordan replaced the 13 x F-16 ADF it sold to PAF by buying 15 x F-16 Block 20 MLU from Dutch AF.
So far Jordan has bought 46 x F-16 Block 20 MLU from Belgian and Dutch AF.

If TuAF had acquired those 100+ F-35, then maybe door had opened up for PAF to get more F-16s from Turkey, but not going to happen.


The Raád ALCM issue.

6. Qatar
Mirage-2000 would be retired after Typhoon and F-15 QA are acquired. PAF can buy 2 airframes to evaluate Ra'ad ALCM integration.

7. Brazil
Brazil retired 12 x Mirage2000 and sold 9 x Mirage2000 back to France. PAF can either get Mirage2000 airframes from France or Brazil to evaluate Raád Integration.

It would be amazing if it could. The 36 F-16IQs would help the PAF get to its original (pre-earthquake) plan of 55 F-16C/D Block-52+ at a lower cost than buying new airframes. But with Pakistan, good things rarely happen, it's our lot in life -- so we must think in terms of "how" to do things, not "if" they can happen.

The context of F-16 Block 70/72 for PAF should be IAF acquisition of Rafale, since Uncle Sam doesn't let the balance tilt in the region, so 18 x F-16 Block 70/72 shouldn't affect the delicate pivot in face of 36 Rafale.

What's if Pakistan gained these airframes through hook or crook?

US has officials deputed on PAF bases housing F-16 who are officially responsible for security of technology of F-16 so F-16 transfer will never go un-noticed. By the way, why make it secretive ? Coz USA won't allow transfer? Then negotiate.

Present day Iraq is not the same as it was once back in history. Actually it's not possible to figure out, who represent Iraq. Diplomatically Iraq is a buddy of India.

There are more chance that Iraqis would use that training against Pakistan, instead of fighting war with occupying forces! We tried training northern alliance during Zardair rule, but they used it against Pakistan.

On the subject, what was US thinking, when they were gifting F-16 to a destabilized state?

Then use the USA tactic of selling less technology advanced variant of JF-17 (like F-16/79), which could be upgradable from Block I to Block III if certain conditions are met after certain years, for an extra cost.

USA has better aircrafts than F-16 even if Iraqi AF goes rogue. F-16, F-18, F-15, F-35 and F-22 Vs F-16. Not a comfortable scenario for F-16.

US did sell us F-16 support equipment which was previously destined for Iraq back in the early 80s.

But Iraq giving us something against US interest is not going to happen.

Iran, not Iraq

Considering the JF-17 is a PAC/CAC project where PAC is owned by the Air Force; and If Pakistan can secure a large sale of the JF-17 (3-4 squadrons at least; 45-60 planes) the PAF should funnel some of that money back into a J-10C purchase. This will send a message that the PAF has transitioned away from the F-16, and can keep transitioning away if force to do so, as is being done to Iraq.

Funnel funds back to Azm Project. PAF won't buy J-10.

In reality, PAF will start looking for more new/used F-16s from those funds.

We can have a double game with iran, to keep them in check, Pak must assist iraq in military. Iran Iraq war and Pakistan’s support to iran set the iraqis off, they have a special hate for Pakistanis.

Is iraq recieving all this through aid or own money ?

PAF can get F-16s quicker and at a lower price, if Pakistan starts Ops against Iranian forces e.g. If Pakistan directly uses PN against Chabahar port, targets, damages, destroys Iranian vessels and aircrafts and above all assists USA/NATO in conducting Ops against Iran.

If PAF joins Yemen war along with Saudi and UAE, then maybe PAF sees F-15E in its inventory too, but the Iran will give India full rights of Pak-Iran border, to be used as India seems happy. Chabahar port will see Indian military assets flowing in as Iran will let India set up its military facilities under the pretext of Chabahar port security and otherwise.

Let the border wall with Iran and Afghanistan get built.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

The context of F-16 Block 70/72 for PAF should be IAF acquisition of Rafale, since Uncle Sam doesn't let the balance tilt in the region, so 18 x F-16 Block 70/72 shouldn't affect the delicate pivot in face of 36 Rafale.

Its not the jet only sir. Its the weapon too. Meteor is a long range and capable BVR. Do u think we can get AIM120Ds too against Meteor?

The Raád ALCM issue.

6. Qatar
Mirage-2000 would be retired after Typhoon and F-15 QA are acquired. PAF can buy 2 airframes to evaluate Ra'ad ALCM integration.

7. Brazil
Brazil retired 12 x Mirage2000 and sold 9 x Mirage2000 back to France. PAF can either get Mirage2000 airframes from France or Brazil to evaluate Raád Integration.

Aren't our Thunders capable of RA'AD integeration?

 

[Signalian]

Its not the jet only sir. Its the weapon too. Meteor is a long range and capable BVR. Do u think we can get AIM120Ds too against Meteor?

A variant of R-77 has more range than meteor. No escape zone matters.

Aren't our Thunders capable of RA'AD integeration?

Search and let me know too. i would be happy if JF-17 can fire Ra ád.

 

[StormBreaker]

There are few other opportunities for years now.

1. Venezuela.
21 x F-16 A/B out of which only handful, probably 6 are in full mission capability spectrum.

2. Denmark.
Around 30 x F-16 A/B MLU are in service, to be replaced.

3. Belgian AF
Some 50 x F-16 A/B MLU are to be replaced by F-35.

4. Norwegian and Dutch Airforce
Plenty of F-16 MLU flown by both AFs and to be replaced by F-35. Chilean AF has bought F-16 Block 15 MLU from Dutch AF in 2009.

5. Jordan
Jordan has around 16-17 x F-16 Block 15 ADF for which rumors were that PAF was in talks to buy. Jordan replaced the 13 x F-16 ADF it sold to PAF by buying 15 x F-16 Block 20 MLU from Dutch AF.
So far Jordan has bought 46 x F-16 Block 20 MLU from Belgian and Dutch AF.

If TuAF had acquired those 100+ F-35, then maybe door had opened up for PAF to get more F-16s from Turkey, but not going to happen.


The Raád ALCM issue.

6. Qatar
Mirage-2000 would be retired after Typhoon and F-15 QA are acquired. PAF can buy 2 airframes to evaluate Ra'ad ALCM integration.

7. Brazil
Brazil retired 12 x Mirage2000 and sold 9 x Mirage2000 back to France. PAF can either get Mirage2000 airframes from France or Brazil to evaluate Raád Integration.


The context of F-16 Block 70/72 for PAF should be IAF acquisition of Rafale, since Uncle Sam doesn't let the balance tilt in the region, so 18 x F-16 Block 70/72 shouldn't affect the delicate pivot in face of 36 Rafale.


US has officials deputed on PAF bases housing F-16 who are officially responsible for security of technology of F-16 so F-16 transfer will never go un-noticed. By the way, why make it secretive ? Coz USA won't allow transfer? Then negotiate.



Then use the USA tactic of selling less technology advanced variant of JF-17 (like F-16/79), which could be upgradable from Block I to Block III if certain conditions are met after certain years, for an extra cost.

USA has better aircrafts than F-16 even if Iraqi AF goes rogue. F-16, F-18, F-15, F-35 and F-22 Vs F-16. Not a comfortable scenario for F-16.


Iran, not Iraq


Funnel funds back to Azm Project. PAF won't buy J-10.

In reality, PAF will start looking for more new/used F-16s from those funds.


PAF can get F-16s quicker and at a lower price, if Pakistan starts Ops against Iranian forces e.g. If Pakistan directly uses PN against Chabahar port, targets, damages, destroys Iranian vessels and aircrafts and above all assists USA/NATO in conducting Ops against Iran.

If PAF joins Yemen war along with Saudi and UAE, then maybe PAF sees F-15E in its inventory too, but the Iran will give India full rights of Pak-Iran border, to be used as India seems happy. Chabahar port will see Indian military assets flowing in as Iran will let India set up its military facilities under the pretext of Chabahar port security and otherwise.

Let the border wall with Iran and Afghanistan get built.

@Hodor @airomerix

In terms of operating differences and cockpit layout and features, how different are M2k compared to the Mirages PAF uses ?

The reason to ask this is, in a hypothetical scenario, where PAF decides to somehow gather up 2 squadron strength of retired Mirage 2000s from others, how much time would it take for us to operate and get used to it as compared to our own Mirages.

So, if there are less differences, time taken will be less and vice versa. However, I don’t see such happening coz some people will go crying to france...

 

[Signalian]

@Hodor @airomerix

In terms of operating differences and cockpit layout and features, how different are M2k compared to the Mirages PAF uses ?

The reason to ask this is, in a hypothetical scenario, where PAF decides to somehow gather up 2 squadron strength of retired Mirage 2000s from others, how much time would it take for us to operate and get used to it as compared to our own Mirages.

So, if there are less differences, time taken will be less and vice versa. However, I don’t see such happening coz some people will go crying to france...

Mirage 2000 comes in picture between the time frame of retiring Mirage III and operating the aircraft that is delivered out of Azm. That time frame needs to be addressed with good capability, not a handicap.

Hoping that Azm has catered for Ra ád