Opinionated - Does Pakistan Matter?

[peagle]

I posted something similar a long time ago, the last time I was on this forum.
Somehow, it feels like an apt moment to repeat and review the truth behind this statement.

Considering Pakistan always seems to be in the limelight for one reason or another.
Let us judge, how influential Pakistan has been in our region, following are my conclusions, which perhaps are a little foretelling of the future.



America vs. the Soviet Union in the cold war
>> America won, supported by > PAKISTAN

America wanted to have good relations with China
>> America did, supported by > PAKISTAN

America wanted to defeat the Soviets in Afghanistan
>> America did, supported by > PAKISTAN

India, Russia, Iran, CAR’s, all Afghan groups against the Taliban
>> Taliban won, supported by > PAKISTAN

American Invasion of Afghanistan vs. Taliban
>> Taliban won, supported by > PAKISTAN

Russia vs. America (Europeans are just puppets, they don't count)
>> to be decided by CHINA > possibly supported by PAKISTAN

America vs. China
>> To be decided, who will be supported by > PAKISTAN


It seems the only side that keeps winning is the side that is supported by PAKISTAN.

 

[dbc]

America wanted to have good relations with China
>> America did, supported by > PAKISTAN

Pakistan's role in relation building with Mao's China and Nixon is overstated.

In the late 1960's the Soviets offered Nixon a graceful exit from Vietnam in return for assistance in neutralising China's nuclear program. Kissinger leaked the Soviet plans to Mao via the Chinese Embassy in Warsaw earning him a personal clandestine visit with an ailing Chairman Mao via a secret PAF flight into Beijing in 1971 and the rest as they say is history.

Remember Indian troops clubbed to death by PLA in 2020, similar events were a daily occurrence on the Sino-Soviet border in the late 60's eventually resulting in a brief border war in 69.

Relations between the USSR and China Post 1965

After Russia’s military intervention in Czechoslovakia, its relations with China hit an all-time low. How close was a conflict?

www.thegreatcoursesdaily.com

 

[peagle]

Pakistan's role in relation building with Mao's China and Nixon is overstated.

In the late 1960's the Soviets offered Nixon a graceful exit from Vietnam in return for assistance in neutralising China's nuclear program. Kissinger leaked the Soviet plans to Mao via the Chinese Embassy in Warsaw earning him a personal clandestine visit with an ailing Chairman Mao via a secret PAF flight into Beijing in 1971 and the rest as they say is history.

Remember Indian troops clubbed to death by PLA in 2020, similar events were a daily occurrence on the Sino-Soviet border in the late 60's eventually resulting in a brief border war in 69.

Relations between the USSR and China Post 1965

After Russia’s military intervention in Czechoslovakia, its relations with China hit an all-time low. How close was a conflict?

www.thegreatcoursesdaily.com

I recognise what you said, but I think you may have misunderstood what I said.
I did not make tall claims, neither did I claim Pakistan was instrumental. But you are being unfair to say it was merely a case of catching a flight.

America and China are two large countries fully capable of handling their own affairs, but they needed a conduit for rapprochement, what role that conduit played isn't totally relevant, but Pakistan was that conduit, the only country trusted by both the nations. That is a fact.

It's like if Bill Gates wants to secretly meet Jeff Bezos, and he asks you to drive him there and help make arrangements. You may not have played a role in the arranging the meeting, or in the meeting itself, but the fact that you were trusted to help is important and can't be written off. That's how international relations work.

Whatever role was played, but you cannot deny that Pakistan was the only country in the world that played a role. It has to be recognised.

 

[Zarf]

Whatever role was played, but you cannot deny that Pakistan was the only country in the world that play a role. It has to be recognised.

Pakistan's role in relation building with Mao's China and Nixon is overstated.

It was recognized by Clinton when he visited Pakistan for a few hours after going back to the US from India. He also gave us a lecture on National TV (by the way it was clearly a lecture). What an embarrassing day it was.

 

[peagle]

It was recognized by Clinton when he visited Pakistan for a few hours after going back to the US from India. He also gave us a lecture on National TV (by the way it was clearly a lecture). What an embarrassing day it was.

I don't see how that is relevant.
If you mean that the Americans were and are ungrateful, then yes, you are right.

Whether someone recognises something or not isn't relevant to the truth. The facts remain the same.

Don't forget America sanctioned Pakistan from 1965-82, then again from 1990-2002. So no one is here to do you favours.
It doesn't mean you don't highlight your own facts in history, please get real and stop looking at yourself through someone else's eyes.

 

[Silverblaze]

Pakistan's strategic value is what gives it a major advantage and projects power.
Turkey, Egypt, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia are strategically located muslim countries and major powers even unwillingly want to keep a better relationship with them and do not want govt that are against their interests.

But the loss Pakistan has suffered itself cannot be understated Kashmir and E Pakistan are prime examples.

Pakistan will matter more if it becomes economically stronger. My personal wish is to see Pakistan join G-20 one day and be amongst the top 5 military powers and force india to give up Kashmir. This is achievable but highly difficult.

 

[Flash_Ninja]

Pakistan's role in relation building with Mao's China and Nixon is overstated.

In the late 1960's the Soviets offered Nixon a graceful exit from Vietnam in return for assistance in neutralising China's nuclear program. Kissinger leaked the Soviet plans to Mao via the Chinese Embassy in Warsaw earning him a personal clandestine visit with an ailing Chairman Mao via a secret PAF flight into Beijing in 1971 and the rest as they say is history.

Remember Indian troops clubbed to death by PLA in 2020, similar events were a daily occurrence on the Sino-Soviet border in the late 60's eventually resulting in a brief border war in 69.

Relations between the USSR and China Post 1965

After Russia’s military intervention in Czechoslovakia, its relations with China hit an all-time low. How close was a conflict?

www.thegreatcoursesdaily.com

I think the point is that Pakistan played the role of facilitator between the two. Without Pakistan relations may have been pushed back many years as both nations were unwilling or unable to conduct diplomacy directly. As you stated Kissingers flight was conducted by and from Pakistan, which makes it a significant factor in Chinese-American diplomatic history.

 

[dbc]

I recognise what you said, but I think you may have misunderstood what I said.
I did not make tall claims, neither did I claim Pakistan was instrumental. But you are being unfair to say it was merely a case of catching a flight.

Yes, Pakistan was a facilitator and helped keep the early engagement secret. But the US decision to abandon Taiwan (one China policy), a seat for the CCP at the UN security council and the Chinese decision to extract itself from Soviet hyphenation was due to mutual distrust of the Russians..

 

[peagle]

Yes, Pakistan was a facilitator and helped keep the early engagement secret. But the US decision to abandon Taiwan (one China policy), a seat for the CCP at the UN security council and the Chinese decision to extract itself from Soviet hyphenation was due to mutual distrust of the Russians..

Off-course, most countries in the world are minor players, even the ones with permanent seats on the security council, that's a fact of life.
But everyone tries to highlight their role, even if it's just standing in a group picture.

What Pakistan did was more then just standing in a picture, it actively facilitated the two parties, if not Pakistan it would have been someone else, but the only country capable of playing this role was Pakistan.

Just like we are born out of our mothers womb, if not us, it would have been someone else, the fact is, it is you/me us, that's why we celebrate our birth.

There's nothing wrong with recognising the role played by Pakistan, the only country out of around 150 at the time.

 

[Last starfighter]

I wonder what the massoomana savaal was that the US said to IK ???
( cease and desist)

 

[nahtanbob]

I posted something similar a long time ago, the last time I was on this forum.
Somehow, it feels like an apt moment to repeat and review the truth behind this statement.

Considering Pakistan always seems to be in the limelight for one reason or another.
Let us judge, how influential Pakistan has been in our region, following are my conclusions, which perhaps are a little foretelling of the future.



America vs. the Soviet Union in the cold war
>> America won, supported by > PAKISTAN

America wanted to have good relations with China
>> America did, supported by > PAKISTAN

America wanted to defeat the Soviets in Afghanistan
>> America did, supported by > PAKISTAN

India, Russia, Iran, CAR’s, all Afghan groups against the Taliban
>> Taliban won, supported by > PAKISTAN

American Invasion of Afghanistan vs. Taliban
>> Taliban won, supported by > PAKISTAN

Russia vs. America (Europeans are just puppets, they don't count)
>> to be decided by CHINA > possibly supported by PAKISTAN

America vs. China
>> To be decided, who will be supported by > PAKISTAN


It seems the only side that keeps winning is the side that is supported by PAKISTAN.

Is there a level of grandeur and delusion here ?

USA and Soviet Union in the cold war ? What do you think was the main theater in the cold war ? What is Pakistan's role here ?

 

[peagle]

Is there a level of grandeur and delusion here ?

USA and Soviet Union in the cold war ? What do you think was the main theater in the cold war ? What is Pakistan's role here ?

Why are you asking empty questions?
Is there a level grandeur and delusion in your approach and mind-set?

Why are you rejecting facts without basis?
Isn't it childish to contribute to a discussion only with questions like a nursery student?


If you have something to say, they say it, time to grow up.

 

[lastofthepatriots]

I posted something similar a long time ago, the last time I was on this forum.
Somehow, it feels like an apt moment to repeat and review the truth behind this statement.

Considering Pakistan always seems to be in the limelight for one reason or another.
Let us judge, how influential Pakistan has been in our region, following are my conclusions, which perhaps are a little foretelling of the future.



America vs. the Soviet Union in the cold war
>> America won, supported by > PAKISTAN

America wanted to have good relations with China
>> America did, supported by > PAKISTAN

America wanted to defeat the Soviets in Afghanistan
>> America did, supported by > PAKISTAN

India, Russia, Iran, CAR’s, all Afghan groups against the Taliban
>> Taliban won, supported by > PAKISTAN

American Invasion of Afghanistan vs. Taliban
>> Taliban won, supported by > PAKISTAN

Russia vs. America (Europeans are just puppets, they don't count)
>> to be decided by CHINA > possibly supported by PAKISTAN

America vs. China
>> To be decided, who will be supported by > PAKISTAN


It seems the only side that keeps winning is the side that is supported by PAKISTAN.

Full Sapphort SAR!

I think it’s time for Pakistan to support Pakistan, if this is the golden formula.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

I posted something similar a long time ago, the last time I was on this forum.
Somehow, it feels like an apt moment to repeat and review the truth behind this statement.

Considering Pakistan always seems to be in the limelight for one reason or another.
Let us judge, how influential Pakistan has been in our region, following are my conclusions, which perhaps are a little foretelling of the future.



America vs. the Soviet Union in the cold war
>> America won, supported by > PAKISTAN

America wanted to have good relations with China
>> America did, supported by > PAKISTAN

America wanted to defeat the Soviets in Afghanistan
>> America did, supported by > PAKISTAN

India, Russia, Iran, CAR’s, all Afghan groups against the Taliban
>> Taliban won, supported by > PAKISTAN

American Invasion of Afghanistan vs. Taliban
>> Taliban won, supported by > PAKISTAN

Russia vs. America (Europeans are just puppets, they don't count)
>> to be decided by CHINA > possibly supported by PAKISTAN

America vs. China
>> To be decided, who will be supported by > PAKISTAN


It seems the only side that keeps winning is the side that is supported by PAKISTAN.

Pakistan matters to Pakistanis. To non-Pakistanis, it doesn't.

 

[peagle]

Full Sapphort SAR!

I think it’s time for Pakistan to support Pakistan, if this is the golden formula.

The formula is that the world, every country plays a part, has a role in something, they shout about it even when it's nothing.
Other nations have delusions of grandeur, but it is shocking when it comes to Pakistan, any recognition of any kind is shouted down.

It is illegal to say anything positive about Pakistan, you cannot recognise anything about Pakistan even when facts are naked, because you will be drowned by the naysayers from around the globe, and self-loathing Pakistanis.

I have even read many posts here that Pakistan had no role in kicking the Soviets out of Afghanistan, shameless lies are readily accepted. Facts are turned into fiction because, it is illegal to recognise anything contributed by Pakistan in a positive light.

Although, I love your conclusion, it is important to highlight what Pakistan has done and how important it was, because other nation claim and shout about things of far lesser significance.