On this day, Two IAF Migs are shot down

[Zarvan]

Kargil without doubt was one of the most ill planned operation. Only few Generals knew and we face severe losses but still it isn't Indian Victory because we still have two highest peaks in Kargil Area in our control. And those who know about mountain warfare know the one sitting at more height than you has the upper hand.

 

[AKD]

Pakistan still occupies four kargil peaks

​

On July 26, the country celebrates Vijay Diwas to commemorate India’s victory in the Kargil war. But five years since the war, four strategic Indian posts in Kargil are still under Pakistani control and the government is not ready to spell out the truth, reports VK Shashikumar

Point 5353, Bunker Ridge, Saddle Ridge, Dalu Nag. These are posts in the Kargil sector that the soldiers of the Indian army knew incontrovertibly to be their own. They form a sort of memory map of disjointed emplacements along the treacherous mountains in the Kargil sector. Features that are joined in various military maps of the area by dotted lines.

Army sources confirmed to Tehelka that at least two of these features are under Pakistani control, thanks to botched up military operations and a government that wanted to hide the truth. The fate of the other two features, Dalu Nag and Bunker Ridge, is still shrouded in mystery.

“Dalu Nag is certainly in the Kargil sector, but it has a history of its own since the 1980s. It has nothing to do with Kargil operations. Some parts of Dalu Nag may have been occupied by them at that time,” former army chief Ved Prakash Malik told Tehelka. “I do not know what exact locations are being referred to by these names,” he added referring to Saddle Ridge and Bunker Ridge.

For the officers and jawans ordered to engage the intruders in a near-impossible battle, this is more humiliating than the government’s negation of the gains made by the army in the 1965 war. But then, Kargil would probably have never happened if the Tashkent Agreement was not signed in 1965. Even in 1999, India gave Pakistan a walkover and enabled it to retain territory that was always under Indian control. And then, the government misled the nation that Kargil had been cleared of all Pakistani intruders.

Former defence minister George Fernandes, argued that the LoC runs over Pt 5353 and, therefore, was unoccupied by either countries till Kargil happened. A point which is not true.

Ironically, though it was the bjp-led government that hid the truth, the Congress-led upa government is also reluctant to clarify. Tehelka sent a questionnaire to Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee asking him to spell out the truth about the four posts. But at the time of going to print, he had not replied.

Meanwhile, within the army at the level of middle and junior level officers and the brave jawans, there is discontent. Any army unit that has done its tour of duty in Kargil after the war in the summer of 1999 has heard about the secrets locked up in the forbidding heights.

Perhaps it is painful for the army top brass to admit that Operation Vijay was not really an unalloyed victory.

Indians losses were so high, they ran out of coffins and this is at the height of sanctions when we were probably at our weakest.

Kabhi khusbu laga key aao na point 5353 lainey.

As per for you false propaganda point 5353 is on LOC and is surrounded by indian hills

 

[volatile]

Kargil was the big blunder and nothing else ,Not even Air force was in confidence .It was based on assumptions but those assumptions were wrong ,Pressure came from all over the world as no one was involved ,that shows a failure in our strategy

 

[Windjammer]

Indian newspapers and their public believe--or say they believe--that the conflict in Dras-Kargil last year was a military victory for India. In fact, it was a war 'won' by briefings and a slavishly supportive media. The Indian public wanted to be assured of 'victory,' and every effort was made to provide that assurance. Kargil was disastrous for Pakistan in worldwide political terms, and was an important public relations coup for the Indian government, both internally (in the run-up to the election), and internationally. But militarily it was a shambles for India whose brave but ill-prepared soldiers suffered gravely and would have sustained even heavier casualties had the conflict continued. The prime minister of Pakistan was ordered by the president of the United States to withdraw his troops from a successful military operation and this was done in time to save the Vajpayee government from the wave of criticism that would have swamped it had the confrontation not been stopped.

Source: "War Drums are Beating" Brian Cloughley.

 

[guest11]

http://www.dawn.com/news/216034/clinton-adviser-confusion-gripped-islamabad-during-kargil-crisis

There was confusion in Islamabad during the Kargil crisis and it was not clear who was calling the shots, says Bruce Riedel, President Clinton’s special assistant for South Asian affairs who played a key role in the US-Pakistan talks on the issue.

Mr Riedel, who was the only person to attend the Sharif-Clinton talks in Washington on July 4, 1999, said in a paper on ‘America diplomacy and 1999 Kargil summit’ that the then prime minister Nawaz Sharif ‘seemed genuinely interested in pursuing the Lahore process’.

Mr Riedel’s version shows the former prime minister as getting ‘increasingly desperate’ to end the crisis. He says: “(Mr)


Sharif became increasingly desperate as he saw how isolated Pakistan was in the world. He urgently requested American intervention to stop the Indian counterattack. Washington was clear the solution required a Pakistani withdrawal behind the LoC, nothing else would do.”

According to Mr Riedel, by end of June 1999, Mr Sharif began to ask to see President Clinton directly to plead his case. “The president also consulted with (the then) Indian Prime Minister (Atal Bihari) Vajpayee on the phone. The Indians were adamant: withdrawal to the LOC was essential. (Mr) Vajpayee would not negotiate under the threat of aggression.” President Clinton “sought to reassure Mr Vajpayee that we would not countenance Pakistani aggression, not reward them for violating the LoC and that we stood by our commitment to the Lahore process, i.e. direct talks between India and Pakistan were the only solution to Kashmir, not third party intervention.”

Mr Riedel then explains how before meeting Mr Sharif, President Clinton had asked his advisers to prepare two statements about the results of the meeting.

“The first was a draft statement the President would issue if (Mr) Sharif agreed to pull back his forces to the LoC, the second a statement which would be used if (Mr) Sharif refused. The latter would make clear that the blame for the crisis in South Asia lay solely with Pakistan.”

Mr Riedel says that US officials also noted that Mr Sharif brought his wife and children with him to Washington. “(Mr) Sharif’s intentions also became clearer. He was bringing his wife and children with him to Washington, a possible indication that he was afraid he might not be able to go home if the summit failed or that the military was telling him to leave. At a minimum, (Mr) Sharif seemed to be hedging his bet on whether this would be a round trip.”

He then explains how the Clinton administration took the highly unusual decision of not sending a US official to the airport to receive Mr Sharif.

Mr Sharif would be met at Dulles Airport, where his commercial PIA flight was being diverted from JFK, by the Saudi Ambassador Prince Bandar bin Sultan. The Saudi prince had a long history of helping assist key American diplomatic initiatives and also had worked with Pakistan extensively in the past during the Afghan war against the Soviets.

Prince Bandar asked for a briefing on what President Clinton needed from Mr Sharif. “I met with him in his McLean home and gave him our sense of the crisis. Bandar promised to weigh in forcefully with (Mr) Sharif on the ride from Dulles to Blair House, and he secured Crown Prince Abdallah’s support for our position.”

Soon after Mr Sharif arrived, Prince Bandar called Mr Riedel and told that the Pakistani PM was “distraught, deeply worried about the direction the crisis was going toward disaster, but equally worried about his own hold on power and the threat from his military chiefs who were pressing for a tough stand. In the meeting, President Clinton asked for “a full and complete withdrawal without pre-conditions” from Kargil and also warned him that “there could be no quid pro quo, no hint that America was rewarding Pakistan for its aggression, nor for threatening its nuclear arsenal at India.”

Mr Riedel says that US officials also noted that Mr Sharif brought his wife and children with him to Washington. “(Mr) Sharif’s intentions also became clearer. He was bringing his wife and children with him to Washington, a possible indication that he was afraid he might not be able to go home if the summit failed or that the military was telling him to leave. At a minimum, (Mr) Sharif seemed to be hedging his bet on whether this would be a round trip.”


http://www.dawn.com/news/216034/clinton-adviser-confusion-gripped-islamabad-during-kargil-crisis

 

[IceCold]

The prime minister of Pakistan was ordered by the president of the United States to withdraw his troops from a successful military operation.

This is our aukaat janab forget about anything else. I still remember NS went on a commercial flight to US and surrendered. Can it get any pathetic than that. That was the day i actually lost all respect for him. He is an idiot who unfortunately is again the PM of this country.

 

[Jamwal's]

Kargil without doubt was one of the most ill planned operation. Only few Generals knew and we face severe losses but still it isn't Indian Victory because we still have two highest peaks in Kargil Area in our control. And those who know about mountain warfare know the one sitting at more height than you has the upper hand.

That's very informative post, you seems to have much knowledge about mountain warfare.

So which was the highest peak during kargil war again ?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.rediff.com/news/report/kargil-was-a-disaster-musharraf-tried-to-cover-it-up/20130127.htm

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world...lly-in-dark/story-UNlJGHuXcmuLhsBNxJ9GRK.html




'Kargil war a disaster, Musharraf tried to cover it up' - Former ISI Chief


Aziz said the operation was a "failure" and the actual figure for Pakistani casualties was still not known.



"Three years later, a study commenced by GHQ to identify issues of concern at the lowest levels of command, was forcefully stopped by him. ‘What is your intent?' he asked.


Lieutenant General Aziz added, "We continue to indulge in bloody enterprises, under the hoax of safeguarding national interest. How many more medals will we put on coffins? How many more songs are we to sing? And how many more martyrs will our silences hide? If there is purpose to war then yes, we shall all go to the battle front. But a war where truth has to be hidden makes one wonder whose interest is it serving?"

 

[ShoutB]

Kargil without doubt was one of the most ill planned operation. Only few Generals knew and we face severe losses but still it isn't Indian Victory because we still have two highest peaks in Kargil Area in our control. And those who know about mountain warfare know the one sitting at more height than you has the upper hand.

I need mangoes, I went to market, got tomatoes and I am making tomato shake. That's not victory, but compromise!

Those posts are well surrounded by Indian post and Indian soldiers can dump tons on ammo on your posts

 

[EAK]

A thread on Two migs getting shot in history.. And everybody losses it's sh!t..

 

[Rafael]

Indians find Pakistani sources claiming defeat, Pakistanis find Indian sources claiming India's defeat.

Nobody will know the truth as that is the first casualty in a war!

 

[SSGcommandoPAK]

India WON the kargil War ; Pakistan LOST it ; despite USA being your friend

even though we were fighting defensively and with restraint

And when we Threatened to EXPAND the conflict across the International Border
General Musharraf WENT TO USA for HELP

It was Pakistan which was PREPARING fora Nuclear war because it was
worried about INDIAN ARMY storming across the International Border

It was Pakistan which Lost Both the Kargil War on the LAND
and suffered a Massive diplomatic embarrassment and Loss of face : PERIOD



Those planes were NOT flying over Pakistani territory

Your soldiers on the peaks INSIDE our territory had Stingers

By the way Read this

http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.in/2009/01/kargil-conflict-and-pakistan-air-force.html

While the photo-recce missions typically did not involve deliberate border violations, there were a total of 37 ‘technical violations’ (which emanate as a consequence of kinks and bends in the geographical boundaries). Typically, these averaged to a depth of five nautical miles, except on one occasion when the IAF fighters apparently cocked-a-snoot at the PAF and came in 13 miles deep.

Stop crying , the topic is about the Indian jets shot not the result of the war and if you want to bluff about the war , then see the video above first your own officer accepting that India took more casualties , more damage and few jets were shot which is not a victory he says rather a lost .
You can your self imagine how incompetent your army is it used full force , did Arial bombing on a small pockets of NLI soldiers which is itself not more than a Paramilitary force with no backup nor any air support and u guys still got kicked in the rear . If we could use man-pads to bring your 3 assets down then think what our air force could have done , as our air force has a record of air-superiority in almost all the wars against India .

@Windjammer

AFTER this initial loss ; IAF used Chaffs and flares and You could not bring down any more plane

A total of 100 Stingers were fired by Pakistani troops during the entire conflict

Only the First two were successful

@Windjammer

The Mig 27 was Lost because of ENGINE failure

Your stingers took out Mig 21 and a Mi 17 helicopter

Actually after this loss you didn't send any more jets . Your pilots were having nightmares and they were hiding under there beds . Seriously i heard in some video or Tv program that India didn't use there jets to intrude in Pak territory after this . Our air force had air superiority in almost all wars so you could imagine what would had happen if there would have been some dogfights . Most certainly some PAF pilot would have broken MM alams record of shooting down 5 jets in 1 minute .

 

[Moon]

@Manticore @Jango @Horus
Trolls have successfully derailed what was otherwise an informative thread, can a clean up be requested?.

 

[Windjammer]

Taking care of Indian MiGs.

 

[Samrat420]

@Manticore @Jango @Horus
Trolls have successfully derailed what was otherwise an informative thread, can a clean up be requested?.

Very Informative indeed.. Except that the thread OP contains a nice salad of finely grated truths and lies mixed together..

Two Indian Aircrafts were shot down -- True.

Two Indian Fighter Jets were shot down -- False.

I sincerely hope that you understand the difference between Fighter jets and a Mi-17 chopper.

And BTW, did I mention that the lone fighter jet that was shot down, was a Mig-21 which was downed while flying inside Indian airspace without any declaration of hostilities by Pakistan. So, your only achievement in the whole Kargil war, is actually a shameless cowardly action.
Its just sheer irony that Pakistanis who cry over the Atlantique incident are gloating here over shooting down a jet during peacetime, similar to how the Turks were behaving after recently downing a Russian jet in a similar manner.


P.S. I'm certain that 20 days from now, on 17th of June, Mr Windjammer will open another INFORMATIVE thread about what happened on June 17, 1999 at Muntho Dhalo..

 

[Maj.Osmani]

@Windjammer

AFTER this initial loss ; IAF used Chaffs and flares and You could not bring down any more plane

A total of 100 Stingers were fired by Pakistani troops during the entire conflict

Only the First two were successful

@Windjammer

The Mig 27 was Lost because of ENGINE failure

Your stingers took out Mig 21 and a Mi 17 helicopter

After the shooting down of two jets IAF never dared to cross the LOC again till the conflict over. Even Gen Musharaf crosses the border 11 KM inside Indian claimed territory and spend a night with the troops. We have created a buffer zone inside your claimed area so technically you never cross our side but only dare one time to bomb our buffer zone.

Kargil without doubt was one of the most ill planned operation. Only few Generals knew and we face severe losses but still it isn't Indian Victory because we still have two highest peaks in Kargil Area in our control. And those who know about mountain warfare know the one sitting at more height than you has the upper hand.

Not agreed indeed very well planed but Mr. N.S finds his legs become jelly under US pressure and rest you know.