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Officially becoming a secular liberal person

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ur point??
who should give a damn if 2 couples decide to swap without any pressure??
hell i don't care if u have an orgy as long as its consensual:rofl::rofl::rofl:
exactly...your thinking now ...I am showing stupid things that are now ok but were not ok back then
 
This is a little disputed but that is the answer I know still searching for what others say about it...
Bukhari's version is quite clear and unambiguous.
And it is nothing but fascism.

lolz when does shariah say you have to marry before 50..thats your choice! Are you just throwing in rubbish now?
Please learn to read in context. In your zeal to defend, you tend to ignore the context.
The implication of my statement that I may choose not to marry till 50...the point was that WHY should the State/Govt decide that I cant have sex till im 50 ie till I am not married.
 
So @Contrarian I answered your questions with details while all you did was find excuses!
 
exactly...your thinking now ...I am showing stupid things that are now ok but were not ok back then

because time changes dude,,,,people change.
its the human nature and it can't be bound by medevial laws,it will only make u suffer,no one else
 
1. There is nothing wrong with practical secularism. An example is the Mughal rule in India. They were not interested in converting Hindus to Islam. They just wanted to govern and expand their empire. Their civil service and army was multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, multi-religious, and bureaucrats were often posted away from their provinces of origin. Muslims and Islam had a pre-eminent status, but rights of others were protected. Sikhs were an exception, since they were essentially viewed as anti-establishment, anti-imperialists, etc...

In any case, I am talking about imperial policy. This policy was known to the local and low-level functionaries and they made reference to it in their decision making. I am not saying that the decision making was always consistent, but that the state policy ensured that there was no social / religious disturbance.

The cause of Islam was taken up not by Mullahs, but Sufis. The vast majority of conversions took place because of their influence and practice that was humanist in accordance with Islamic and Prophetic principles.

2. @qamar1990, if you read Urdu well enough (I assume you do), try to read Ata-Ul-Haq Qasmi. He has not penned anything particularly cerebral / intellectual - even though he is a genius. But he often makes references to practical secularism as a way forward. This makes sense in abundance.

3. We can not declare Pakistan as a secular state. That would dent Pakistani identity to the extent that there would be no reason to continue as a nation. We already have no particular geographical feature to separate us on geographical basis. Just look at Western and Eastern borders. We are slowly evolving a Pakistani identity, but though it matters much, it does not yet matter enough to sustain itself on its own.

4. Politics of religious parties is just plain dumb. They have very little traction and are so fragmented that nobody much cares for them apart from those who happen to directly benefit from them. The only two parties of note are JI, and JUI-F.

JI works as the party of rightist fringe / extreme. This position would always be taken up by someone and I see value in them being there because they take away space from extreme nationalists, who would be clueless.

JUI-F is more pragmatic, being a reflection of Maulana Fazlur-Rehman's personality. I would not comment on this party apart from noting that they are foremost banner-carriers of Deobandi school.

In my view, at an appropriate time, religion-based parties should be scaled back by banning sectarian parties, allowing JI to be left. They can be forced to reform by throttling Jamiat (their Student chapter). An escape / pressure-release system ought to be in place so that Islamists do not actually turn outright militants for lack of political space.

5. The government ought to be more forceful in dealing with sectarian-cum-religious inspired violence. For that to be effective, we need to finish off role of security apparatus in politics. This point alone could generate a book by itself. Allow me to say that this is the focal point of instability in Pakistan. I could write more but that would generate too much debate.

6. It takes courage, and though I do not agree with you I would nonetheless congratulate you on your intellectual journey. I have an inkling that over time and with more study you would have a much more refined outlook than most on this forum.

@Zarvan , careful brother, you are too quick to judge. These times and this age do not permit hasty judgements. This is not how you take forward the cause of Islam. This is how you scare people away from Islam. Do think how many people were ever brought to Islam by Mullahs? Now do think how many people converted by Sufi influence?

Zarvan, my young friend, allow me to related a true story. Perhaps two decades ago, I happened to watch an interview of Mir Hamza Khan Shinwari, the celebrated Pushto poet on PTV. He said that in his youth he had turned atheist, but he had some respect for a Sufi teacher. Over some years, he was convinced and brought back to Islam. He was perhaps still a free-thinker, but he died a Muslim and thus was saved.

I would like to think that I perhaps had a similar influence over a close friend who had turned agnostic, but slowly came back.

I would like to end with a quote from that incomparable writer, Ibn-e-Insha who wrote in his iconic book - Urdu ki Akhri Kitab - in lesson of geometry that: "There is a type of circle, called circle of Islam. It used to be that people were brought in it, now people are pushed out of it"

This is really a cavil, on an outstanding post, but the treatment of the Sikhs changed dramatically as they grew larger. When they were still a small sect led by Gurus more involved with their spiritual journey, they were actually quite in the good books of the Mughals. The turning point was perhaps - I write this as an amateur of Sikh history - the torture and execution of Guru Arjan Dev. Before, there was mild to benevolent indifference.
 
Bukhari's version is quite clear and unambiguous.
And it is nothing but fascism.
Quran is above Bukhari read post 464 which is from Quran ...various verses relating to your dilemma!

Please learn to read in context. In your zeal to defend, you tend to ignore the context.
The implication of my statement that I may choose not to marry till 50...the point was that WHY should the State/Govt decide that I cant have sex till im 50 ie till I am not married.
Well like there are laws in every part of the world...why must you have sex without marriage? What prohibits you from marrying? not wanting to be responsible?

Well even prostitution can be charged in USA so where are you headed?

because time changes dude,,,,people change.
its the human nature and it can't be bound by medevial laws,it will only make u suffer,no one else
I see Indians suffering when people talk about Islam :agree: not really us!
 
It is simply about perspective about bro?
no its not.

no problem in praying at all but u cannot read the religious book daily and not expect to get a bit hardline and influenced by the teachings(which by the way are excellent apart from some old laws that are a problem)
 
I love wine, women and song, there I said it, I am not a hypocrite, but in my opinion - the indian state is Pakistan's eternal enemy and for justifiable reasons.
 
it may not be written in stone but nevertheless practised widely.............my point would stand even if u are reading it just once daily.

the point was u will be uber religious for life and thats the root cause of problem
Which point be that?
 
This is really a cavil, on an outstanding post, but the treatment of the Sikhs changed dramatically as they grew larger. When they were still a small sect led by Gurus more involved with their spiritual journey, they were actually quite in the good books of the Mughals. The turning point was perhaps - I write this as an amateur of Sikh history - the torture and execution of Guru Arjan Dev. Before, there was mild to benevolent indifference.

u may be right,,yup.
sikhism just started like a cult but clash with mughals led to swelling in ranks and it became a religion
 
I love wine, women and song, there I said it, I am not a hypocrite, but in my opinion - the indian state is Pakistan's eternal enemy and for justifiable reasons.
still wondering why no one beheaded you yet...coz thats the thinking of Indians here on PDF that you cant have your own say if you do you no longer have a head :unsure:
 
ur point??
who should give a damn if 2 couples decide to swap without any pressure??
hell i don't care if u have an orgy as long as its consensual:rofl::rofl::rofl:

I believe that you completely missed the point. Laws generally stem from the moral dictates of a society. The moral dictates in turn stem from the conduct of that society over a period of years and religious prescripts of that society. In every society of the world, laws are linked to religion in one way or another. In most secular states the laws become more liberal as the state attempts to distance itself from any one particular religion. Ironically, this is not practically fully possible. The majority of the people of a democratic nation dictate the course of the laws. The majority of the people of a nation will do so in accordance with their moral prescripts. Let's not forget that moral prescripts are linked to religion as well. You personally may believe that having consensual intercourse with an adult girl in the middle of a busy street in New Delhi for example will harm nobody and is not morally reprehensible. Does the law of India believe so? If not, why not? Likewise there is a ban on the sale of beef in certain Indian states. Why? Beef consumption is not morally or religiously reprehensible or forbidden to a Muslim or a Christian who remain India's significant minorities? Simply because the law of the Indian state is swayed by the moral and religious inclinations of its Hindu majority population.
 
I love wine, women and song, there I said it, I am not a hypocrite, but in my opinion - the indian state is Pakistan's eternal enemy and for justifiable reasons.

thats the problem man,,,,i hope u could see that there is only 1 difference between india and pakistan........................religion.
 
@Contrarian

"I found another verse in the Quran that dealt with apostates. Noble Verse 4:137 "Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way."

Notice that the Quran says those who reject faith and then BELIEVE and again DISBELIEVE. if a Muslim rejects faith and is then killed for doing so how will he live to again BELIEVE and then DISBELIEVE. The atmosphere of this verse is that of free will and freedom of choice to everyone. If Allah wanted he would have said something about the punishment, if there was any, of those who reject Islam after accepting it. but Allah takes this to be clearly a private matter between them and Allah.

If the person was killed as per your understanding how can he believe and disbelieve repeatedly? Wouldnt he have lost his head from the 1st disbelieving he did?
 
I believe that you completely missed the point. Laws generally stem from the moral dictates of a society. The moral dictates in turn stem from the conduct of that society over a period of years and religious prescripts of that society. In every society of the world, laws are linked to religion in one way or another. In most secular states the laws become more liberal as the state attempts to distance itself from any one particular religion. Ironically, this is not practically fully possible. The majority of the people of a democratic nation dictate the course of the laws. The majority of the people of a nation will do so in accordance with their moral prescripts. Let's not forget that moral prescripts are linked to religion as well. You personally may believe that having consensual intercourse with an adult girl in the middle of a busy street in New Delhi for example will harm nobody and is not morally reprehensible. Does the law of India believe so? If not, why not? Likewise there is a ban on the sale of beef in certain Indian states. Why? Beef consumption is not morally or religiously reprehensible or forbidden to a Muslim or a Christian who remain India's significant minorities? Simply because the law of the Indian state is swayed by the moral and religious inclinations of its Hindu majority population.

fair enough,who said india was a perfect state??

its a society in transition at least and thats what counts.
we are debating on the relevance of laws that were made 1400 years ago for ur information
 
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