Obama offers Pakistan enhanced partnership

[Solomon2]

...certain things have to happen in Pakistan to ensure Afghanistan's security. If Pakistan cannot deliver, he warned, the United States may be impelled to use any means at its disposal -

I would guess that the "partnership" will be conditional upon Pakistan giving up terrorism as a strategy and tactic against its putative enemies. Since that isn't going to happen I expect little will come of this.

 

[Spring Onion]

I would guess that the "partnership" will be conditional upon Pakistan giving up terrorism as a strategy and tactic against its putative enemies. Since that isn't going to happen I expect little will come of this.

Sorry buddy if CIA continues to play a double game and harms us, then please dont expect us to go all out for you.

Besides Americans need not to tell us who is our enemy and who is not.

If you have fallen in love with our enemy thats your headach we can not fall in love with it just because you had done so.

 

[Solomon2]

Americans need not to tell us who is our enemy and who is not.

Agnostic Muslim has already pointed out, in a previous post, that he considers pretending external enemies are responsible for Pakistan's ills to be more useful than blaming Pakistanis for them. Doubtless this is politically useful, but it is also a form of psychological illness. So yes, Americans do need to tell Pakistanis who their enemies are, as a voice of sanity.

Logically, you should be able to figure this out yourself. Recall that the Taliban who the PA are now fighting so bravely were considered nonthreatening or "good" only eight months ago, even after the U.S. had been braying into Pakistani ears for years that they were a threat.

Do you think it likely that your pride and secret shame are so strong that they prevent you from seeing this? And that this is something those in authority over you exaggerate as much as possible so you will be distracted by their thefts and failings?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I would guess that the "partnership" will be conditional upon Pakistan giving up terrorism as a strategy and tactic against its putative enemies. Since that isn't going to happen I expect little will come of this.

Nonsense - by that yardstick the US founding fathers were terrorists for fighting against the British, as were people Indians eulogize such as Bhagat Singh.

Terrorism, AFAIK, still remains commonly defined as the deliberate targeting of civilians for XYZ reason, typically political in some form.

The Pakistani state may have supported/encouraged insurgent groups, but it did so with the intention of those groups fighting Indian security forces occupying J&K to encourage India to resolve the dispute which she otherwise had no interest in resolving.

That is a far cry from 'using terrorism as a strategy'.

 

[graphican]

Yes offer Paksitan Nuclear Deal, take full responsibility of Fuel and construct 20 Nuclear Power Plants in Pakistan.. and weave all the debts and life 100% sanctions, with promise not to impose anything for the next 10 years minimum.

Obama regime would even get down on 4 before Pakistan because they need us more than they need anything. we must not waste this opportunity and demand as much as you can.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Agnostic Muslim has already pointed out, in a previous post, that he considers pretending external enemies are responsible for Pakistan's ills to be more useful than blaming Pakistanis for them.

Hogwash - there is no pretense on my side. I believe the Indian State is involved in supporting terrorists in Baluchistan as well as some factions of the Taliban in FATA, based on the circumstantial evidence on display and the statements of the Pakistani political and military leadership and law enforcement arguing that they have intelligence and other evidence implicating the Indians that has been shared with the US.

What I have argued is that, hypothetically speaking, whether India is actually guilty or not has little bearing on getting Pakistani opinion to turn against the terrorist organizations (comprised primarily of Pakistanis, even if supported by the Indians).

Heck, pointing out the Indian role in supporting these terrorist scum in Pakistan should only serve to further cement the opposition to these groups and increase support for the military operations against them.

Doubtless this is politically useful, but it is also a form of psychological illness. So yes, Americans do need to tell Pakistanis who their enemies are, as a voice of sanity.

It is no more a psychological illness than your rant above, and that of many other Americans and Indians, who choose to accuse Pakistan of 'using terrorism as a strategy' without any greater evidence than that publicly shown by Pakistan.

Logically, you should be able to figure this out yourself. Recall that the Taliban who the PA are now fighting so bravely were considered nonthreatening or "good" only eight months ago, even after the U.S. had been braying into Pakistani ears for years that they were a threat.

That is another false claim (on a roll today are we?). The TTP was never seen as 'good Taliban' - that term was largely used to describe the pro-GoP Taliban factions led by Mullah Nazir and Bahadur/Haqqani.

The whole idea behind 'good Taliban/bad Taliban' was to contrast the TTP and its ilk with those like Nazir and Bahadur who were focused on fighting an occupation of Afghanistan rather than carrying out terrorism in Pakistan and trying to overthrow the state.

 

[Solomon2]

there is no pretense on my side. I believe the Indian State is involved in supporting terrorists -

OK, so you're a "believer". What steps have you taken to be sure you aren't another example of the symptom? That your beliefs aren't really rooted in convenient falsehoods perpetrated by others?

no more a psychological illness than your rant above, and that of many other Americans and Indians, who choose to accuse Pakistan of 'using terrorism as a strategy' without any greater evidence than that publicly shown by Pakistan.

I wasn't aware that Pakistan had videoed the a perpetrator of terrorist attacks upon Pakistanis, then captured him and proved that he was an Indian citizen, nor that Pakistan had published communications with such a terrorist to his commanders in India. Please pardon my ignorance.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

OK, so you're a "believer". What steps have you taken to be sure you aren't another example of the symptom? That your beliefs aren't really rooted in convenient falsehoods perpetrated by others?

The same steps Indians and Americans have taken .. where is their evidence? Or are you going on blind faith in 'anonymous sources' and the leadership of your nation?

I wasn't aware that Pakistan had videoed the a perpetrator of terrorist attacks upon Pakistanis, then captured him and proved that he was an Indian citizen, nor that Pakistan had published communications with such a terrorist to his commanders in India. Please pardon my ignorance.

If you are referring to kasab, nothing in the incident implicates the Pakistani State in those actions - its like suggesting that the cross border drug gangs operating in the US, responsible for so much violence and death, implicate the nations that they hail from and operate out of.

 

[Solomon2]

The same steps Indians and Americans have taken .. where is their evidence?

U.S. officials don't suffer from the same trust deficit that Pakistani officials do, as seen from (1) the lack of armed insurrections in the U.S., and (2) the initial willingness of the Swat to look to the Talibs for justice, because the GoP wasn't trusted.
So don't say "the same steps" - you don't know what I've done, which is probably different from what you do anyway. Tell us what YOU have done.

If you are referring to kasab, nothing in the incident implicates the Pakistani State in those actions - its like suggesting that the cross border drug gangs operating in the US, responsible for so much violence and death, implicate the nations that they hail from and operate out of.

They don't? I should point out that there is a good faith effort by both the Mexican and U.S. governments to fight these gangs, and that includes sharing information from law enforcement.

Pakistan, on the other hand, has (at least until recently) clammed up about the Mumbai attacks and suppressed the information from its own police, maintaining that evidence for prosecution must be supplied by non-Pakistani sources. The GoP told many fibs, some of which were easily uncovered by enterprising British journalists who reported that Pakistani police told them they were instructed by their superiors to lie.

Basically, if the GoP wants to convince others that it doesn't maintain "stateless actors" as weapons, the GoP has to do a better job not only convincing foreigners, but their own populace who serve as willing recruits as well.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

U.S. officials don't suffer from the same trust deficit that Pakistani officials do, as seen from (1) the lack of armed insurrections in the U.S., and (2) the initial willingness of the Swat to look to the Talibs for justice, because the GoP wasn't trusted.
So don't say "the same steps" - you don't know what I've done, which is probably different from what you do anyway. Tell us what YOU have done.

You mean lying about WMD's, Iran Contra, supporting brutal and genocidal regimes in Nicaragua, Guatemala, Chile, Argentina, the refusal to condemn Israeli barbarities and illegal actions in violation of the UNSC resolutions, because the US perceives a vested national interest by committing such immoral and criminal acts, etc. continues to allow the US to operate without a trust deficit?

As I said elsewhere, even God Almighty is not as credible as the US government and its 'sources' fro people like you, despite all the evidence and history to the contrary.

They don't? I should point out that there is a good faith effort by both the Mexican and U.S. governments to fight these gangs, and that includes sharing information from law enforcement.

Sure, share some intelligence then ... 700+ AQ leaders and members killed or captured and handed over to the US by Pakistan, more than any other nation.

When has Pakistan refused to act on intelligence provided by the US about AQ?

Pakistan, on the other hand, has (at least until recently) clammed up about the Mumbai attacks and suppressed the information from its own police, maintaining that evidence for prosecution must be supplied by non-Pakistani sources. The GoP told many fibs, some of which were easily uncovered by enterprising British journalists who reported that Pakistani police told them they were instructed by their superiors to lie.

That is your interpretation/distortion - Pakistan's position was that India cooperate with it and share its evidence with Pakistan before Pakistan accept any of the accusations coming out of India amidst the hysteria and shrieking for war from the Indians.

Had the Indians acted with more sense and not vilified Pakistan (government, military officials and media alike) and constantly beaten war drums, Pakistan may have accepted that the citizens were hers without waiting for India to provide evidence, though final confirmation would have still depended upon evidence such as DNA samples etc. to verify identity.

Remember that it was Pakistan that was constantly calling for calm, joint investigations, sharing of information and evidence. The Indians took months before they sent anything over, even then likely forced to do so by the US, while constantly accusing Pakistani institutions and for all intents and purposes calling for war - no sane individual would expect cooperation from the country being targeted (Pakistan in this case) in such a hostile environment.

Basically, if the GoP wants to convince others that it doesn't maintain "stateless actors" as weapons, the GoP has to do a better job not only convincing foreigners, but their own populace who serve as willing recruits as well.

Can't convince people who believe anything without evidence - sort of like its pretty useless arguing with racists. People such as yourself have made up their mind, without any evidence whatsoever, and the only way you back up your point is by waving a 'The West is superior to you Pakistanis and the West don't need no stinkin evidence to back up its accusations' stick.

 

[BATMAN]

US troops in Afghanistan are very friendly to TTP and vice versa.
TTP only act in Pakistan and only against Pakistani interest and inline with Indo-US interest.
If US is serious about TTP than what is the point in arming and financing the same menace.
Further more all training facilities of TTP are being run by indian army inside Afghanistan. Why not dismantel those facilities.
There is lot more of terror apparatus comming in to Pakistan from Afghansitan, therefore cutting the supply and finace lines of TTP will help more.
Sending Pakistani troops on sucide mission while they don't even have night vision googles or transport helicopters is shere madness.
US military assistance is just a trap to consume Pakistan soldiers against a highly paid, motivated and generously equiped army.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

the most preposterous and irskome thing I read about this was this:

The offer extended to Pakistan features enhanced development and trade assistance, improved intelligence collaboration, more secure and upgraded military equipment pipelines, more public praise and less public criticism of Pakistan, and an initiative to building greater regional cooperation among Pakistan, India and Afghanistan, the report said. — DawnNews

so great, they are focused on our PR now, and they will try to use this as some kind of "bone" to throw at us


The most important thing is to focus on economy and some medium level defence cooperation -such as counter-insurgency and spying equipment; and also more border surveillance gear. Americans would be helpful if they would start giving a damn about our concerns, such as indian involvement in funding and arming anti-Pakistan criminal "mohareb" elements .

We must make our position very clear. We will not sacrifice "PR approach" for supporting a surge in troops. I personally am very against a surge in troops in Afghanistan. It wont bring any positive changes; it will only fuel more resentment

Hopefully with Turkey in charge of NATO operations, some wise decisions will be made and they can focus on lifting Afghanistan out of economic and social crisis. They should focus on people-to-people contact, rather than pointing weapons at everybody and acting like occupiers.

Pakistanis are not the only ones who never learn from history. It seems that international forces have also forgotten that if Afghans perceive foreign presence in their country as "occupation" ---then the war is not winnable by military means.

UK defence minister and even Gordon Brown, Karzai, Milliband are seeming to signal toward withdrawal sooner than later. Italians and Canadians are against troop surge.

 

[Solomon2]

AM, you could have just admitted that you haven't done anything of your own initiative. Why do you have to lash out at me personally?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Pakistan, on the other hand, has (at least until recently) clammed up about the Mumbai attacks and suppressed the information from its own police

proof?

maintaining that evidence for prosecution must be supplied by non-Pakistani sources.

Our courts are competent, and free. We don't need foreign advice on how to run our investigations. Several suspects are already on trial

The indians were presenting us pictures of toothpaste containers, Yamaha engines, and shaving cream "made in Pakistan" as evidence. They sent us printed transcripts of the telephone record between terrorist and handler (but not the actual tapes).

and moreover, they were sending us dossier(s) in Marathi language which we dont even bloody understand!

The GoP told many fibs, some of which were easily uncovered by enterprising British journalists who reported that Pakistani police told them they were instructed by their superiors to lie.

i am no advocate for incumbent GoP. But I will need you to post proof of this claim.

Basically, if the GoP wants to convince others that it doesn't maintain "stateless actors" as weapons, the GoP has to do a better job not only convincing foreigners, but their own populace who serve as willing recruits as well.

was Timothy McVeigh or the unabomber a state actor? What about the rogue CIA agents (some of whom have been convicted of criminal abduction and illegal rendition) in Italy -- were they state actors?

tell me about Deputy Marshal Vincent Bustamante. Was he representing U.S. Govt. when he faced federal charges of stealing weapons and other government property, and was later found dead in Mexico following the wave of drug-cartel violence?


i seek your clarification, sir.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM, you could have just admitted that you haven't done anything of your own initiative.

Oh but you conveniently ignored the part where I pointed out that Pakistan was the entire time taking the initiative to calm things down, call for cooperation and a joint investigation.

The obstructionists and warmongers post Mumbai were the Indians.

Why do you have to lash out at me personally?

If you are referring to this comment,

"People such as yourself have made up their mind, without any evidence whatsoever, and the only way you back up your point is by waving a 'The West is superior to you Pakistanis and the West don't need no stinkin evidence to back up its accusations' stick."

That isn't 'lashing out at you', I am more or less paraphrasing your position.

If you do actually have any evidence substantiating the allegations leveled at Pakistan, would love to see them.