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Obama offers Pakistan enhanced partnership

And we continue to return to the central question that mirrors yours when confronted with the argument that the Indians are supporting terrorists in Baluchistan and FATA, 'where is the evidence'?
I like that! Yes, blaming the Indians is a "mirror question", meant to deflect light away from Pakistani transgressions. As of now, that argument is ephemeral and without substance.

Since such an empty argument is advanced, it's natural to ask whether some Pakistanis simply NEED to believe in such things because it salves their psyche.
 
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I like that! Yes, blaming the Indians is a "mirror question", meant to deflect light away from Pakistani transgressions. As of now, that argument is ephemeral and without substance.

Since such an empty argument is advanced, it's natural to ask whether some Pakistanis simply NEED to believe in such things because it salves their psyche.

Ephemeral? If anything, we are becoming more vociferous about it now. Even Gen. Mcchrystal in Afghanistan, along with Afghan politicians and advisors to govt. are asserting that india is using Afghanistan as a base to attack Pakistan indirectly and directly. I hope things get to a point where we threaten to withdraw support unless action is taken against these so-called "consullates".....too bad our spineless leaders are busy embroiled in other bullsh*t.


We have an advantage of language, people on the ground, and knowledge of the areas and geography. We must not sit idly and allow the neighbour country to get away with these things.

We must jointly take decisive and fitting action. Inshallah.
 
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I'm sure that since you are not familiar with the investigation, you shouldnt label speculation as "being sure"
You are right on this point.

I personally believe that most Afghans perceive NATO troops in Afghanistan as "invaders" .....therefore, we shouldnt be obliged to make fighting pro-Pakistani anti-American forces as first priority..rest assured, Pakistan should not be a place where militants should come in from Afghanistan and settle. We dont want that..
That is what Obama wants. Mushy made the same argument to Bush and while "agreements" were made between the GoP and the tribes, they were all empty: the foreign militants stay until the PA kills them or kicks them out.

But as long as western forces are in Afghanistan, I see no end in sight to the violence. It is NO DIFFERENT than when the soviets were in Afghanistan. They were also perceived as invaders, and thusly they were driven out.
I understand that Iraqis now refer to American troops as "guests".

It is high time for americans to understand our concerns from purely Pakistani lens. Learn about our sacrifices and what we have went through in order to stop the scourge of terrorism facing Central/South Asian region and beyond.

I think the GoP needs to make more efforts here. It's your country, after all....

You needed us in 1980s, and you need us now. So cooperate and collaborate with us -
As opposed to McCain, Obama promised during his campaign to act unilaterally in Pakistan if necessary. He reaffirmed that in his speech earlier this week. I don't like that, but that is the situation.

I care for the American people and consider myself a good friend of America. It saddens me to see how the public has been fed lies for so many years.
"Lie" is pretty strong, are you sure it's not merely ignorance?

Had 100% of the focus been on Afghanistan from 2001 onwards (rather than diverting resources to the Iraq BLUNDER), things would have been MUCH different now.
In what way? I'm not sure that the Bush Administration ever believed total victory if Afghanistan was desirable or even possible without slowly building Afghan institutions. And the U.S. would not have kept fifty thousand troops in Afghanistan merely to serve on border patrol.

did you see the October 2009 issue of Newsweek Magazine (Inside the Mind of the Taleban)?
No, I made a conscious decision to read books rather than magazines some time ago so I can develop a different perspective on current events.
 
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Even Gen. Mcchrystal in Afghanistan, along with Afghan politicians and advisors to govt. are asserting that india is using Afghanistan as a base to attack Pakistan indirectly and directly.
Someone made such a claim yesterday, but the article linked to said only that McChrystal discussed the economic aid India offered the Afghans. Stretching that statement to "asserting that india is using Afghanistan as a base to attack Pakistan indirectly and directly" is quite a stretch. Can you provide something better?

We have an advantage of language, people on the ground, and knowledge of the areas and geography. We must not sit idly and allow the neighbour country to get away with these things. We must jointly take decisive and fitting action.
Hey! I long ago made the argument for joint command of the terror battle, with the command going to the combatant who can mount the most power in the battle. Today, that would be Pakistan. The only problem is that the U.S. and Pak can't agree on their common interests in the war.
 
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I like that! Yes, blaming the Indians is a "mirror question", meant to deflect light away from Pakistani transgressions. As of now, that argument is ephemeral and without substance.

Since such an empty argument is advanced, it's natural to ask whether some Pakistanis simply NEED to believe in such things because it salves their psyche.

Or to re-phrase, "Yes, blaming the Pakistanis is a "mirror question", meant to deflect light away from American/Indian transgressions. As of now, that argument is ephemeral and without substance.

Since such an empty argument is advanced, it's natural to ask whether some Americans/Indians simply NEED to believe in such things because it salves their psyche.

Again, where is your evidence?

Why should unsubstantiated Western or Indian assertions be taken at face value, given the lack of credibility on the part of the West and India (for reasons already mentioned), when you refuse to do the same with Pakistani assertions that you claim are unsubstantiated?
 
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That is what Obama wants. Mushy made the same argument to Bush and while "agreements" were made between the GoP and the tribes, they were all empty: the foreign militants stay until the PA kills them or kicks them out.

Kindly refer to him as General (retired) Musharraf, or at least Musharraf. Show some respect.

I don't believe those foreign militants should be roaming in our tribal areas (exploiting the kindness and hospitality of Pashtun honor-based culture). Not unless they have Visa for Pakistan.

Problem is that many of them are remnants from 1980s. The entire world forgot about these fighters, and no attention was given to them. This was a huge mistake which we are paying for.

I understand that Iraqis now refer to American troops as "guests".

I don't know why I find that uber hard to believe, but so be it. We're discussing Afghanistan, and I'm sure the average Afghan doesnt want foreign troops in their country; nor do they want foreign militants either.

I think the GoP needs to make more efforts here. It's your country, after all....

too many political distractions, tug-of-wars and dramas unfolding at this time.

Army is effectively the only institution having good results in war against terrorism. Just the other day we recovered arms cache not far from Kurram Agency - which is where I hail from.

As opposed to McCain, Obama promised during his campaign to act unilaterally in Pakistan if necessary. He reaffirmed that in his speech earlier this week. I don't like that, but that is the situation.

if you're going to call us a "Major Non-NATO Ally" then you should heed to our concerns.

You must do that.


"Lie" is pretty strong, are you sure it's not merely ignorance?

well, on certain things I think it's lies....ignorance is also to blame. This is a very complicated conflict. It isn't just black and white. It requires strong knowledge of the geographical, geo-political, ethnical, and other history of the region.

What really irritates me is when they say that taleban could take over Pakistan or take over the nukes. These are just scenarios from Tom Clancy novel. No relevance or credibility.

In what way? I'm not sure that the Bush Administration ever believed total victory if Afghanistan was desirable or even possible without slowly building Afghan institutions
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Iraq was a costly distraction, and american tax payers are facing the brunt. Like i said, i sympathize with the Americans. They are also facing difficult times, with unemployment still at 12%

It's sad to see another Vietnam/Soviet type situation that they are/will face.


And the U.S. would not have kept fifty thousand troops in Afghanistan merely to serve on border patrol.

that's true. But more troops on the porous and long border would make huge difference.

I think U.S. should also sell us (armed) drone technology. It would show that U.S. trusts us, and we could show U.S. that based on credible ground intelligence we will act wherever the enemy hides.

I am from FATA. FATA areas are a paradise for guerilla fighters, due to the vast hills, valleys, and rugged mountains.

With a very cold winter approaching, this is the time to really go after them, before they "hibernate" till spring.


No, I made a conscious decision to read books rather than magazines some time ago so I can develop a different perspective on current events.

Fair enough. But you should read the article when you get a chance. Go to the American University library and walk on the 1st floor and look on the left. All the magazines are there, you can read them for free.
 
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Go to the American University library and walk on the 1st floor and look on the left. All the magazines are there, you can read them for free.
Cute, I used to hang out there in high school a lot, doing research in marine biology - I won an award for that. Gee, that takes me back...the periodicals were on the left, but I think they were down one level from the entrance.

For you, I'll read the Newsweek article. (I gave up reading that mag back in fourth grade.)
 
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To try and get this back on topic, let me cross-post soemthing from the NYT that I put in another thread:

"The Obama administration has tried to offset Pakistani concerns with a package of long-term security guarantees, trade benefits, upgraded military equipment and greater regional cooperation with India. But a Pakistani official said details had not been made public because the offer had yet to be accepted.

The Pakistani military sees India as the biggest threat in the region and is frustrated that the United States does not seem to acknowledge that. The disconnect has been a major irritant in relations, particularly as Indian influence in Afghanistan grows.

“This is where Pakistan’s trust of the U.S. could very dramatically increase,” Mr. Rashid said, “if it became known the Americans were trying to get the Indians to become more flexible.""


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/03/world/asia/03pstan.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

It is largely what we know already - still no details on what the 'upgraded military equipment' and 'security guarantees' (something Obama referenced in his speech as well) mean.
 
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By Sami Abraham

WASHINGTON: US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has admitted that there were differences between Pakistan and the United States over the use of force against some of what she called pro-al-Qaeda militant organisations in the Pak-Afghan border areas known as Fata.

In a testimony along with US Secretary of Defence Robert Gates and Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Mullen, before the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee here on Thursday, Secretary Clinton said, “We are making the argument before our Pakistani civil and military counterparts that success in Swat and Waziristan is not enough to achieve the objective of completely destroying al-Qaeda, “But,” she added, “the argument will take some time as Pakistan is a sovereign country, which believes that India is their real enemy.”

She was responding to a question if Pakistanis believed that al-Qaeda was useful in stopping the Indian influence in Afghanistan and if US was able to persuade Pakistanis to change this approach.

Secretary Clinton said that there was a great deal of mistrust between the United States and Pakistan because Pakistanis believed that the Americans betrayed and abandoned them in Eighties after Washington walked away when Russians withdrew from the region.

Secretary Clinton said that there was an opportunity for those who were willing to renounce al-Qaeda because it was her understanding that there were a lot of people within the Taliban who did not share the ideology of al-Qaeda.

In response to a question, she also hinted that in future the US might have to deal with some of the hardliner Taliban who might not be in agreement with the United States on a number of issues but willing to act peacefully within the law. Secretary Clinton said that the mission in Afghanistan was never provided with adequate resources because the US mission was shifted to Iraq and Afghan President Karzai had told her that he was confused about this war because the Bush Administration officials had talked about not killing Osama bin Laden and Mulla Omar.

US Secretary of Defence Robert Gates said that situation in Afghanistan was more dangerous than it was 18 months ago because now Pakistani Taliban were deeply involved with al-Qaeda and posing a clear threat to the Pakistani government.

Secretary Gates said that al-Qaeda was connected with Lashkar-e-Taiba and providing assistance to attack Indians to create instability in the region. He said, “All the terrorists who have been arrested from different parts of the world lead us to the border area of Pakistan and Afghanistan.” He said that July 2011 would be the beginning of the process of withdrawal of the US but cautioned that it would be gradual and conditions based. He said the US was trying to give a message to the friends, allies and Afghan people that President Obama was committed only to success and the US would not repeat the mistakes of the past by abandoning the region but, he added, at the same time the US military would not be there forever to protect the Afghan people.” Afghans should get ready to take the responsibility to protect themselves,” he added.

Admiral Mullen, on this occasion said that the United States needed to have a sustained partnership approach with Pakistan despite the complexities. He said a stable Afghanistan was also important for future of Pakistan.

He said, however, no amount of troops or no amount of resources would be able to win the war against terrorists if it was not coupled with the better governance.
 
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they should sell us drones......

kill 2 birds with one stone. Help us increase our counter-insurgency capability, while we also show that we are damn serious about fighting the terrorists....we have lost sons and daughters of this soil --civilian & military, and so much private and public property has been damaged by the terrorists....so obviously we are striking them harder, anybody who is posing risk or defiance against Pakistan.


they (americans) keep saying do more do more then they talk about trust deficits and other things....


i think they are quite confused....hopefully things would get clear for them; and they will also heed to our concerns and requirements
 
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