Nuclear Triad In Place: India Gets K-4 SLBM Out Of The Closet

[Ind4Ever]

Still lot of work has to be done and India have just reached one milestone before the triad is complete. Arihant is just the technology demonstrator and many critics says its underpower and the size compared to other nuclear submarine carrying SLBM of the nuclear power is small to carry more missile.

Lots of tests already been carried out so far!!!

 

[amardeep mishra]

We make our own jets, Tanks and Drones. Research $'s and PhD's are a means to achieve an end, your problem is you keep counting the means and take that as achievement, we focus on the results, and they speak for themselves.

Yeah somehow these projects happen miraculously by the grace of someone sitting in deep space? Right? No research, no phd, it just happens in Pakistan?
My dear friend what u said is a very mis informed thing, can you specifically point out Pakistani contribution these projects in terms of intellectual property right creation?

 

[Ind4Ever]

@kurup
Believe me,the topic of warhead specifications is so secret that any academic exercise to determine the payload can at best be described as speculative! Not even folks working on K4 would know the exact specification of the warheads it'll carry. Based on speculative analysis,and some of the published papers,one can say that K-4 has been designed with single warhead in mind and the range is 3500-4000kms.
K-5 will be india's true SLBM with 3 MIRVs and 6000+ kms range,now how will they achieve this?-it is an elaborate process involving optimization at various fronts ranging from
1)casing(composites instead of maraging steel)
2)newer high energy materials with higher specific impulse,
3)miniaturization of MEMS based sensors and actuators,
4)light weight reaction control systems etc.
with#1 and #2 contribute a lot in weight reduction of missiles,but that is not to say that #3 and #4 are insignificant.
One significant challenge with #1 is that with increased diameter strategic missiles the stresses acting radially on the casing is very high due to chamber pressure hence a thick walled maraging steel structure is prefered,but that increases weight significantly,hence the choice of an appropriate composite structure that can withstand high chamber pressure of first stage in our A5 system was a challenge that they painstakingly overcame.This will be implemented in newer missiles and will be called A6.
A6 is basically a highly optimized A5 with a host of improvements that render it a new missile altogether!
Another challenge with #2 is the type of solid fuel,as you know the shelf life of any missile is directly contingent upon the physical properties of the solid fuel.With canisterized A5 and A6 coming into picture,newer HTPB+AP compositions must be found that can hold the structural integrity for the required shelf life.
Now one would ask,why is structural integrity of solid propellants so important?Well the answer lies in the uniform burning or so called "regression rate-r" of solid propellants inside the missile.Any deformation in the surface would lead to significant increase in rate of burning and hence the chamber pressure.With age,the solid propellants are subjected to bending loads inside the missile due to gravity- this might develop minor cracks and crack provides extra surface area for burning- this in turn creates irregular regression rate and increased chamber pressure than desired.If allowed to go unabated,the chamber pressure might increase beyond the mechanical tolerances of the missile casing- especially during the initial phases when the thrust builds up very rapidly.
I'd also like to mention that in this regard russians are way ahead of us!
These few topics that i touched upon are very essential from the design aspect of a SLBM as well. If you are interested in detailed technical discussion,feel free to contact me!
Thanks in advance
Amardeep Mishra

bhai greater technical details are not required? Share what is being published

I can not answer like this,kindly pose specific questions my dear friend.It'll make my job easier,for instance that guy asked questions related to K-4 and warheads,i expect you to frame specific questions that i can deal with in some depth!
Thanks

No depth h technical elaboration needed

Mean while land based K4 and K5 will be very interesting. Compact and powerful. Easy to carry around. If so if we get land variant of K series will there be any major changes ?.

And why we opted of for smoky first stage with cone nozzle?

If possible explain this with lesser details.

Tejas and Arjun are both in production.


Do you know anything about what's happening recently in India's missile programs?

Agni 5 tested fired/canistered and entered production in like 4 years.

K15 SLBM has had 10+ flawless tests and will be test fired out of SSBN INS Arihant in sea trials.

K4 had I think 1 or 2 flawless tests. Yes, it'll go just as fine.

This isnt the days of early Prithvis or early Agni series.

LOL exactly. These guys are stuck in those days where our prithvis and agni 1&2 fails while testing. While they happily imported missiles from North Korea (which had accuracy of 100_1000 kms) and from China and claimed superiority over India. Funny times the way these guys used to dance with YouTube videos

Today we are second to none

 

[Echo_419]

Well Indians had to come up with something after Pakistan disclosed it's second strike capability. Talk of obsession

Keyboard diya hai toh yeh MATLAB nahi much bhi type karoge

 

[kurup]

@kurup
Believe me,the topic of warhead specifications is so secret that any academic exercise to determine the payload can at best be described as speculative! Not even folks working on K4 would know the exact specification of the warheads it'll carry. Based on speculative analysis,and some of the published papers,one can say that K-4 has been designed with single warhead in mind and the range is 3500-4000kms.
K-5 will be india's true SLBM with 3 MIRVs and 6000+ kms range,now how will they achieve this?-it is an elaborate process involving optimization at various fronts ranging from
1)casing(composites instead of maraging steel)
2)newer high energy materials with higher specific impulse,
3)miniaturization of MEMS based sensors and actuators,
4)light weight reaction control systems etc.
with#1 and #2 contribute a lot in weight reduction of missiles,but that is not to say that #3 and #4 are insignificant.
One significant challenge with #1 is that with increased diameter strategic missiles the stresses acting radially on the casing is very high due to chamber pressure hence a thick walled maraging steel structure is prefered,but that increases weight significantly,hence the choice of an appropriate composite structure that can withstand high chamber pressure of first stage in our A5 system was a challenge that they painstakingly overcame.This will be implemented in newer missiles and will be called A6.
A6 is basically a highly optimized A5 with a host of improvements that render it a new missile altogether!
Another challenge with #2 is the type of solid fuel,as you know the shelf life of any missile is directly contingent upon the physical properties of the solid fuel.With canisterized A5 and A6 coming into picture,newer HTPB+AP compositions must be found that can hold the structural integrity for the required shelf life.
Now one would ask,why is structural integrity of solid propellants so important?Well the answer lies in the uniform burning or so called "regression rate-r" of solid propellants inside the missile.Any deformation in the surface would lead to significant increase in rate of burning and hence the chamber pressure.With age,the solid propellants are subjected to bending loads inside the missile due to gravity- this might develop minor cracks and crack provides extra surface area for burning- this in turn creates irregular regression rate and increased chamber pressure than desired.If allowed to go unabated,the chamber pressure might increase beyond the mechanical tolerances of the missile casing- especially during the initial phases when the thrust builds up very rapidly.
I'd also like to mention that in this regard russians are way ahead of us!
These few topics that i touched upon are very essential from the design aspect of a SLBM as well. If you are interested in detailed technical discussion,feel free to contact me!
Thanks in advance
Amardeep Mishra

What will be the actual range of A6 ?? Has the development started or is it still pending govt. approval ??

Some earlier reports quoted the range as 6000+km while one DRDO presentation showed it as 5000km .

Also few months back there was a report that DRDO has asked for extension of range to 10000km and govt is yet to give approval .

Does K-5 has 3 or 4 MIRV ??

Stunning info about Indian's missile projects by Dr.Saraswat

Again you read my comment terribly wrong,read it again,i repeat russians are WAY WAY better than either india or china in metallurgy and that also means their solid fuel!
Just to highlight their superiority,i will quote the example of brahmos.As you clearly know ,a high Isp solid fuel is used in brahmos booster to boost it to a certain height and velocity before the main liquid ramjet kicks in.Now this "russian solid booster" is so good that it can sustain a hell lot of abuses like jerks,smashing on the ground,and yet remain structurally tight without developing even a single crack- that too for itz entire shelf life!
Their solid propellant is rubbery like any other yet it can sustain all those mechanical shocks without loosing structural integrity.And when you burn a small piece of this russian solid propellant it burns with a bright and hot flame!

AFAIK , we build those boosters in-house with TOT from Russia .

So , Have been able to absorb this tech and re-apply somewhere else ??

 

[amardeep mishra]

AFAIK , we build those boosters in-house with TOT from Russia .

Sorry but as I always maintain,"TOT" is a misnomer and a very loose term, Russians haven't yet transferred the know how of their exotic propellant grain in brahmos booster.Booster comes from Russia just like the liquid ramjet. There is a talk going on to buy the "technology" of liquid ramjet at massive 2000crore INR($330mn). Once bought,we can then tweak it to increase the range of brahmos to over 600kms thereby making it even more deadly!
Nothing comes for free my dear friend, you pay handsome amount to buy a particular "IP"!
Back in 90s when we were initially buying brahmos off the shelf,Russians even propsed selling of liquid ramjet technology at just 200cr INR, but thanks to usual Indian short sightedness, our SA at that time rejected the proposal.and now we'll be buying the same technology at x10 the rate!
Thankfully we have a scramjet engine propram that is maturing up and new hypersonic wind tunnel is also being set up for that very same purpose.
In sheer research Pakistan still is many decades behind India

What will be the actual range of A6 ?? Has the development started or is it still pending govt. approval ??

A6 is suppose to be a ~6000+km missile with 3 MIRVs,however with single warhead it might very well do 10000kms

 

[ni8mare]

We make our own jets, Tanks and Drones

seriously you people even don't have a basic steel industry.......and you talk about making your own jets, Tanks and Drones

 

[SrNair]

Sorry but as I always maintain,"TOT" is a misnomer and a very loose term, Russians haven't yet transferred the know how of their exotic propellant grain in brahmos booster.Booster comes from Russia just like the liquid ramjet. There is a talk going on to buy the "technology" of liquid ramjet at massive 2000crore INR($330mn). Once bought,we can then tweak it to increase the range of brahmos to over 600kms thereby making it even more deadly!
Nothing comes for free my dear friend, you pay handsome amount to buy a particular "IP"!
Back in 90s when we were initially buying brahmos off the shelf,Russians even propsed selling of liquid ramjet technology at just 200cr INR, but thanks to usual Indian short sightedness, our SA at that time rejected the proposal.and now we'll be buying the same technology at x10 the rate!
Thankfully we have a scramjet engine propram that is maturing up and new hypersonic wind tunnel is also being set up for that very same purpose.
In sheer research Pakistan still is many decades behind India



A6 is suppose to be a ~6000+km missile with 3 MIRVs,however with single warhead it might very well do 10000kms

Bro ,I think you shouldnt have explain the all strategic details and our relation with Russians.It would be a lots more better if talks touched with mere technical aspects.

 

[kurup]

A6 is suppose to be a ~6000+km missile with 3 MIRVs,however with single warhead it might very well do 10000kms

In the image I provided above , SLBM with a payload of 2000kg is able to carry 4 MIRV .

So with a payload of 3000kg shouldn't A6 be capable of carrying 6 MIRVs ??

 

[amardeep mishra]

In the image I provided above , SLBM with a payload of 2000kg is able to carry 4 MIRV .

So with a payload of 3000kg shouldn't A6 be capable of carrying 6 MIRVs ??

Yes yes you're right,A6 would be able to eventually carry 6 MIRVs.Thanks for pointing it out

 

[Thorough Pro]

I will never be a "buddy" to any sworn enemy, so spare that.
On topic, which jet? JF-17 is a joint venture, if you don't know the meaning, google it.

Which jet buddy??
American F-16 or Chinese JF-17??

Intellectual property right creation......LOL

Putting together some random terms learned over the internet does not make that a valid argument. comeup with something original that makes sense.

Yeah somehow these projects happen miraculously by the grace of someone sitting in deep space? Right? No research, no phd, it just happens in Pakistan?
My dear friend what u said is a very mis informed thing, can you specifically point out Pakistani contribution these projects in terms of intellectual property right creation?

now I know why Jejas can't fly, please tell your DRDO jets are made from Aluminum not steel

seriously you people even don't have a basic steel industry.......and you talk about making your own jets, Tanks and Drones

 

[thestringshredder]

I will never be a "buddy" to any sworn enemy, so spare that.
On topic, which jet? JF-17 is a joint venture, if you don't know the meaning, google it.

there is a huge difference between making your own jets and assembling jets made in another country.
And what's the point of assembling those jets and boasting about them when its chief designer admits that it cannot compete and has a limited potential export market. "The chief designer of the Xiaolong, Yang Wei, said that the aircraft cannot compete with other aircraft on the market"
Link - China forges ahead in fighter jet export market｜WCT
and..
"The JF-17 is an obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for the Pakistan market, which values numbers over actual combat effectiveness. "
Link - IN FOCUS: China awaits fighter export breakthrough

So basically its a dud..

And saying Pakistan developed the JF 17 is like saying India is developing the PAK-FA and UK the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). Just like India / UK, Pakistan is a customer with a local production line.

 

[ni8mare]

Well Indians had to come up with something after Pakistan disclosed it's second strike capability. Talk of obsession

second strike capability and pakistan ......you people neither even have slbm/slcm nor you have platform for slbm/slcm
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
K4 has been tested and validated atleast 3/4 times flawlessly .....and that it exist unlike some fairly tales of second strike capability who come up missile without any testing
.............................................................................................................................................................................................
Do you Pakistanis will come up with something after India disclosed it's second AESA destroyer...........................

or still getting hard on at the steel cutting ceremony of 500 tonne fishing patrol boat

Talk of obsession ​

now I know why Jejas can't fly, please tell your DRDO jets are made from Aluminum not steel

what an 1d10t..............

 

[amardeep mishra]

now I know why Jejas can't fly, please tell your DRDO jets are made from Aluminum not steel

Well I'm not from structures,

now I know why Jejas can't fly, please tell your DRDO jets are made from Aluminum not steel

My dear friend ever wondered what it takes to "design" and develop a new aircraft?One that could be piloted?Let me remind you of some of the challenges some countries who do genuine research(UNLIKE PAKISTAN) face-
1)since i deal with stability and control,i would put it at number #1,but these can be put in any random order.The design has to be first validated in a wind tunnel.Now by validating i mean ,finding the dependence of Cm(coefficient of moment) on various parameters like alpha,M,Tc and q'(in general,however for low mach number it mainly depends on alpha).Then analysing the stability around fixed set of equilibrium points(static stability).
Once this phase is done,then you have to write your control laws .

2)Propulsion- This is a major headache when you get down to design a high performance gas turbine,because believe me dealing with combustion instability and a host of other problems inst easy,and when i say "not easy" i mean every bit of it.Even china with so much resource hasnt been very successful with their engine either.The reason why kaveri couldnt deliver the required 83-85kN of thrust has something to do with combustion instability issues.During an instability the flame frequency matches with that of the natural frequency of the duct(combustion chamber) thereby creating a resonance.This induces cycles of compression and tensile stresses on longitudinal direction of the engine.Now imagine an engine rotating at lets say 50000RPM and undergoing such cycles- it simply wont last long.
Now what is the solution?- well the solution might lie in the optimum placement of igniters and the geometry of the duct and also in disturbing the frequency of swirling flame inside the duct.

3)Composites-
That is one of the areas where india have had huge success.They developed composites for airframe in the country(designed it in house,filed patents) and infact 45% of LCA is made up of composites! I'd like to cast some light on the physical properties of these composite structures- they are anisotropic in nature- that means their physical properties depend on the direction of applied stress.Hence laying is very important!
It would surprise you that the laying software algorithm developed by NAL is now being used by aerospace majors like boing and airbus!- now that is technology creation my dear friend-on a similar note what did pakistan create in terms of new intellectual property right?
This pdf down here would give you a brief overlook of what has been "designed" in the country by DRDO(can you similarly post research in metallurgy and composites from your country that are under mass production or soon to be mass produced)?
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2010/feb10.pdf
Note this is 5 years old research.Also note that you can find the details of the patent and a plethora of ongoing metallurgical research going on in india by academia and industry if you look hard in internet.

KINDLY SEE- it is not wise to write anything based on your blind nationalistic feelings without taking your "arch enemy's" body of painstaking research that dwarf your's by a very very very huge margin!
Next time kindly do your good homework before writing anything
Oh and btw,what is your academic qualification again?

 

[Thorough Pro]

As I mentioned earlier, it's the results that count not the hours and dollars you put in to efforts, while you guys keep celebrating your inputs and think because you have out in 30 years and millions of dollars in the effort, it has to be better than us accomplishing something in a lesser time with marginal amount. In india it may be considered as "lacking" of some type, in the sane world its called efficiency and smartness.

Well I'm not from structures,


My dear friend ever wondered what it takes to "design" and develop a new aircraft?One that could be piloted?Let me remind you of some of the challenges some countries who do genuine research(UNLIKE PAKISTAN) face-
1)since i deal with stability and control,i would put it at number #1,but these can be put in any random order.The design has to be first validated in a wind tunnel.Now by validating i mean ,finding the dependence of Cm(coefficient of moment) on various parameters like alpha,M,Tc and q'(in general,however for low mach number it mainly depends on alpha).Then analysing the stability around fixed set of equilibrium points(static stability).
Once this phase is done,then you have to write your control laws .

2)Propulsion- This is a major headache when you get down to design a high performance gas turbine,because believe me dealing with combustion instability and a host of other problems inst easy,and when i say "not easy" i mean every bit of it.Even china with so much resource hasnt been very successful with their engine either.The reason why kaveri couldnt deliver the required 83-85kN of thrust has something to do with combustion instability issues.During an instability the flame frequency matches with that of the natural frequency of the duct(combustion chamber) thereby creating a resonance.This induces cycles of compression and tensile stresses on longitudinal direction of the engine.Now imagine an engine rotating at lets say 50000RPM and undergoing such cycles- it simply wont last long.
Now what is the solution?- well the solution might lie in the optimum placement of igniters and the geometry of the duct and also in disturbing the frequency of swirling flame inside the duct.

3)Composites-
That is one of the areas where india have had huge success.They developed composites for airframe in the country(designed it in house,filed patents) and infact 45% of LCA is made up of composites! I'd like to cast some light on the physical properties of these composite structures- they are anisotropic in nature- that means their physical properties depend on the direction of applied stress.Hence laying is very important!
It would surprise you that the laying software algorithm developed by NAL is now being used by aerospace majors like boing and airbus!- now that is technology creation my dear friend-on a similar note what did pakistan create in terms of new intellectual property right?
This pdf down here would give you a brief overlook of what has been "designed" in the country by DRDO(can you similarly post research in metallurgy and composites from your country that are under mass production or soon to be mass produced)?
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2010/feb10.pdf
Note this is 5 years old research.Also note that you can find the details of the patent and a plethora of ongoing metallurgical research going on in india by academia and industry if you look hard in internet.

KINDLY SEE- it is not wise to write anything based on your blind nationalistic feelings without taking your "arch enemy's" body of painstaking research that dwarf your's by a very very very huge margin!
Next time kindly do your good homework before writing anything
Oh and btw,what is your academic qualification again?