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@Peaceful Civilian @Khafee @aliyusuf @Mentee seriously dudes? You think @MastanKhan is teaching us something useful? Let's just take his justification for removing the cannon on JF-17 because of the 'shoot and scoot' doctrine

https://defence.pk/threads/removal-of-autocannon-gsh-23-30-from-the-jf-17.472923/#post-9114898

Now here is what US Navy manuals are teaching pilots on BVR engagements

http://navyflightmanuals.tpub.com/P-1210/Bvr-Engagement-71.htm

BVR Engagement

On your final 1V1 neutral flight, you will be introduced to a Beyond Visual Range set. This will expose you for the first time to what is the most probable scenario for engaging a real-world bandit. There are countless reasons why you might be forced to a merge, requiring the fighter to employ BFM for a kill. Follow-on prosecution of bandits who have survived BVR weapons, late situational awareness of a threat aircraft, or the very likely requirement to positively identify a bandit by visual means (VID) prior to killing him are all situations which might lead a fighter to the merge. The degree of offensiveness or defensiveness in a BFM engagement, which results from a BVR set, is very often determined by who achieves the first “tally.” With eyeballs on, a fighter can maneuver his aircraft as necessary to achieve either an immediate kill or a highly offensive position on the bandit.

The ability to gain sight is heavily influenced by environmentals (sun angle, haze, cloud decks, etc.), bandit aircraft size and/or aspect, the volume of the threat sector and aircrew fatigue. Getting that early “tally” also becomes easier the more you are exposed to this type of set. Consider all of these as you begin fine-tuning your lookout technique.

If you are able to achieve sight first, you need to take advantage of it. If an immediate shot opportunity presents itself, take it. If not, move your jet as necessary to either capitalize on the turning room that exists or create the separation you need. If the bandit is blind, it should be a quick fight. If he gets sight, evaluate your degree of offensiveness and maneuver accordingly.

If you find yourself unable to achieve a tally at the merge, keep your airspeed up and start looking aft. You can’t have too many knots in this situation. If you pick up the bandit converting on you, evaluate his range and either counter him defensively or keep on truckin’.

To initiate the engagement, your bandit will direct you to call a CAP (combat air patrol) station and altitude block. The CAP stations will be separated by DME along a TACAN radial. Block altitudes will be defined as those altitudes ending in 0 through 5 and those ending in 6 through 10. Between 5 and 6, there will be a safe zone.

Once both the fighter and the bandit are established on station and within their blocks, the fight is on and the two jets will turn toward each other along the designated radial. The bandit should call off his DME in 2-mile increments and you will echo his call with your own DME. Once a “tally” is obtained, you are cleared out of your block and may proceed to humiliate the bandit accordingly.

I really dislike descending into personal name calling, but if I were to pursue this matter any further, I would inadvertently start making personal remarks about him. I rest my case.
 
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@Peaceful Civilian @Khafee @aliyusuf @Mentee seriously dudes? You think @MastanKhan is teaching us something useful? Let's just take his justification for removing the cannon on JF-17 because of the 'shoot and scoot' doctrine

https://defence.pk/threads/removal-of-autocannon-gsh-23-30-from-the-jf-17.472923/#post-9114898

Now here is what US Navy manuals are teaching pilots on BVR engagements

http://navyflightmanuals.tpub.com/P-1210/Bvr-Engagement-71.htm



I really dislike descending into personal name calling, but if I were to pursue this matter any further, I would inadvertently start making personal remarks about him. I rest my case.

Hi,

If you focus on raising the standards of your posts---rather than looking at me---you will have a win win situation.
 
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Hi,

If you focus on raising the standards of your posts---rather than looking at me---you will have a win win situation.

But I WANT you to focus on raising the politeness levels on your posts because currently I am supposed to be offended and so I can't debunk any of your crackpot theories. If only you would apologize I could show you how you are so wrong in so many different ways. Peace,

:D
 
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But I WANT you to focus on raising the politeness levels on your posts because currently I am supposed to be offended and so I can't debunk any of your crackpot theories. If only you would apologize I could show you how you are so wrong in so many different ways. Peace,

:D

Hi,

You make me laugh at your innocent post---:laugh::laugh::laugh:.
 
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Hi,

If you understand the weapons industry---you would not be saying these things that you are---.

Weapons industry is like no other industry---. You spend you blood and sweat money on something that you may never use in your lifetime and may use 20-30 years down the line and then you expect it to excel at what it does---give you a 110%.

Sometimes---we do not get the results in our life time---. Just like Rajiv Gandhi---. He got pummelled by the opposition for buying the Bofors 155 mm cannons---there were issues of quality---reliability---kick backs and what not---him and congress got plastered over it---he never got to see his name cleared in his lifetime---.

It ended up at kargil---those 155mm cannons were at the end of their life cycle---but did they prove their mettle---Rajiv's name was vindicated---. Indeed the swedes make great weapons---you can close your eyes and buy them.

Why do you think that Rafale is such a potent aircraft---because of its Pedigree Mirage 2 K---and why is mirage 2 k so potent---because of its pedigree Mirage 3 / 5 & Mirage F1. There is a history of success stories behind the lineage.

Now---come back to Pakistan and Paf---they reject the F7PG---china keeps asking them to check them out---but Paf keeps saying no---we already have them they are inferior and---well late 90's issue between pakistan and inda heat up---Paf runs to get the F7PG's---find out that they were even superior to what the chinese had promised.

So---what does that means---it is not the aircraft that has problems---it is our inner prejudices---kickbacks---personal likes and dislikes at higher level that are the issues---. The aircraft has fascinating capabilities---. If Rafale is a 10---then Mirage 2000-9 is a 9.5----.

Last but not the least----you don't live in ether---. Yesterday an enemy sub popped up in your backyard---you thumbed your nose at the world by giving china you port in the arabian seas---. You gave access to the chinese naval vessels the port facilities---you have readied 2 divisions of troops to protect the assets of Cpec---you are changing the power positioning of the world super powers---yet you have a large shortage of fighter / strike aircraft in inventory and still you show no urgency in acquiring something on a fastrak.

So---my question is---even with all your shortcomings that you have admitted to---are you really able to assess what pakistan's need is to defend its air space now?

What I am saying is that your very basic fundamentals of the discussion are flawed---how are you going to overcome that flaw---?

This is war---you have to fight the battle---the enemy is going to shed blood---your military is going to shed blood---where is your preparation and equipment to fight the war that may start tomorrow.
One of the most convincable writing in PDF I've ever read. @MastanKhan criticalthought is not malign intentioned, you guys shall have a peace.
 
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Nope not really going to stop, I never take any edict from bullies like you. Being respectful is very very important my friend, this way we don't spend time squabbling, your attitude, and general disrespect is not appreciated by many on this forum. How I and others choose to spend time on this forum is none of your business (as long as we are within the rules of the forum), you have enough in your posse to stroke your fragile ego. By subject matter if you mean suggesting we by the F35, take off guns from the JF17 or bomb civilian targets to create mayhem then no thank you. You are one of those people who tries very hard to be a contrarian but really comes out as looking very, very silly. Just behave and everyone will be nice to you as well, you should know that.
Some how Mastan has fury against PAF's inaction in the last decades, not you and Criticalthought. When those fury overflow, it accidentally injure others. Cause I had seen him complain about PAF lacking of long term plan for thousands time. In some extent, he is of strategical vision, a member I find very rare of its own type in this forum. I somehow understand him, hope you will. May Allah bless you my brother!

@MastanKhan bro please be easy on those junior members here, cause they didn't experience what you have been through.
 
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Nope not really going to stop, I never take any edict from bullies like you. Being respectful is very very important my friend, this way we don't spend time squabbling, your attitude, and general disrespect is not appreciated by many on this forum. How I and others choose to spend time on this forum is none of your business (as long as we are within the rules of the forum), you have enough in your posse to stroke your fragile ego. By subject matter if you mean suggesting we by the F35, take off guns from the JF17 or bomb civilian targets to create mayhem then no thank you. You are one of those people who tries very hard to be a contrarian but really comes out as looking very, very silly. Just behave and everyone will be nice to you as well, you should know that.

Hi,

Somehow I missed the most important part of your post---. You have not even started yet---9 years on this board and 12 posts a year---. What do you want me to tell you---!
 
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@Thorough Pro, @Khafee, @Mentee, I think this can be a great forum if people don't forget decorum and act immature. @CriticalThought has a good point, there is never any need to be rude, argue till your balls fall off on pure knowledge and opinion but don't get personal. Argue with logic and be prepared to show evidence for a claim you are making, heck anybody can tell a good story. I find it funny when people act bad *** on a forum but would never bow up in person, that's the sign of a coward and a giant vagina.

@Peaceful Civilian @Khafee @aliyusuf @Mentee seriously dudes? You think @MastanKhan is teaching us something useful? Let's just take his justification for removing the cannon on JF-17 because of the 'shoot and scoot' doctrine

https://defence.pk/threads/removal-of-autocannon-gsh-23-30-from-the-jf-17.472923/#post-9114898

Now here is what US Navy manuals are teaching pilots on BVR engagements

http://navyflightmanuals.tpub.com/P-1210/Bvr-Engagement-71.htm



I really dislike descending into personal name calling, but if I were to pursue this matter any further, I would inadvertently start making personal remarks about him. I rest my case.

Guys seriously, you should reconsider you approach. It's not working and when he shows you the grim mirror for your own benefit, you guys go into a denial mode without even comprehending what he's revealing ----

Most of the time he acts like the devils advocate to get the truth in all its callousness . And sometimes I literally laugh my *** off at the cluelessness of the "professionals" :lol:


In that navy thread noooooone showed the courage to debunk his claims except pulling out straw mans logic and throwing personal insults at him Zindabad zindabad ----- Kashmir bny ka --------- Islam ka qilla --------

I know a "professional" here who was comparing the Battle of Badar with the contemporary and futuristic aerial warfare warfare :o: And was very much contented with it .

At times his one liners contain much appealing substance than the long uppity rhetoric of the "professionals" . Not bragging in anyway but after reading his views, a guy like me who had no idea about about weapons and tactics , could coordinate better than you ------ yeah ! I've learnt how to be a better coordinator ------

P:S I suggest you folks take his verbal spanking in a respectful and friendly way, like that of a teacher . Believe you me you are going to learn tons of things --------- rondo bachay :p:
 
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You have, so lets not go down that road.

I doubted only the very specific additions on the M2Ks ordered by UAE. I wanted them checked out by PAF pilots, especially those with kills from WoT.

And, I am of the opinion that they are still Gen 4 whereas Pakistan should be moving on to Gen 4.5. Especially in 5 years time.
 
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Isn't that silly?

It's only practical. I am a realist, and sometimes reality stings. The way I said it initially, it was hurtful, but hopefully you now understand that I am just being practical and a realist.
 
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