Nothing less than the very best for PAF

[CriticalThought]

Hi,

If you understand the weapons industry---you would not be saying these things that you are---.

Weapons industry is like no other industry---. You spend you blood and sweat money on something that you may never use in your lifetime and may use 20-30 years down the line and then you expect it to excel at what it does---give you a 110%.

Sometimes---we do not get the results in our life time---. Just like Rajiv Gandhi---. He got pummelled by the opposition for buying the Bofors 155 mm cannons---there were issues of quality---reliability---kick backs and what not---him and congress got plastered over it---he never got to see his name cleared in his lifetime---.

It ended up at kargil---those 155mm cannons were at the end of their life cycle---but did they prove their mettle---Rajiv's name was vindicated---. Indeed the swedes make great weapons---you can close your eyes and buy them.

Why do you think that Rafale is such a potent aircraft---because of its Pedigree Mirage 2 K---and why is mirage 2 k so potent---because of its pedigree Mirage 3 / 5 & Mirage F1. There is a history of success stories behind the lineage.

Now---come back to Pakistan and Paf---they reject the F7PG---china keeps asking them to check them out---but Paf keeps saying no---we already have them they are inferior and---well late 90's issue between pakistan and inda heat up---Paf runs to get the F7PG's---find out that they were even superior to what the chinese had promised.

So---what does that means---it is not the aircraft that has problems---it is our inner prejudices---kickbacks---personal likes and dislikes at higher level that are the issues---. The aircraft has fascinating capabilities---. If Rafale is a 10---then Mirage 2000-9 is a 9.5----.

Last but not the least----you don't live in ether---. Yesterday an enemy sub popped up in your backyard---you thumbed your nose at the world by giving china you port in the arabian seas---. You gave access to the chinese naval vessels the port facilities---you have readied 2 divisions of troops to protect the assets of Cpec---you are changing the power positioning of the world super powers---yet you have a large shortage of fighter / strike aircraft in inventory and still you show no urgency in acquiring something on a fastrak.

So---my question is---even with all your shortcomings that you have admitted to---are you really able to assess what pakistan's need is to defend its air space now?

What I am saying is that your very basic fundamentals of the discussion are flawed---how are you going to overcome that flaw---?

This is war---you have to fight the battle---the enemy is going to shed blood---your military is going to shed blood---where is your preparation and equipment to fight the war that may start tomorrow.

Not so fast. You should first apologize for your offensive remarks.

 

[CriticalThought]

UAEAF has had a lot of input from PAF and a lot of their analysis has in the past been done by PAF. PAF was initially kept out of the loop when the M2Ks came to the UAE but that changed soon, so PAf has a particularly good idea about the capabilities of the M2K9s. UAE AF has come a long ways since the 70s and 80sand its core has developed amazingly well and it has some good pilots.
Your point about training does not hold true. M2Ks have seen action in the gulf war but not flown by UAEAF so it is a battle proven platform. As to the pilots most of the current PAF and IAF has not seen any action yet are they incapable?

My point wasn't about the M2K and it wasn't about UAEAF pilots. It was about a certain paragraph in the original information posted on the other thread. To recap:

Compared to the Mirage 2000-5 Mk 2, the UAE’s -9 variant incorporates what Dassault coyly refers to as “additional operating capabilities specified by the UAE AF & AD”, and which include enhanced survivability and much-improved long-range stand-off air-to-ground capabilities.

PAF pilots have actual experience in the WoT. There are just so many different ways where they have learnt practical lessons that simply can't be translated to training. I would want the opinion of a PAF pilot from WoT on these 'additional operating capabilities' otherwise I can't be completely sure they will satisfy OUR needs.

I have actually edited my original comments because in hindsight I feel they were condescending and could have heart the feelings of Muslim brother. But I stand by the point that 'unknown customizations' need to be evaluated on a per case basis by Pakistani experts.

 

[Khafee]

My point wasn't about the M2K and it wasn't about UAEAF pilots. It was about a certain paragraph in the original information posted on the other thread. To recap:



PAF pilots have actual experience in the WoT. There are just so many different ways where they have learnt practical lessons that simply can't be translated to training. I would want the opinion of a PAF pilot from WoT on these 'additional operating capabilities' otherwise I can't be completely sure they will satisfy OUR needs.

I have actually edited my original comments because in hindsight I feel they were condescending and could have heart the feelings of Muslim brother. But I stand by the point that 'unknown customizations' need to be evaluated on a per case basis by Pakistani experts.

Sir, at this point in time, we are putting the cart in front of the horse. The UAE AF is not getting rid of these aircrafts till 2021 min.

They are on par with the existing IAF M2K's after the upgrade. In terms of Radar the RDY-2 is nearly as good as the APG-68. To put it very bluntly, the M2K in A2A config would be as lethal as the Blk52 in the hands of the PAF.

The M3 & M5's fills a role in the PAF, and that role if taken up by the M2K-9 would not only be fulfilled, but exceeded.

Please do look up Red Flag exercises where the M2K-9 participated, as well as how an F22 was target locked as well.

"one Raptor was claimed as killed by a UAE Mirage 2000 during a mock engagement."
https://theaviationist.com/2012/04/30/iran-f-22/

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Not so fast. You should first apologize for your offensive remarks.

Don't act like 10 year old, Don't take everything personally. Learn to take criticism,may be you are new here I think you will learn with passing time , you are not coming here for argument or to learn something. Don't try to hide behind Mods, And don't act like dictator to ask apology. Be strong heart, this forum is not for weak heart, you have to show weapons & technology in war to win fight & to keep enemy at bay, It's not only about religion that matter in war, It's all about superior technology and machine, Gone are days for importance of Man behind machine. You have to prepare yourself from any event otherwise be ready to run towards china or U.S.A to stop war & to save yourself from something big coming .
Regards

 

[Khafee]

@Horus @Oscar @Zaki @WebMaster This troll is literally stalking me on multiple threads and even after repeated warnings is continuing in his insulting manner. This is preposterous and needs to stop. I have started this thread to answer @Khafee and somehow this person thinks he can butt into other people's discussions. Senior or not, his behavior is despicable. I don't want to descend down to his level and start a name calling match.

To learn sometimes you have to bear a lot of pain. If a knowledgeable senior is putting you down, don't be a spoilt kid, you made mistakes that's why you are getting it. Shut up bear it like a man, and learn. Knowledge / education is the only thing that will set you apart from the next guy.

Even some of the mods make fun of MK, but I respect him, because he has the God given talent of thinking outside the box, and that my friend is a blessing.

We are lucky to have someone like him on this forum. You made silly condescending comments, and weren't going to get jack out of me. But you apologized and we moved on. Do the same. Build bridges with people who stimulate you intellectually, who are knowledgeable, try to understand their point of view, no matter how vague it may seem to you, right now.

Please think with a cool mind, what I just said.

Best Regards

 

[aliyusuf]

@CriticalThought Bro, please don't take it too hard. I consider @MastanKhan Sahib an asset to this forum. He sometimes comes across as harsh and up at your face. But that is just because he cares so much about Pakistan and wants the next generation to come up to speed about the reality of things ASAP.

Don't feel disheartened. Learn from the seniors in this forum.

 

[MastanKhan]

Not so fast. You should first apologize for your offensive remarks.

Hi,

Okay---if that makes you feel good---but till next time.

Hi Khan,

Just curious to know about your comments regarding latest Pakistani missile tests. Whats your view on it ? I have not seen your posts in Ababeel and Babur 3 topics. Its quite evident that your expertise are in airforce matters but nevertheless your detail view will be a good read for readers like me.

Hi,

Thanks for asking---. I have not VESTED enough time on the missiles---so for that reason I don't write about them---.

 

[araz]

Although I agree with you on the time of delivery question among many other variables for the procurement of the M2K-9 and also preferring the J-31option, I still do not see how a medium weight fighter plane would affect the image or sales of the light weight JF-17..!?

It is about perception of what signals are given to the world where on the one hand you buy a single engined mid weight AC which has stopped being manufactured since 2002 and for which infrastructure will need to be established, while trying to sell your own single engined AC, even though light weight one, to the world which you consider to be as good as the M2Ks at least the mid specked ones. The 16s can be jistified on the basis of existing infrastructure.
A

 

[The SC]

It is about perception of what signals are given to the world where on the one hand you buy a single engined mid weight AC which has stopped being manufactured since 2002 and for which infrastructure will need to be established, while trying to sell your own single engined AC, even though light weight one, to the world which you consider to be as good as the M2Ks at least the mid specked ones. The 16s can be jistified on the basis of existing infrastructure.
A

Doesn't it depend on requirements and budget? What if they come at a very good price and transfer of infrastructure which won't be needed anymore in the UAE, since they will need a new infra for their new fighter planes? I am just talking about a special fund to procure them if required, since they are very potent fighter planes.. without affecting any other option for new fighters open to Pakistan, be it the J-10 C, the J-31 or even some F-16s to be MLUed..
The countries that need the JF-17 are not necessarily, able to buy or operate the M2K-9 in general, except some GCC members and Egypt. who needs it to replace their light fighters..

 

[Mentee]

@Horus @Oscar @Zaki @WebMaster This troll is literally stalking me on multiple threads and even after repeated warnings is continuing in his insulting manner. This is preposterous and needs to stop. I have started this thread to answer @Khafee and somehow this person thinks he can butt into other people's discussions. Senior or not, his behavior is despicable. I don't want to descend down to his level and start a name calling match.

Things , which you would come to know about modern warfare after spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in some international war college , he's telling you for free --- Allah He Hafiz Hain

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

In real life---the very best is never the solution---but it is the begining of a problem.

It is just like chasing a dream or a dog chasing its tail. We can do that if we have free time and don't have any liabilities---but when we as a nation are closer to a war and have fought many a battles on a continuous bases in the last 18 years---the choice of the best subsides to give way to what is available.

What has been misunderstood or never explained by anyone---that just the presence of a potent weapon in the arena is enough to make the opponent think and make them take a step back---.

It may also come down to the percentage of losses when looking at the level of threat from enemy attack---. If facing the F7PG the losses maybe miniscule---then off-course---the chances of a strike a very very high---but if facing the M2K9---the ratio of perceived losses changes to 50/50 or 40/60 or even 30/70 in the enemy's favor---those losses may not be aceptable to the enemy---thusthe goal posts in the playing field have changed.

In weapons procurement---at time of war---what is available is the best weapon---and not what will be getting ready 10 years down the road.

 

[MastanKhan]

@Thorough Pro, @Khafee, @Mentee, I think this can be a great forum if people don't forget decorum and act immature. @CriticalThought has a good point, there is never any need to be rude, argue till your balls fall off on pure knowledge and opinion but don't get personal. Argue with logic and be prepared to show evidence for a claim you are making, heck anybody can tell a good story. I find it funny when people act bad *** on a forum but would never bow up in person, that's the sign of a coward and a giant vagina.

Hi,

Stop ------ and write something about the subject matter---.

I don't think that I have seen an original thread from you about any matter of significance---unless it is a news item---.

Take the lead---follow your own commendations first.

 

[MastanKhan]

Nope not really going to stop, I never take any edict from bullies like you. Being respectful is very very important my friend, this way we don't spend time squabbling, your attitude, and general disrespect is not appreciated by many on this forum. How I and others choose to spend time on this forum is none of your business (as long as we are within the rules of the forum), you have enough in your posse to stroke your fragile ego. By subject matter if you mean suggesting we by the F35, take off guns from the JF17 or bomb civilian targets to create mayhem then no thank you. You are one of those people who tries very hard to be a contrarian but really comes out as looking very, very silly. Just behave and everyone will be nice to you as well, you should know that.

Hi,

Write something about the subject matter---don't waste your energies---.

 

[MastanKhan]

Yawn.....

Hi,

For 9 years on this board---you have been sleeping my boy---so yawning is the only thing you can do other than sleeping.

12 posts a year---and then you suddenly have 4 posts in a few hours---be careful---you might get a stroke from over exertion.

 

[CriticalThought]

Hi,

Okay---if that makes you feel good---but till next time.

I find it useless to engage with someone who is promising rudeness in the future. And by the way, that doesn't even sound like an apology in the first place. I have to squeeze really hard to get a tiny drop of apology from that.

Sir, at this point in time, we are putting the cart in front of the horse. The UAE AF is not getting rid of these aircrafts till 2021 min.

They are on par with the existing IAF M2K's after the upgrade. In terms of Radar the RDY-2 is nearly as good as the APG-68. To put it very bluntly, the M2K in A2A config would be as lethal as the Blk52 in the hands of the PAF.

The M3 & M5's fills a role in the PAF, and that role if taken up by the M2K-9 would not only be fulfilled, but exceeded.

Please do look up Red Flag exercises where the M2K-9 participated, as well as how an F22 was target locked as well.

"one Raptor was claimed as killed by a UAE Mirage 2000 during a mock engagement."
https://theaviationist.com/2012/04/30/iran-f-22/
View attachment 372425

Actually, the M2K has even better credentials than a token win in a mock engagement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_2000#Greece

On 8 October 1996, 7 months after the escalation of the dispute with Turkey over the Imia/Kardak islands, a Greek Mirage 2000 fired an R.550 Magic II missile and shot down a Turkish F-16D[19] over the Aegean Sea. The Turkish pilot died, while the co-pilot ejected and was rescued by Greek forces.[20][21] In August 2012, after the downing of a RF-4E on the Syrian Coast, Turkish Defence Minister İsmet Yılmaz confirmed that the Turkish F-16D was shot down by a Greek Mirage 2000 with an R.550 Magic II in 1996 after reportedly violating Greek airspace near Chios island.

I have never doubted the M2K platform itself.