Note to US: Pakistan’s insatiable appetite for F-16s

[Super Falcon]

Rubbish article when pak eyes f 22

Note to US: Pakistan’s insatiable appetite for F-16s
Despite its plan to induct at least 150 JF-17 Thunder, F-16s remain heart and soul of PAF's fighter squadrons
By Naveed Ahmad
Published: January 21, 2016
The Congress has recently blocked the White House-approved sale of eight F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan. The deal is viewed to have no relevance to Pakistan’s war against terror besides being used in offensives against India, Washington’s recent ally with a staunch lobby.
Last March, the US House Committee on Foreign Affairs blocked sale of cutter vessels worth $150 million to the Pakistan Navy on the same pretext. Defense purchases from the US have rarely been upfront commercial transactions. The White House never shies away from taking political and diplomatic mileage, thereof.
High performance
Despite its plan to induct at least 150 indigenously produced JF-17 Thunder, F-16s currently remain the heart and soul of the Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF) fighter squadrons. First acquired during the 1980s, Pakistan has 70 combat-ready fighting falcons. In 2012, the United States delivered 14 used but upgraded F-16s to the PAF. Islamabad managed to acquire older version of 13 Jordanian F-16s in 2014, which will go through a mid-life upgrade programme.
JF-17 finds buyer at Dubai Air Show: report
The formidable fighter jets set a production record of 4,550 units, sold to 26 air forces. Despite technological advances in fighter technology generation after generation, this system is the most affordable and reliable in its category. In a recent competition, F-16 outmaneuvered F35-lighten II, the most expensive fifth-generation fighter.
Along with the F-16, the PAF does eye SU-35, F-35 and F-22 Raptor besides some J series Chinese fifth-generation fighter jets. During the period of US sanctions, Pakistan eagerly pursued purchase of French Mirage 2000 and Swedish JAS 39 Gripen. The deal with the French could not go through mainly due to the high price tag while Sweden succumbed to US pressure.
The risks of continued and added reliance on F-16s are dreadful. Given the influential Indian lobby in the States, sanctions are likely to be slapped against Pakistan in case of war with its eastern neighbour. The other undermining factor will be increased presence of US officials at PAF airbases to prevent the latest version from being shared with China.
Regardless of hiccups such as the Pressler Amendment, which banned most economic and military assistance to Pakistan, and Indian opposition to the sale, F-16s continue to be every Pakistani pilot’s favorite multi-role fighter. Until the Chinese fifth-generation fighter technology matures up and becomes ready to be shared with Pakistan, the Air Force will rely on an assortment of F-16s in good numbers against India’s Su-30, MiG-29, Mirage 2000-v and Rafale jets. The F-16 is a resilient fighter jet with an excellent safety record and since PAF servicemen have a long experience in handling the machine the crew won’t need training if the jets are added up again. Induction of a new platform, on the other end, will be costly and time consuming both.
Pakistan meets JF-17 production target
Give and take
Ironically, F-16s continue to be a determinant of relations between Pakistan and the United States. Although blocking the sale of F-16s to one of the earliest users sounds absurd in Pakistan, US Congressmen believe ties between Washington and Islamabad are not warm enough for such a sensitive transaction to continue.
For Obama administration, sale of a handful of fourth-generation fighters is a means to exercise leverage over Pakistan. Islamabad has already tied itself closely to China, and to an extent Russia. It’s anybody’s guess if the Obama administration will be able to overcome the obstacles to the deal posed in the Congress for the time being.
Naveed Ahmad is a Pakistani investigative journalist and academic with extensive reporting experience in the Middle East and North Africa. He is based in Doha and Istanbul. He tweets @naveed360

Note to US: Pakistan’s insatiable appetite for F-16s - The Express Tribune

 

[Maarkhoor]

People commenting against F-16 ignoring the fact that this machine is the best in subcontinent no match perfect record can serve Pakistan well for nest one decade or even more with newer blocks.

 

[Mav3rick]

The day Pakistan retires the last F16 will be a great day in the history of Pakistan.For the time just play around with US if they give some F16 then good enough otherwise no more deals with the devil, and start investing in J-31 and also make a case for future so we can see j-20 too.

Agree with the part in bold above. How I wish that we get over the F series of fighters and focus on J series.

Those su-30MKI didnt serve any purpose more than paper bag threats after the staged 26/11 drama, when India had achieved international support to strike inside Pakistan.

Buying better toys is a little different than actually using them. There isnt going to be a war anytime soon. And as far as I understand F-16s are being sought because PAF has been using it for a very long time and is in love with its cost to performance ratio. It would be used against TTP.

Every country even ones that have no enemies buy newer and better items to keep their force modernized not to necessarily use it against another country, which is what PAF is trying to do as well.

But facing so many hurdles every time they place an order seems a huge waste of time and effort on both sides which is why having an alternate choice is better. And achieving self reliance would eliminate such dramas altogether, which should be the end goal. Which is where jf-17 comes in.

Yes currently jf-17 is not totally on par with f16 but saying it will never be as if its tech isnt going to grow is something a village shaman might say. So in the end jf-17 block 3 is def. better than f-16 block beg+strings attached. But thats my opinion, PAF would know a whole lot better than me.

Agree with you. A string-free JF-17 is worth a whole lot more then a strings-attached F-22 Raptor in an actual war with India!

 

[Blue Marlin]

The EFT or the Rafale, neither are worth the money IMO. F-16's newer blocks (currently an upgrade in works), make it on par with these planes. In fact, the EFT has been handed its rear in a plate multiple times. A few times, by F-16's block 15's!! So not to offend anyone, what the fuk does one get that you don't get in an F-16 block 60++????

The answer is NOTHING. The PAF and the Israeli Air-force's romance with the F-16 is actually justified. Where else do you get one of the most combat proven and hardened jets in the entire world for 60% of the money you'd pay for the alternatives (Western alternatives like the EFT and the Rafale's). The answer is you don't get the durability, quality and advancement in any other platform, and affordable maintenance.... period!!

So if the Pakistanis wanted to move onto something else, IMO, the best option would be a one time large JV or an investment (TOT) to acquire the J-10 C version. Call it a JFT block IV. And add a few more upgrades to it. BAAM, you are in EFT and Rafale's category and at which point, it would be a Pakistani platform, with serious future R&D and upgrade options and ability to integrate additional weapons, and advance however Pakistan feels the need.

If things go well in the near future and Pakistan remains a democracy and a growing economy, I can see Pakistan integrating French missiles, or even AMRAAM's and Sidewinders onto this future JFT block IV jet (they did integrate the Sidewinder onto their F-7PG version so the experience is already there).

With such acquisition, Pakistan can keep the F-16's as a supplementary platform but she won't need to buy another platform if Pakistanis continue internal R&D for the future. The version after the proposed JFT block IV, could be a stealthy version locally built also (JFT block V).

Then the only other platform they would be acquired, would be the J-31 when it becomes available in 2019-2020. Perfect strategy, independent of any future purchase by building advanced versions in house and integrating weapons from China and others as needed

i knew someone would bring this up and of all the people i hoped i dreaded it be you but ehhh. let give it another shot.

when paf did exercises with the raf and their typhoons. you need to know nato mainly prepares/trains for bvra (beyond visual range engagements) why they have jet capable of dealing dog fights. thr f16 a/b a very light planes as compared to further variants of the model. so highly trained pliots coupled with very maneuverable jets then you have a deadly combo. and besides. the raf was interested in learning tactics than anything else. also this was about over a decade ago and they had old tranche 1's.

why go for the j10? when they can as you say "get one of the most combat proven and hardened jets in the entire world for 60% of the money you'd pay for the alternatives (Western alternatives like the EFT and the Rafale's)" its not combat proven, its under powered, its a new platform that will require millions for training and even more for servicing and overhaul facilities. looking at pakistan's history they dont buy a bit of something they buy a lot of them (starfighter is an exception) and buying a lot of j10's is suicidal. the french wont risk indian bussiness just so they can sell a couple hundred missiles to pakistan, and the usa wont allow the aim120's to be integrated on to non americain platforms. the sd10 is slightly better than the 120-c. back when the usa needed pakistan was when they allowed less potent aim-9's

this g2g deal for 8 f16 is probably the last american jet they will ever get. yes a few more f16's till a 5th gen fighter can come into.

 

[Mav3rick]

So this is a typical Pakistani response. I've learned it the hard way. When something doesn't happen your way, there is ALWAYS a Mafia, Corruption or some "Conspiracy Theory" involved in it. But it can never be a strategy or a good thing because its against that one person's personal agenda or feelings. You can see this mentality in all other threads, specially the political ones and related to Pakistani Army's.

I just wrote a pretty detailed post above yours and explained why Pakistan is still in love with the F-16 (and so is the Israeli AF and for VERY valid reasons). Please read up and give me your opinion. Its always valuable, outside of the conspiracy theories

There is no doubt that the latest variant of an F-16 would probably take out the latest Rafael in a 1-1 combat in PAF v/s IAF scenario (combat experience on F-16's counted as a factor). However, what good would even an F-22 raptor be to PAF if it comes with conditions that impose sanctions on spares and armaments in case of a war with India? That extreme fighting machine would only end up acting as a sitting duck! And that is the reason so many of us are so extremely against F-16's, it's not like we get additional F-16's and related spares, upgrades, armaments etc., at our wish and demand.

 

[IceCold]

Along with the F-16, the PAF does eye SU-35, F-35 and F-22 Raptor besides some J series Chinese fifth-generation fighter jets.

I didnt knew we were interested in F-22 raptor. loll

 

[Strigon]

There is no doubt that the latest variant of an F-16 would probably take out the latest Rafael in a 1-1 combat in PAF v/s IAF scenario (combat experience on F-16's counted as a factor). However, what good would even an F-22 raptor be to PAF if it comes with conditions that impose sanctions on spares and armaments in case of a war with India? That extreme fighting machine would only end up acting as a sitting duck! And that is the reason so many of us are so extremely against F-16's, it's not like we get additional F-16's and related spares, upgrades, armaments etc., at our wish and demand.

And not to forget that rumored "kill switch".

Self reliance is the key, we have the time what we need is resources and people motivated enough to spend many man hours studying and implementing technology in home grown hardware.

 

[CriticalThinker02]

Maybe the PAF is thinking of long term goals and waiting for the 5th generation to become mainstream instead of wasting funds on another 4.5 generation jet like the J-10c, they are going to get those 8 F-16 and wait out the period?

War with India is highly unlikely.

 

[CriticalThinker02]

According to this article in 2006 Pakistan approved the offered purchase of 36 FC-20s which was a variant of J-10b.

What happened to this deal and why didn't it materialized or did it?

China Officially Offers Pakistan J-10 Variant | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[Tipu7]

What if the U.S. offers to give a squadron of F-22 Raptors to Pakistan on the basis of several conditions: Give up all nuclear weapons, the Raptors will themselves be of an equal deterrent to India.

No Thanks.................. We don't need Raptors................

That was a back up deal in case if Joint Fighter program fails............
So it is no longer needed..............

According to this article in 2006 Pakistan approved the offered purchase of 36 FC-20s which was a variant of J-10b.

What happened to this deal and why didn't it materialized or did it?

China Officially Offers Pakistan J-10 Variant | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[Mav3rick]

Maybe the PAF is thinking of long term goals and waiting for the 5th generation to become mainstream instead of wasting funds on another 4.5 generation jet like the J-10c, they are going to get those 8 F-16 and wait out the period?

War with India is highly unlikely.

PEACE can only be guaranteed through an extremely potent, supremely professional and perfectly equipment Military.

 

[IceCold]

The F16 mafia in the air force controls all the decisions.

F16 mafia lol. Well said sir.

 

[Leviza]

There might be options available, but there also might be a price to pay. The bigger the reward, the higher the price- I'm just speculating here, so don't jump down my throat everyone.
What if the U.S. offers to give a squadron of F-22 Raptors to Pakistan on the basis of several conditions: Give up all nuclear weapons, the Raptors will themselves be of an equal deterrent to India. In this way, the fear of nuclear proliferation won't be an issue any more. Nor will the fear remain that someone (or a small group in cahoots with each other) within the Pakistani military establishment smuggle one warhead and pass it on for a personal monetary reward or greater perceived good. The worst that can happen with a jet is that it can be destroyed by militants. It can't fly off without extensive crew support and logistics. So it doesn't pose a "threat to the world" as some circles in the U.S. like to call it.
Secondly, the technology of the Raptor will have to be protected. The U.S. can attach a small team of engineers to the squadron for carrying out sensitive maintenance and repairs themselves. This will safeguard their tech from being stolen. Of course this team won't have free reign in military base in Pakistan, they will be working in tandem and co-ordination with their local counter-parts.
I wonder if this is a price or an option that can be considered to put to rest the thorny issue of Pakistan's nuclear weapons. It would also alleviate the problem of a credible deterrence for Pakistan as well. The F-22 will maintain a technological edge over India for many decades to come. And if along the line the U.S. decides to break the accord, Pakistan can always fly the jets to China to be nitpicked. And there goes the U.S's tech gap. In return China can provide, I don't know, several squadrons of their own 5th generation planes to Pakistan.
It's just an explorative thought.

Rubbish totally rubbish .. So what you mean is that Pakistan give up every thing for F-22 , all nukes , come on ..

Why don't USA does the same and give all NUKES to Russia and china , in return they make sure they wont target anything .. and more over F-22 is already with USA which is way advance to country anything ..

BTW , keep in mind that only culprit who ever used nukes on civilian people is also USA .. soo , track record of USA using NUKEs is not good ...

I hope you understand this and either delete your rubbish post.. thanks

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Yeah I can even understand F-35 but F-22 was like..

Like minds think a like
A transh article with BS claim about PAF wanting F22 can be only picked and posted here by someone with similar mind

Sorry it was you