Note to US: Pakistan’s insatiable appetite for F-16s

[CHD]

J-31 sure, but J-20 fat chance Pakistan won't retire it's F-16 for another 20 years at minimum.


why haven't you bought JH-7B, J-10, or J-11 yet from China is perplexing. what is holding Pakistan back from pulling the trigger?? or is it China who isn't playing ball.

Due to the billions of CSF and support in war on terror, i always had a feeling of conditions buying toys only from US.
And i would have liked j-10c instead of f-16, china can't sell j-11 due to Russia.
Most people dont believe but i am pretty sure in future their will be j-20 in PAF colours when CPEC becomes a success and operational.Its not just a corridor its an alliance.
But j-20 will only be here if Pakistan and china decides to go for offensive strategy

 

[C130]

Due to the billions of CSF and support in war on terror, i always had a feeling of conditions buying toys only from US.
And i would have liked j-10c instead of f-16, china can't sell j-11 due to Russia.
Most people dont believe but i am pretty sure in future their will be j-20 in PAF colours when CPEC becomes a success and operational.Its not just a corridor its an alliance.
But j-20 will only be here if Pakistan and china decides to go for offensive strategy

that would be a long long time down the road for J-20.

J-31 does make a lot of sense. If it's RCS is .01 to .1 that would be a huge advantage over the Su-30MKI, and especially if FGFA,AMCA doesn't pan out as planned.

 

[Viper0011.]

The typhoon is the only good western 4++ gen fighter avaliable to pakistan. to bad its £120+ million
true though they should move on from the f16, but the qestion is, to what?

The EFT or the Rafale, neither are worth the money IMO. F-16's newer blocks (currently an upgrade in works), make it on par with these planes. In fact, the EFT has been handed its rear in a plate multiple times. A few times, by F-16's block 15's!! So not to offend anyone, what the fuk does one get that you don't get in an F-16 block 60++????

The answer is NOTHING. The PAF and the Israeli Air-force's romance with the F-16 is actually justified. Where else do you get one of the most combat proven and hardened jets in the entire world for 60% of the money you'd pay for the alternatives (Western alternatives like the EFT and the Rafale's). The answer is you don't get the durability, quality and advancement in any other platform, and affordable maintenance.... period!!

So if the Pakistanis wanted to move onto something else, IMO, the best option would be a one time large JV or an investment (TOT) to acquire the J-10 C version. Call it a JFT block IV. And add a few more upgrades to it. BAAM, you are in EFT and Rafale's category and at which point, it would be a Pakistani platform, with serious future R&D and upgrade options and ability to integrate additional weapons, and advance however Pakistan feels the need.

If things go well in the near future and Pakistan remains a democracy and a growing economy, I can see Pakistan integrating French missiles, or even AMRAAM's and Sidewinders onto this future JFT block IV jet (they did integrate the Sidewinder onto their F-7PG version so the experience is already there).

With such acquisition, Pakistan can keep the F-16's as a supplementary platform but she won't need to buy another platform if Pakistanis continue internal R&D for the future. The version after the proposed JFT block IV, could be a stealthy version locally built also (JFT block V).

Then the only other platform they would be acquired, would be the J-31 when it becomes available in 2019-2020. Perfect strategy, independent of any future purchase by building advanced versions in house and integrating weapons from China and others as needed

 

[MastanKhan]

J-31 sure, but J-20 fat chance Pakistan won't retire it's F-16 for another 20 years at minimum.


why haven't you bought JH-7B, J-10, or J-11 yet from China is perplexing. what is holding Pakistan back from pulling the trigger?? or is it China who isn't playing ball.

The F16 mafia in the air force controls all the decisions.

 

[Strigon]

JF-17 any block won't be a true replacement for the F-16

If the India Mig-29 could hold the F-16 back in reserve in a time of war imagine what the Su-30MKI would do facing against JF-17

Those su-30MKI didnt serve any purpose more than paper bag threats after the staged 26/11 drama, when India had achieved international support to strike inside Pakistan.

Buying better toys is a little different than actually using them. There isnt going to be a war anytime soon. And as far as I understand F-16s are being sought because PAF has been using it for a very long time and is in love with its cost to performance ratio. It would be used against TTP.

Every country even ones that have no enemies buy newer and better items to keep their force modernized not to necessarily use it against another country, which is what PAF is trying to do as well.

But facing so many hurdles every time they place an order seems a huge waste of time and effort on both sides which is why having an alternate choice is better. And achieving self reliance would eliminate such dramas altogether, which should be the end goal. Which is where jf-17 comes in.

Yes currently jf-17 is not totally on par with f16 but saying it will never be as if its tech isnt going to grow is something a village shaman might say. So in the end jf-17 block 3 is def. better than f-16 block beg+strings attached. But thats my opinion, PAF would know a whole lot better than me.

No doubt JF-17 is a good fighter but you have to consider the following

1) F-16 is a very matured platform while JF-17 needs more time to mature

2) PAF has invested lot in F-16 training and knows them inside out

3) A mature JF-17 may be in the same price range as F-16 and the TCO of F-16 may actually be lower than JF-17

F-16 deal would surely be approved.

Its a constantly evolving aircraft that needs improvements in tech and air frame as time passes by. There is no aircraft in the world that rolled out of the factory to be the best and never requiring improvements.

With time PAF will also learn jf17 inside out and make it better.

It might be approved yes but is it worth the effort to negotiate every time + have no guarantee on spare parts is my question. With inferior jf-17 that one day could match its capabilities, although the fortune teller @C130 in all his wisdom of future has declared it impossible, can provide the advantage of self-relined/ partnered manufacture + spare parts as needed with passage of time.

 

[Viper0011.]

The F16 mafia in the air force controls all the decisions.

So this is a typical Pakistani response. I've learned it the hard way. When something doesn't happen your way, there is ALWAYS a Mafia, Corruption or some "Conspiracy Theory" involved in it. But it can never be a strategy or a good thing because its against that one person's personal agenda or feelings. You can see this mentality in all other threads, specially the political ones and related to Pakistani Army's.

I just wrote a pretty detailed post above yours and explained why Pakistan is still in love with the F-16 (and so is the Israeli AF and for VERY valid reasons). Please read up and give me your opinion. Its always valuable, outside of the conspiracy theories

 

[dadeechi]

The EFT or the Rafale, neither are worth the money IMO. F-16's newer blocks (currently an upgrade in works), make it on par with these planes. In fact, the EFT has been handed its rear in a plate multiple times. A few times, by F-16's block 15's!! So not to offend anyone, what the fuk does one get that you don't get in an F-16 block 60++????

The answer is NOTHING. The PAF and the Israeli Air-force's romance with the F-16 is actually justified. Where else do you get one of the most combat proven and hardened jets in the entire world for 60% of the money you'd pay for the alternatives (Western alternatives like the EFT and the Rafale's). The answer is you don't get the durability, quality and advancement in any other platform, and affordable maintenance.... period!!

So if the Pakistanis wanted to move onto something else, IMO, the best option would be a one time large JV or an investment (TOT) to acquire the J-10 C version. Call it a JFT block IV. And add a few more upgrades to it. BAAM, you are in EFT and Rafale's category and at which point, it would be a Pakistani platform, with serious future R&D and upgrade options and ability to integrate additional weapons, and advance however Pakistan feels the need.

If things go well in the near future and Pakistan remains a democracy and a growing economy, I can see Pakistan integrating French missiles, or even AMRAAM's and Sidewinders onto this future JFT block IV jet (they did integrate the Sidewinder onto their F-7PG version so the experience is already there).

With such acquisition, Pakistan can keep the F-16's as a supplementary platform but she won't need to buy another platform if Pakistanis continue internal R&D for the future. The version after the proposed JFT block IV, could be a stealthy version locally built also (JFT block V).

Then the only other platform they would be acquired, would be the J-31 when it becomes available in 2019-2020. Perfect strategy, independent of any future purchase by building advanced versions in house and integrating weapons from China and others as needed

F-16s are the best bang for the buck.

The key reason India does not opt for F-16s is because Pakistan already has them. For Pakistan F-16s makes perfect sense.

 

[Viper0011.]

if KSA,UAE,Qatar, and Kuwait chip in to buy Pakistan 24 to 48 of them, that's a real possiblity

I've seen threads on here on how desperate KSA is for Pakistan support politically and militarily.

JF-17 any block won't be a true replacement for the F-16

If the India Mig-29 could hold the F-16 back in reserve in a time of war imagine what the Su-30MKI would do facing against JF-17

But the question is, why are the GCC countries needed anyway? What exactly do the Pakistanis get from the EFT or Rafale that an F-16 block 60++ (for 60% of the cost) doesn't provide???? The answer is nothing.

So why not stick to what works and has been proven for over 4 decades against all kinds of platforms?

JFT block III (and Retro to block II and I), would be able to hold an SU-30 back in the reserve also. Just like a JFT wouldn't want 2-3 BVR's chasing after it, the SU-30 wouldn't want that either .

2-3 capable BVR's with high off bore-sight and range give pretty close to a 100% HTK ratio. The planes themselves now mean less. The avionics, AESA and missile systems mean a lot more due to BVR fights that will take place about 90% of the time.

So the planes themselves are becoming a bit irrelevant due to dog fighting aspects going away. So therefore, the F-16s still provide the best bang for the buck in Pakistan's situation.

 

[MastanKhan]

So this is a typical Pakistani response. I've learned it the hard way. When something doesn't happen your way, there is ALWAYS a Mafia, Corruption or some "Conspiracy Theory" involved in it. But it can never be a strategy or a good thing because its against that one person's personal agenda or feelings. You can see this mentality in all other threads, specially the political ones and related to Pakistani Army's.

I just wrote a pretty detailed post above yours and explained why Pakistan is still in love with the F-16 (and so is the Israeli AF and for VERY valid reasons). Please read up and give me your opinion. Its always valuable, outside of the conspiracy theories

Hi,

I read you post---and you hit the nail on the head. The F16 BLK 60 / 61 are a unique aircraft in their class---that can go toe to toe with the rafales and eurofighters no doubt about that---

But the thing is that it is a primary war bird for the air force----your air force is totally dependant on its performance. So---there can be no strings attached and no fear of strings attached---not even an iots.

" It is just like that-----you are at a bar---someone picks a fight with you---you get up to defend your self---and your IDIOT friend comes and wraps around his arms around you and try to move you away---thus allowing the aggressor to stick a knife in your stomach---and the friend is then screaming oh you killed my friend---. No---he did not killed your friend---but you killed your friend ".

This is the american liability of the F16.

That is why---Paf needs to go for the J10C---and run a parrallel program for the JF17.

The F16----let the U S walk in with the offer---.

Viper---the truth is that if the BLK2 JF17 does not come close to the BLK52 F16---then the JF17 program is a lie--a fake and a fraud---.

But if the JF17 is as close to the BLK 52----then by default---the J10C should be superior to the BLK 52.

And the most important thing---you can get the high off bore sight missiles---what is it the chinese PL8 or PL 10---which would not be available to the F16.

And you know that the Mig29 with hobs took out the F16 in excercizse years ago.

 

[Viper0011.]

I read you post---and you hit the nail on the head. The F16 BLK 60 / 61 are a unique aircraft in their class---that can go toe to toe with the rafales and eurofighters no doubt about that---

But the thing is that it is a primary war bird for the air force----your air force is totally dependant on its performance. So---there can be no strings attached and no fear of strings attached---not even an iots.

" It is just like that-----you are at a bar---someone picks a fight with you---you get up to defend your self---and your IDIOT friend comes and wraps around his arms around you and try to move you away---thus allowing the aggressor to stick a knife in your stomach---and the friend is then screaming oh you killed my friend---. No---he did not killed your friend---but you killed your friend ".

This is the american liability of the F16. That is why---Paf needs to go for the J10C---and run a parrallel program for the JF17.

The F16----let the U S walk in with the offer---.

Viper---the truth is that if the BLK2 JF17 does not come close to the BLK52 F16---then the JF17 program is a lie--a fake and a fraud---.

But if the JF17 is as close to the BLK 52----then by default---the J10C should be superior to the BLK 52.

And the most important thing---you can get the high off bore sight missiles---what is it the chinese PL8 or PL 10---which would not be available to the F16.

And you know that the Mig29 with hobs took out the F16 in excercizse years ago.

I understand what you are saying. Which is why I keep saying the JFT needs to be like the block 52 and if acquired, the J-10C (block IV of the JFT) would match that of F-16's block 60, EFT and Rafales of the world. So now in this situation, Pakistan keeping F-16's in a supplementary role, won't be too hesitant as they aren't ENTIRELY depending on the F-16. You'd have your own top tier and it would be a comfort zone thing.

I am about 99% positive. Pakistan of today, isn't the Pakistan or 2012, 2008, 2001 or before. At this point, its one of the fastest growing economy with a strong system in place. If the civilians run the country, the US won't put sanctions on. The US has never attacked a Democratic Country run by Civilians. It never needed to as the Civilian governments ensure political, social, religious and all other types of stability and opportunity of her people. So democratic nations rarely go to war, and that's usually for a valid reason.

So IMO, I don't think Pakistan with a system and efforts in destroying extremism and terrorism, will ever have sanctions in place. In fact, her influence has grown a LOT more recently to GCC, Russia, Iran, etc. But for internal security and a comfort zone thing, the J-10C may be a very good acquisition for Pakistan.

 

[MastanKhan]

I understand what you are saying. Which is why I keep saying the JFT needs to be like the block 52 and if acquired, the J-10C (block IV of the JFT) would match that of F-16's block 60, EFT and Rafales of the world. So now in this situation, Pakistan keeping F-16's in a supplementary role, won't be too hesitant as they aren't ENTIRELY depending on the F-16. You'd have your own top tier and it would be a comfort zone thing.

I am about 99% positive. Pakistan of today, isn't the Pakistan or 2012, 2008, 2001 or before. At this point, its one of the fastest growing economy with a strong system in place. If the civilians run the country, the US won't put sanctions on. The US has never attacked a Democratic Country run by Civilians. It never needed to as the Civilian governments ensure political, social, religious and all other types of stability and opportunity of her people. So democratic nations rarely go to war, and that's usually for a valid reason.

So IMO, I don't think Pakistan with a system and efforts in destroying extremism and terrorism, will ever have sanctions in place. In fact, her influence has grown a LOT more recently to GCC, Russia, Iran, etc. But for internal security and a comfort zone thing, the J-10C may be a very good acquisition for Pakistan.

Viper,

what you say makes a lots of sense---but here is the thing---. In today's world---if your air force cannot perform---you are better off packing up your bags and accepting the terms and conditions.

The F16---as much as that plane is loved and revered---cannot be the only 4 + gen fighter for pak air force---.

To make the procurement of the F16 secure---paf needs to get the J10C. Right now---in a love affair---their is no desire by the old lover to please the partner---. For that reason---I say that paf must move away from the new F16's. Pakistan is just laying down---opening its legs wide---you cannot do that with the U S----. You have to create a value---you need to create a desire---you need to feel the temperature.

You need to flirt with the other boy friend as well---. You need to accept some other gifts as well. I mean to say---there has to be a game plan---a strategy---. That is why I say---you can't have these military guys making deals----and just becase Khawaja Asif looks good in a suit----does not mean he can dicker like a pimp.

For 8 F16's----the paf can get close to 24 to 36 J10C with all the gadgets and gizmos.

 

[C130]

But the question is, why are the GCC countries needed anyway? What exactly do the Pakistanis get from the EFT or Rafale that an F-16 block 60++ (for 60% of the cost) doesn't provide???? The answer is nothing.

So why not stick to what works and has been proven for over 4 decades against all kinds of platforms?

JFT block III (and Retro to block II and I), would be able to hold an SU-30 back in the reserve also. Just like a JFT wouldn't want 2-3 BVR's chasing after it, the SU-30 wouldn't want that either .

2-3 capable BVR's with high off bore-sight and range give pretty close to a 100% HTK ratio. The planes themselves now mean less. The avionics, AESA and missile systems mean a lot more due to BVR fights that will take place about 90% of the time.

So the planes themselves are becoming a bit irrelevant due to dog fighting aspects going away. So therefore, the F-16s still provide the best bang for the buck in Pakistan's situation.

I was saying if congress was to block F-16 sales to Pakistan that the EFT would be the next logical step. EFT with Meteors are a league beyond a F-16 armed with AIM-120C missile.


as for JFT blk 2 and 3 vs Su-30 I don't believe BVR would be the great equalizer against the Su-30. assuming the JF-17 sees the Su-30 first get's a shot off without the Su-30 knowing then yeah, but the Su-30 is going to see the JF-17 at all times . the Su-30 is either going to fire it's Astra's or more likely R-27s one a IR guided another RF guided then turn and burn, and the JF-17 is going to be toast or the F-16 if it's the one facing off against the Su-30


the Su-30 is just a better aircraft,

 

[salman-1]

It doesn't seems PAF has a back up war plan to me ,as an unreliable freind USA is not willing to give another 8 planes ,as they might be used against India How PAF planners are working or assuming that USA will not block spare parts if there ever a war broke out with India. Even if the PAF manages to keep up its half fleet operational during war what would be the end result of striking force available to us during war. PAF must buy atleast 36 J-10c ,so if more needed in war China can send planes out of its own fleet for use here.

It doesn't seems PAF has a back up war plan to me ,as an unreliable freind USA is not willing to give another 8 planes ,as they might be used against India How PAF planners are working or assuming that USA will not block spare parts if there ever a war broke out with India. Even if the PAF manages to keep up its half fleet operational during war what would be the end result of striking force available to us during war. PAF must buy atleast 36 J-10c ,so if more needed in war China can send planes out of its own fleet for use here.

 

[Blue Marlin]

if KSA,UAE,Qatar, and Kuwait chip in to buy Pakistan 24 to 48 of them, that's a real possiblity

I've seen threads on here on how desperate KSA is for Pakistan support politically and militarily.

possibility? yes
would pakistan ask for money ? no. why they will want something in return

 

[CriticalThinker02]

There might be options available, but there also might be a price to pay. The bigger the reward, the higher the price- I'm just speculating here, so don't jump down my throat everyone.
What if the U.S. offers to give a squadron of F-22 Raptors to Pakistan on the basis of several conditions: Give up all nuclear weapons, the Raptors will themselves be of an equal deterrent to India. In this way, the fear of nuclear proliferation won't be an issue any more. Nor will the fear remain that someone (or a small group in cahoots with each other) within the Pakistani military establishment smuggle one warhead and pass it on for a personal monetary reward or greater perceived good. The worst that can happen with a jet is that it can be destroyed by militants. It can't fly off without extensive crew support and logistics. So it doesn't pose a "threat to the world" as some circles in the U.S. like to call it.
Secondly, the technology of the Raptor will have to be protected. The U.S. can attach a small team of engineers to the squadron for carrying out sensitive maintenance and repairs themselves. This will safeguard their tech from being stolen. Of course this team won't have free reign in military base in Pakistan, they will be working in tandem and co-ordination with their local counter-parts.
I wonder if this is a price or an option that can be considered to put to rest the thorny issue of Pakistan's nuclear weapons. It would also alleviate the problem of a credible deterrence for Pakistan as well. The F-22 will maintain a technological edge over India for many decades to come. And if along the line the U.S. decides to break the accord, Pakistan can always fly the jets to China to be nitpicked. And there goes the U.S's tech gap. In return China can provide, I don't know, several squadrons of their own 5th generation planes to Pakistan.
It's just an explorative thought.

Hell no, trusting the US what the heck are you crazy?