NOT NEWS BASED - Small thought on China's history, Confucianism and Treason

[Vinod2070]

I am sure outsourcing giant India could cash in here...

Low life, low IQ, moffo bananas seem to fit the bill.

 

[Speeder 2]

Low life, low IQ, moffo bananas seem to fit the bill.

now it's you, not me, who summerised those things, for me it's just about outsourcing tho, well, for the time being...

.

 

[below_freezing]

Has anyone thought about it? If China is to establish a democratic system, how to avoid the same situation and Taiwan? I do not think China can afford the cost of Taiwan's democracy. Taiwan's democratic bring political parties compete, but it definitely is a kind of vicious competition, Taiwan's major interests have been damaged.

Look to Japan and Singapore. The CPC should learn from the LDP and PAP. Allow multiparty but never allow anyone else to win. But in exchange the CPC should slowly reduce its "visibility".

Also think about South Korea, which is the alternative. Kim Young Sam (金泳&#19977 sentenced Roh Tae Woo (卢泰&#24858 to 22 years and Chun Doo Hwan (全斗&#29029 to death. 金泳三 was the equivalent of China's Liu Xiaobo.

 

[S10]

1, you do not know "the typical red guard mindset of extremist"? They have their problems, but they are far better than the traitor. You want to use this excuse to attack other people, first you know what is it?. If criticized the traitor who is "the typical red guard mindset of extremist", in this world there are too many what you call "the typical red guard mindset of extremist", including Canada and the United States. for another excuse, ok?

2, as I said, this is your selfishness. Today is different and the past. The past China is a semi-colonial era, his own is not enough power, with the help of external forces is a common thing. But even so, by today's standards, the behavior of some Chinese leaders is not appropriate, taking into account that time, a number of defects in behavior can not hide their light. we are sure about their achievements, do not deny their shortcomings. sir, that is "defective", you know what mean? if they are at the same time and you, now, never have any idea of ​​selling out the country. Now is a good time than the semi-colonial era. the past is a pit, today is so clean. How many things we had sacrificed in order to exchange the present life? But your point is that China needs into the pit again, just because of your own fantasy and your own life, so you can be a good excuse to peace of mind enjoy your money? Sir, you simply can not compare and the CCP leaders. they do practical things for the future of China, you are to find an excuse for your life. They are completely different to you. The best know it.

3, "you're one of those bring their own dog food fifty cents?", You see, did not say any arguments, and personal attacks only the beginning, this is really "the typical red guard mindset of extremist". So I guarantee that the words are completely personal point of view, if you want to debate, get out your argument, if you can not take arguments, so that I was right.

4, You put your threats, it is freedom of speech, you talk about democracy, or at least should know it. This is the rule, you can do something to me, other people can do the same thing to you, do not break the rules, sir . Moreover, if China's leaders have the same ideas and you rely on selling state make China become stronger, allowing the Chinese people's lives better. such a ridiculous idea, then I do not need to worry about whether I get burned, because the whole of China will be get burned, and I am sure will not be spared, only for own, I also donot agree so ridiculous idea. democracy? No problem, as long as you make a better change in China, the Chinese people's lives better, that is good, but any idea of ​​selling out the country are insulated and those, you need to come up with some real things, just so the Chinese people can accept.

The red guards were a destructive force that were good for nothing, such as yourself. Of course, back in the 1960's they like to brand everyone that oppose them as counter revolutionary. Today they like to brand people traitors. In short, you are the same crap, just from a different decade.

The people have the right to remove their government, even country if their lives are miserable. Sometimes during the course of doing so, foreign aid is enlisted. Li Shimin enlisted the help of the Turks. Sun Yat-sen enlisted the help of the Japanese and communists enlisted the help of Soviet Union. You are being selectively blind to this fact. Countless tyrants in history were overthrown by the people. It is not the responsibility of the people to pledge their loyalty to a country, but a country's responsibility to earn loyalty from their people.

Oh did you say something about I want China to be thrown in chaos? Show me a statement where I said such. Unfortunately, you won't be able to. You lied and made that up, like a manipulated little red guard.

You can say whatever you like. That is entirely your right. However, when you start calling people traitor, be prepared to be treated like an extremist red guard that you are. Don't cry about people insulting you when you start talking smack. Reading your google translated dog bark is quickly becoming a good cheap laugh.

 

[below_freezing]

The red guards were a destructive force that were good for nothing, such as yourself. Of course, back in the 1960's they like to brand everyone that oppose them as counter revolutionary. Today they like to brand people traitors. In short, you are the same crap, just from a different decade.

The people have the right to remove their government, even country if their lives are miserable. Sometimes during the course of doing so, foreign aid is enlisted. Li Shimin enlisted the help of the Turks. Sun Yat-sen enlisted the help of the Japanese and communists enlisted the help of Soviet Union. You are being selectively blind to this fact. Countless tyrants in history were overthrown by the people. It is not the responsibility of the people to pledge their loyalty to a country, but a country's responsibility to earn loyalty from their people.

Oh did you say something about I want China to be thrown in chaos? Show me a statement where I said such. Unfortunately, you won't be able to. You lied and made that up, like a manipulated little red guard.

You can say whatever you like. That is entirely your right. However, when you start calling people traitor, be prepared to be treated like an extremist red guard that you are. Don't cry about people insulting you when you start talking smack. Reading your google translated dog bark is quickly becoming a good cheap laugh.

No, the communists did not enlist the help of the Soviet Union. The KMT enlisted the help of both the Soviets and the United States. KMT forces were organized on Soviet lines, Chiang Ching Kuo was educated in the Soviet Union, served in the Red Army, married a Russian and was a Leninist.

You're the typical example of why treason is deeply ingrained into Chinese culture. Enlisting foreign help to overthrow your own government is indeed treason.

 

[S10]

The KMT was closer to the USSR than the CPC. The CPC was hated by both USSR and USA at the start. Only after the CPC started winning did the Soviets help them.

KMT was so close to the USSR that they trained their soldiers based on the Soviet model, signed the Sino-Soviet Treaty of Friendship, and Chiang Ching Kuo was educated in the Soviet Union and married a Russian.

Do you deny that the communists accepted aid from Soviet Union? Then according to some of you here, they are traitors for inviting foreign involvement in a civil war. Do they get a free pass? Does Sun Yat-sen get a free pass when he took money from the Japanese to overthrow Qing?

 

[huzihaidao12]

The red guards were a destructive force that were good for nothing, such as yourself. Of course, back in the 1960's they like to brand everyone that oppose them as counter revolutionary. Today they like to brand people traitors. In short, you are the same crap, just from a different decade.

The people have the right to remove their government, even country if their lives are miserable. Sometimes during the course of doing so, foreign aid is enlisted. Li Shimin enlisted the help of the Turks. Sun Yat-sen enlisted the help of the Japanese and communists enlisted the help of Soviet Union. You are being selectively blind to this fact. Countless tyrants in history were overthrown by the people. It is not the responsibility of the people to pledge their loyalty to a country, but a country's responsibility to earn loyalty from their people.

Oh did you say something about I want China to be thrown in chaos? Show me a statement where I said such. Unfortunately, you won't be able to. You lied and made that up, like a manipulated little red guard.

You can say whatever you like. That is entirely your right. However, when you start calling people traitor, be prepared to be treated like an extremist red guard that you are. Don't cry about people insulting you when you start talking smack. Reading your google translated dog bark is quickly becoming a good cheap laugh.

1, I said the red guards is not a destructive force? They are destructive force, however, They quickly disappeared, because the chaos and destruction did not get popular support. they did not receive foreign support, this confusion will soon disappear. Today, most country people will be attacked traitor, whatever country, If someone attacks traitor are the red guards? it would be too many people, sir, you know, PDF is a patriotic Forum, Chinese, Pakistanis, Indians, Turks, and even the Americans, all people who love their country, everyone criticized traitor, you are strange for the PDF? PDF is a forum for the red guards? you are a special case, sir, not the PDF most members .


2, you see, I can not let you look at a hypothetical future, but I can make you look at history, such as the Soviet Union and Russia to see whether there is a big mess? You deny? Or Iraq, you want to see what happened? Afghanistan and Libya ? you want to see what? what color revolution to those countries? or you can give me a good example? any one example in the last 20 years, can you give me? I said to depend on any foreign only to chaos in today's International. No one will give you a free lunch, they support you, definitely want more from you, do you think what the West wants from you, they give the people of China's powerful and wealthy (the two are necessarily linked)? It is not in their interests. And, sir, when you can not provide the things they want, even you will lose value to them, you will be abandoned by them did not hesitate, they will find other useful people. worse is that this is a time that a solid power still did not produce ,confident that all compete with each other.And you, if you do not want to be abandoned by them, but to accept their terms. sir, if now you still cherish the ideal of good , you think it is good for China to use them, ok, I can trust you. but at that time, you will not be much choice but to accept the conditions of treason, which is "人在江湖身不由己" You should be able to know what it means, I will not say more.

3 China's history, in fact, you took a good note, if you know Chinese history will know that almost all the revolutionary and progressive forces were eventually killed by foreign countries. The only successful is the CCP, they got least help from foreign countries, they almost did not get any foreign aid since the Long March, they have to discover the real key issue for China, they rely on their own to obtain support of the people. Again, past China is a cesspool, everyone in it, not avoid some not clean. But today, you're not cesspool, need to compare and cesspool? If you really want to do something for the Chinese people, you not only do not need to enter cesspool, or even better make your own changes . to cut off foreign support, to make a clear and frank declaration to the Chinese people, you can not go to gain support from the Chinese people? If you can not be supported, that is your problem. to use external forces, will not increase the support.

 

[huzihaidao12]

中国的当代自由主义的“启蒙运动”已经彻底失败

http://www.360doc.com/content/08/0421/16/24223_1206102.shtml

中国的当代自由主义的“启蒙运动”已经彻底失败

前几年，我就意识到当代中国的启蒙运动已经失败，中国的年轻一代正在走向启蒙价值的反面。当时，有许多人不同意我的观点。现在，几年过去了，我发现自己的观点受到广泛的证实。

国内的情况大家都知道。自由主义者成了少数派，左翼势力茁壮成长。

国外的情况呢？基本与国内类似。海外民主人士对海外华人几乎毫无影响，其言论常常引起当地华人的不满乃至反感。包括知识分子在内的海外华人唯恐避之不及。

在英国、美国、韩国，年轻的留学生根本没有兴趣听你讲民主理念，他们在课堂上理直气壮地与持自由主义理念的西方教授们辩论。国内外的种种迹象都证明：中国的当代启蒙运动已经彻底失败，自由主义者必须正视现实。

中国当代启蒙运动为什么失败？这是值得我们深思的问题。我想一个重要的原因是启蒙主义者没有解决好民主主义、民族主义、民生主义的关系问题。个别自由主义者固执地强调抽象的普世价值，忽略了中华民族的深层心理（如他们对被占领的恐怖记忆），因而实际上使启蒙过程变成了启蒙者的自我孤立的过程。

怎么办？承认失败？放弃启蒙，代之以耐心的持续的对话？改变策略和路向？我不知道。或许，我们都不知道。


translation:

国内的情况大家都知道。自由主义者成了少数派，左翼势力茁壮成长。

国外的情况呢？基本与国内类似。海外民主人士对海外华人几乎毫无影响，其言论常常引起当地华人的不满乃至反感。包括知识分子在内的海外华人唯恐避之不及。

中国当代启蒙运动为什么失败？这是值得我们深思的问题。我想一个重要的原因是启蒙主义者没有解决好民主主义、民族主义、民生主义的关系问题


We all know the domestic situation. Liberals have become the minority, left-wing forces to grow.

Foreign situation? Basic similar and domestic. Democrats abroad almost no impact on the overseas Chinese, their remarks often caused dissatisfaction and even resentment by local Chinese. Including intellectuals, overseas Chinese shun.

Why Contemporary Enlightenment fail? This is worth pondering. I believe an important reason is that Enlightenment does not resolve the relationship between democracy, nationalism, the People's Livelihood.





Even you admit your own are the minority, even a big offensive, and why? because of China's national psychology is not to escape, you can find all the excuses to attack other people, such as the red guards, it is really so much the redguards? And even your own not enough value you own philosophy, such as freedom of speech, which is the Chinese people can accept. Do you have what? CCP even do better than you, what you have? This is why you are the minority. When will the review own? In fact, Chinese people welcome a voice of opposition, but some things can not be avoided, there's another article, and your article.

 

[below_freezing]

Do you deny that the communists accepted aid from Soviet Union? Then according to some of you here, they are traitors for inviting foreign involvement in a civil war. Do they get a free pass? Does Sun Yat-sen get a free pass when he took money from the Japanese to overthrow Qing?

Before the establishment of the PRC, the KMT took more Soviet aid. Your argument has no ground. If the Soviets helped both sides then it is just doing business.

 

[below_freezing]

中国的当代自由主义的“启蒙运动”已经彻底失败

http://www.360doc.com/content/08/0421/16/24223_1206102.shtml

中国的当代自由主义的“启蒙运动”已经彻底失败

前几年，我就意识到当代中国的启蒙运动已经失败，中国的年轻一代正在走向启蒙价值的反面。当时，有许多人不同意我的观点。现在，几年过去了，我发现自己的观点受到广泛的证实。

国内的情况大家都知道。自由主义者成了少数派，左翼势力茁壮成长。

国外的情况呢？基本与国内类似。海外民主人士对海外华人几乎毫无影响，其言论常常引起当地华人的不满乃至反感。包括知识分子在内的海外华人唯恐避之不及。

在英国、美国、韩国，年轻的留学生根本没有兴趣听你讲民主理念，他们在课堂上理直气壮地与持自由主义理念的西方教授们辩论。国内外的种种迹象都证明：中国的当代启蒙运动已经彻底失败，自由主义者必须正视现实。

中国当代启蒙运动为什么失败？这是值得我们深思的问题。我想一个重要的原因是启蒙主义者没有解决好民主主义、民族主义、民生主义的关系问题。个别自由主义者固执地强调抽象的普世价值，忽略了中华民族的深层心理（如他们对被占领的恐怖记忆），因而实际上使启蒙过程变成了启蒙者的自我孤立的过程。

怎么办？承认失败？放弃启蒙，代之以耐心的持续的对话？改变策略和路向？我不知道。或许，我们都不知道。


translation:

国内的情况大家都知道。自由主义者成了少数派，左翼势力茁壮成长。

国外的情况呢？基本与国内类似。海外民主人士对海外华人几乎毫无影响，其言论常常引起当地华人的不满乃至反感。包括知识分子在内的海外华人唯恐避之不及。

中国当代启蒙运动为什么失败？这是值得我们深思的问题。我想一个重要的原因是启蒙主义者没有解决好民主主义、民族主义、民生主义的关系问题


We all know the domestic situation. Liberals have become the minority, left-wing forces to grow.

Foreign situation? Basic similar and domestic. Democrats abroad almost no impact on the overseas Chinese, their remarks often caused dissatisfaction and even resentment by local Chinese. Including intellectuals, overseas Chinese shun.

Why Contemporary Enlightenment fail? This is worth pondering. I believe an important reason is that Enlightenment does not resolve the relationship between democracy, nationalism, the People's Livelihood.





Even you admit your own are the minority, even a big offensive, and why? because of China's national psychology is not to escape, you can find all the excuses to attack other people, such as the red guards, the red is really so much guards? even your own not enough value you own philosophy, such as freedom of speech, which is the Chinese people can accept. Do you have what? CCP even do better than you, what you have ? This is why you are the minority . When will the review own? In fact, Chinese people welcome a voice of opposition, but some things can not be avoided, there's another article, and your article.

其实，问题不在自由主义运动本身，而在于自由主义运动和米日军政机构千丝万缕的联系。同时，中国也有太多伪自由主义者借用“民主”的外衣为外国人谋取利益的“民主斗士”。刘晓波就是这两种问题的典范。他接受过米国政府机构HERITAGE FOUNDATION的30万米元，犯了第一种错误。第二，他在攻击中国政府的同时往往会过渡到攻击中国人和中国文化，引起绝大多数人的反感。

还有，我觉得这篇文章存在基本的概念错误。民主与左派，右派毫无关系。世界上有很多左派的民主政府，同样有很多右派的专制政府，甚至独裁政府。50-70年代的韩国就是典型的右派独裁政府，70-80年代的韩国算专制政府，虽然如今它们已经算“民主”了但仍然保留了许多专制政府的特征。为什么韩国可以成功从独裁跨度到专制，然后再跨度到“民主”呢？这种经验值得党国学习。

 

[huzihaidao12]

Before the establishment of the PRC, the KMT took more Soviet aid. Your argument has no ground. If the Soviets helped both sides then it is just doing business.

In fact, almost all those reforms in China by foreign-funded, all have caused more confusion and failures, more long-term and continuous suffering to Chinese people. The only success is that CCP, almost did not get any major Size of foreign aid after the Long March, CCP to gain support from the people, so CCP success, you want to oppose the CCP, at least do the same thing, if not more. In fact, now is not the colonial era, no one wants to stoop, Will fail because nationalism has awakened. with a hat called the "Red Guards", only allow yourself to avoid something, make you more isolated. Chinese liberalism and democracy were to face the problem, that is the case difficulties?

 

[below_freezing]

In fact, almost In fact, almost all those reforms in China by foreign-funded, all have caused more confusion and failures, more long-term and continuous suffering to Chinese people. The only success is that CCP, almost did not get any major Size of foreign aid after the Long March, CCP to gain support from the people, so CCP success, you want to oppose the CCP, at least do the same thing, if not more. In fact, now is not the colonial era, no one wants to stoop, Will fail because nationalism has awakened. with a hat called the "Red Guards", only allow yourself to avoid something, make you more isolated. Chinese liberalism and democracy were to face the problem, that is the case Difficulties?

请看我刚才写的回复；中国的民主运动基本全部上被米日军政机构渗透了，因此它们不可能得到民心。

 

[huzihaidao12]

其实，问题不在自由主义运动本身，而在于自由主义运动和米日军政机构千丝万缕的联系。同时，中国也有太多伪自由主义者借用“民主”的外衣为外国人谋取利益的“民主斗士”。刘晓波就是这两种问题的典范。他接受过米国政府机构HERITAGE FOUNDATION的30万米元，犯了第一种错误。第二，他在攻击中国政府的同时往往会过渡到攻击中国人和中国文化，引起绝大多数人的反感。

还有，我觉得这篇文章存在基本的概念错误。民主与左派，右派毫无关系。世界上有很多左派的民主政府，同样有很多右派的专制政府，甚至独裁政府。50-70年代的韩国就是典型的右派独裁政府，70-80年代的韩国算专制政府，虽然如今它们已经算“民主”了但仍然保留了许多专制政府的特征。为什么韩国可以成功从独裁跨度到专制，然后再跨度到“民主”呢？这种经验值得党国学习。

同意你说的,不过刘晓波以前还有个时代的原因,河汤的时代是一个普遍失去信仰,失去信心的时代,不能说没有时代的原因,但是现在自由主义和民主主义不能跟随时代的进步,心态也有问题,已经从批判他但希望他更好,变成他是坏的他只能是坏的,如果他是好的我们的存在将没有那么重要的意义,如此不管怎样他也是坏的,所以现在的评判已经感觉变调了,早前的南方系也能有所称道,现在?为了反对而反对.而且现在民众的视野和经验已经非常丰富了,网络就更加如此,没那么容易被你忽悠,忽悠不成功被识破就会变成反感和警惕.中国的反对派到底如何存在,这是一个问题,现在网络一见南方系就反,虽然有原因,但是不是最良好的对中国社会.我个人观点.

 

[huzihaidao12]

国民党也是个白痴,这么纠结过去的历史,这到好,明明CCP已经做了好的掩盖,你讨论越多黑暗暴露的越多,民众就在担心现在的社会会堕落到国民党时期,你去宣扬他,这不找钉子碰,何况历史你又真的不干净,说他不干净已经是好的了,那就个什么社会,最好的方法不是纠结而是发个罪己诏,你还去故意纠结,就是一个白痴.

国民党想成为反对党,有一些好东西.

一坚定的维护中国统一,这就不用说原因了,但是你这么不清不楚的样子,也就别想有啥大陆人对你有啥好感了,当然肯定不会那么反感象绿营.

二和平让权,即使失败也和平让权,这能减少中国民众的担忧对于混乱,这就象老江能和平让权,不至于让中国变成一个独裁政权而是巩固了集体领导.这分可不能说不多.那些白痴就知道宣传国民党当年做了"好事"对中国,他们真的了解大陆人的心理?做梦.

三有很好的管理经验,比如台湾的基层服务体系就非常好,虽然底子是日本人打下的,到是如果能更贴心的对大陆介绍些基层,老百姓最能感同身受的东西,那又是大的加分.国民党能真的了解基层大陆人的想法?又是做梦.

 

[HongWu]

其实，任何嫌中国穷的中国人都是汉奸。嫌中国穷就是拜金主义。对拜金的人，除了自己和家族，一切其他的都是假的。这种人有可能不出卖中国的利益吗？一定是等着好机会，顺便赚一把钱吧。

个人认为，中国需要的是一段强者独裁，类似毛主席的人物，才能把一盘散沙，变成一个钢铁的拳头。

中国人要学会自豪，一定要抛弃其包容性的思想。有自豪的民族，一定想办法排斥不够优秀的异类，讲究“小而精”。太包容的名族，缺乏排他性，只会失去凝聚力，变成一盘散沙。

总之，中国一定要走向日本二十世纪初的思想道路，利用消灭别的民族的手段来振兴自己民族的团结心，要不然从精神上来讲中国还是东亚病夫。