No more death penalty for rapists in State of new Madina

[Jungibaaz]

Yeah tbh, i'm not a fan of the hanging being public. It could be private and aired on the News with a warning before hand - if they want to have the impact.

It seems obvious to that the biggest issues this latest case has unearthed include: societal attitudes towards women, an unsafe environment for weaker people (kids and women), general lawlessness, and there’s also something to be said about what drives these creatures to commit sexual crimes. The secondary issues, that are no less important are about accountability and enforcement of the law. These crimes are underreported, perhaps under-prosecuted. That is 99% of the problem in my eyes. Whether we have public executions, castration, hanging in private or death by firing squad is all moot and a waste of time IMO.

It’s akin to a bunch of starving peasants dying of hunger indulging in argument over which type of buffet or banquet they should have should they happen upon the chance, instead of trying to deal with their famished state.

First work out how to catch and prosecute such people, change societal attitudes, and make the country safe. Then you can quibble and nitpick about what punishment best soothes your anger, but address the problem first!

 

[truthfollower]

nice thanks to **** people of Pakistan love public executions and don't know at what they will stop.
and here we are wondering why people in Pakistani society are extreme i.e terrorism, rapes of children and women

change societal attitudes,

start from stopping brain washing of people from childhood with false stories of greatness from old culture?

 

[313ghazi]

It seems obvious to that the biggest issues this latest case has unearthed include: societal attitudes towards women, an unsafe environment for weaker people (kids and women), general lawlessness, and there’s also something to be said about what drives these creatures to commit sexual crimes. The secondary issues, that are no less important are about accountability and enforcement of the law. These crimes are underreported, perhaps under-prosecuted. That is 99% of the problem in my eyes. Whether we have public executions, castration, hanging in private or death by firing squad is all moot and a waste of time IMO.

It’s akin to a bunch of starving peasants dying of hunger indulging in argument over which type of buffet or banquet they should have should they happen upon the chance, instead of trying to deal with their famished state.

First work out how to catch and prosecute such people, change societal attitudes, and make the country safe. Then you can quibble and nitpick about what punishment best soothes your anger, but address the problem first!

I don't think one should prohibit the other. If anything harsh punishments can help highlight the problem and make it a talking point. The problem is when we fixate on these things and not the underlying attitude as you mentioned.

Rape won't go away with gruesome punishment. It'll go away with consistent gruesome punishment, regular prosecution of rapists and a culture that doesn't support the subjugation of women.

 

[Jungibaaz]

I don't think one should prohibit the other. If anything harsh punishments can help highlight the problem and make it a talking point. The problem is when we fixate on these things and not the underlying attitude as you mentioned.

Rape won't go away with gruesome punishment. It'll go away with consistent gruesome punishment, regular prosecution of rapists and a culture that doesn't support the subjugation of women.

I agree fully. I just get frustrated when calls for public hanging, or some other creatively gruesome punishment is devised and proposed. In that response, we're not thinking straight and dealing with deeper issues, only soothing our anger. And when politicians engage in this sort of response, it's even worse, they are grandstanding and simultaneously cloaking their own collective ineptness of those issues that need to be addressed in an attempt to obfuscate and placate. I'm fine with a death penalty and chemical castration in cases like these, but not at the cost of actual other steps, in that we agree!

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

The issue here is Zina (consentual) vs Zina (bil Jabr involving consent of one partner).

Zina:
There is no disagreement on the requirement of 4 witnesses to prove zina between consenting couple. This makes proving the crime extremely difficult, unless the couple chooses to commit it in front of public, or uploads the video on internet (in current times). The reason to make proving zina so difficult is that Allah wants to give His creation plenty of chances to repent for a sin he/ she committed privately. (Some hadiths also suggest that even Prophet (PBUH) gave ample chances to someone to not disclose who wanted to confess).

Zina bil Jabr:
In one of the cases, Federal Shariat Court has already concluded that rape is not ordinary Zina, but it's a form of Fasad fil Ardh/ Hirabah.

Why it's considered Hirabah, because according to one tradition, four witnesses were not required. Check this out:

When a woman went out for prayer at dawn, a man attacked her on the way and raped her. She shouted but the rapist escaped. When another man came by, she complained: “That man did such and such to me.” And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: “That man did such and such to me.” They went and seized the man whom they thought had raped her and brought him to her. She said: “Yes, this is the man.” Then they brought him to the Messenger of God. When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had raped her stood up and said: “Messenger of God, I am the man who did it to her.” He (the Prophet) said to her: “Go away, for God has forgiven you.” But he told the man some good words [Abū Dāwūd said: meaning the man who was seized], and of the man who had had intercourse with her, he said: “Stone him to death.”

Now if you look at the above report, there are few things which are quite clear when Prophet (PBUH) awarded stonning sentence (and was about to award a sentence to the first accused):

1 - No four witnesses were required and woman's statement was considered true
2 - Circumstantial evidence was accepted (when other men went towards the way where the victim pointed out, they found a man who clearly resembled the actual culprit otherwise the woman wouldn't have confused the accused with the culprit)
3 - It is not mentioned, but anyone can easily ascertain that the first accused's clarification wasn't taken into consideration. It is beyond imagination that a person who didn't even commit the crime wouldn't have said anything in his defence.
4 - The accused (and later the culprit) was stonned.
5 - The woman was pardoned and Qadhaf wasn't applied to her on wrong testimony that could have resulted in the death of an innocent.

In current times, it is very difficult to imagine that a rape will not carry a circumstantial evidence. For example, a lady accuses a man that he raped her in his home is very difficult to accept. Circumstantial evidence suggests that she went to his house (who is na Mahram in the first place) and spent time alone with him. This gives a hint that she willingly went to his house. Similarly, she is found in a hotel room, of course she has a lot to answer for. If she is raped inside her own home, then of course someone has broken into her house when she was alone, didn't open the door by herself. A plenty of circumstantial evidences can be collected.

The rape cases that are being reported in Pakistan, majority have plenty of evidence to suggest that 4 witness requirement doesn't apply. For example, in the current case of motorway, what is the reason to not accept woman's testimony? She was on her way, her car broken down, evidence suggested that she called police for help. She even called her relatives.. her children were with her, she and her children were found with severe wounds.. What is the reason that her testimony should be rejected just on the basis of the requirement of 4 witnesses when the above tradition clearly proves otherwise?

In other cases, a lady was returning from a marriage ceremony.. or someone was inside her home with her father and other family members while she is raped.. or someone is found dead after being raped.. these are clear examples of what's going on.. Circumstances clear many doubts and in the cases of rapes currently occuring, there's plenty of evidence to suggest that crimes have happened that do not come under ordinary zina.

Great post brother. Everyone should read this.

It seems obvious to that the biggest issues this latest case has unearthed include: societal attitudes towards women, an unsafe environment for weaker people (kids and women), general lawlessness, and there’s also something to be said about what drives these creatures to commit sexual crimes. The secondary issues, that are no less important are about accountability and enforcement of the law. These crimes are underreported, perhaps under-prosecuted. That is 99% of the problem in my eyes. Whether we have public executions, castration, hanging in private or death by firing squad is all moot and a waste of time IMO.

It’s akin to a bunch of starving peasants dying of hunger indulging in argument over which type of buffet or banquet they should have should they happen upon the chance, instead of trying to deal with their famished state.

First work out how to catch and prosecute such people, change societal attitudes, and make the country safe. Then you can quibble and nitpick about what punishment best soothes your anger, but address the problem first!

I disagree. We should establish the law which majority of our people want, in this case it is execution by stoning or hanging for proven rapists.

Once the law and punishment is established, the first step, it will be up to the people of Pakistan to hold the police and courts responsible.

Then we can work on the enforcement of the law and shame/name any absconders.

If US, EU do not eant to invest, forget them. That investment is always a question mark anyway. It should not influence our ability to protect and get just for our women and children.

I rather we be poor and protect our people, than to be wealthy and have our hands tied.

 

[shah_123]

ok, sir, i believe i made it very clear that tazir cannot be harsher punishment then hadood, it is pretty straightforward, dont know why you dont get it..

also its pretty amazing that you think death penalty is equal in severity to chemical castration in repeated offenders..

pakistan everyone looks at stuff with poltics, it always amazed me how the country has survived for so long

Sir, all I am trying to say is that, if the crime doesn't fall under hudud, the same can be tried under tazir and the punishment can also be death ---- like say espionage on behalf of enemy of Muslim state.

There's no ambiguity in the recent rape incident, this is case of fasad fil ardh. -- even if the culprits get away with rape allegations, highway robbery in enough to punish them publicly.

 

[Jungibaaz]

I disagree. We should establish the law which majority of our people want, in this case it is execution by stoning or hanging for proven rapists.

Once the law and punishment is established, the first step, it will be up to the people of Pakistan to hold the police and courts responsible.

Then we can work on the enforcement of the law and shame/name any absconders.

If US, EU do not eant to invest, forget them. That investment is always a question mark anyway. It should not influence our ability to protect and get just for our women and children.

I rather we be poor and protect our people, than to be wealthy and have our hands tied.

That's fine, I can accept that if the majority want to see something, and if it can be done, it should be. I agree with that principle as a democrat.

However, the parts I've highlighted in bold I want you to address within your own internal argument and logic. The first part in bold, my point is that the biggest miscarriage of justice is there regardless of what the punishment is. What use is debating a punishment when due process and law enforcement won't bring perpetrators to the defendant's dock, ready to face a courtroom and ideally; a jury of peers? In simple words, will changing the punishment to stoning and public hanging increase conviction rates? Or is my contention correct in saying that conviction and punishment style are independent areas that each need their own consideration?

Secondly, what evidence is there that stoning and public hanging makes us and our women/children safer? I can tell you, my mother, daughter, wife, sister are much safer here in the UK, where we don't even have a death penalty. They're safer than that brave soul was who was raped in Pakistan, a country that has a death penalty and that now is discussing all sorts of creating punishments in an attempt to deal with deep underlying issues.

To conclude, if you want public hanging, fine. That's fine, just try to understand WHY you want it, and what it might cost you. Why you want it is either: it is in line with your religious or other ideology, and secondly to soothe anger and demand for retribution. What it will cost you is as discussed earlier. And you must acknowledge that there is no evidence that our women will be safer as a result or rapists will be deterred as a result of public punishment.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

That's fine, I can accept that if the majority want to see something, and if it can be done, it should be. I agree with that principle as a democrat.

However, the parts I've highlighted in bold I want you to address within your own internal argument and logic. The first part in bold, my point is that the biggest miscarriage of justice is there regardless of what the punishment is. What use is debating a punishment when due process and law enforcement won't bring perpetrators to the defendant's dock, ready to face a courtroom and jury of peers? In simple words, will changing the punishment to stoning and public hanging increase conviction rates? Or is my contention correct in saying that conviction and punishment style are independent areas that each need their own consideration?

Secondly, what evidence is there that stoning and public hanging makes us and our women/children safer? I can tell you, my mother, daughter, wife, sister are much safer here in the UK, where we don't even have a death penalty than that brave soul was who was raped in Pakistan, a country that has a death penalty and that now is discussing all sorts of creating punishments in an attempt to deal with deep underlying issues.

To conclude, if you want public hanging, fine. That's fine, just know why you want it, and what it might cost you. Why you want it is either: it is in line with your religious or other ideology, and secondly to soothe anger and demand for retribution. What it will cost you is as discussed earlier. And you must acknowledge that there is no evidence that our women will be safer as a result or rapists will be deterred as a result of public punishment.

Liberal West has a different basis than Islamic civilization.

Maybe UK is better than Pakistan concerning rape, I don't know. However definitely US is not. Rape is an epidemic here, it is just only local media sometimes reports it. It is so common that we have cases that do not get covered by media daily. Usually the culprit is close by or even related to the victim.

The same rapist who rapes once usually comes back after around 15 years of jail time to rape again. They get added to a national database of sex offenders. That is all.

Many of these criminals have grown up abused themselves or in stressful family circumstances.

Many of the victims are forced into silence by the perpetrators.

US is not some kind of rape-free Heaven. It is a major problem, esp in university towns and parks.

 

[Hiraa]

Sara waqt “Islami mulk hai Islami mulk hai” karte rehte hain. But laws islami naheen lagne.

 

[313ghazi]

I agree fully. I just get frustrated when calls for public hanging, or some other creatively gruesome punishment is devised and proposed. In that response, we're not thinking straight and dealing with deeper issues, only soothing our anger. And when politicians engage in this sort of response, it's even worse, they are grandstanding and simultaneously cloaking their own collective ineptness of those issues that need to be addressed in an attempt to obfuscate and placate. I'm fine with a death penalty and chemical castration in cases like these, but not at the cost of actual other steps, in that we agree!

It's a political quick win. Populist politics is on the rise. Telling people the truth won't help in the polls. Nobody wants to hear about how the judicary is inefficient at best and outright corrupt at worst. Nobody wants to hear how a lot of crimes likely happen with police collusion and how the mentality of menfolk in the country will likely bias any investigation against the female victim.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Liberal West has a different basis than Islamic civilization.

Maybe UK is better than Pakistan concerning rape, I don't know. However definitely US is not. Rape is an epidemic here, it is just only local media sometimes reports it. It is so common that we have cases that do not get covered by media daily. Usually the culprit is close by or even related to the victim.

The same rapist who rapes once usually comes back after around 15 years of jail time to rape again. They get added to a national database of sex offenders. That is all.

Many of these criminals have grown up abused themselves or in stressful family circumstances.

Many of the victims are forced into silence by the perpetrators.

US is not some kind of rape-free Heaven. It is a major problem, esp in university towns and parks.

I agree with you here actually, with repeat offenders there's no question that a permanent solution is needed, whether that's life imprisonment, castration, death penalty, or combinations of each. Although I gave the example of the UK, I can't continence lenient sentencing in some cases, one has to imagine if this happened with a relative, would I be okay if the judge handed a 10-15 year sentence and called it a day? Certainly not.

But I think there are more important topics that need addressing than the end punishment, people are just venting anger when suggesting public hangings, I don't think it does anything to address the underlying issues.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

I agree with you here actually, with repeat offenders there's no question that a permanent solution is needed, whether that's life imprisonment, castration, death penalty, or combinations of each. Although I gave the example of the UK, I can't continence lenient sentencing in some cases, one has to imagine if this happened with a relative, would I be okay if the judge handed a 10-15 year sentence and called it a day? Certainly not.

But I think there are more important topics that need addressing than the end punishment, people are just venting anger when suggesting public hangings, I don't think it does anything to address the underlying issues.

I have been thinking alot about what you and @313ghazi are saying recently. We need a whole new system because the current one has failed utterly.

We are still living with a bastardized colonial nizam that was made to create a servile class of snakes to suck the life out of the rest of society.

Now it is time for radical change. If Imran Khan cannot deliever these changes then we have only one choice (which IK has alluded to in the past) and that is military dictatorship.

Sad to say, but in a society as corrupt as Pakistan, this is the only way to fix these issues. Ofcourse we need some leader who himself is willing to change the entire landscape. We need land reforms, complete overhaul of the judiciary, and full vetting of police.

I remember Imran Khan talking about this scenario before if N and PPP continue to be hurdles towards Pakistan's development. Then maybe we can seize the wealth and assets of these criminals and bosses to help Pakistan's transition.

We may need a technocratic government headed by the military. Maybe form a council of religious leaders from all sects, esp Sunni and Shia scholars, to bring reconciliation and religious sanctions to the state.

For judiciary, establishment of cheap, quick, and accessible local courts (jirga courts and Qazi.) Laws administered by Quran, Ahadith, and state laws

For police, making them apolitical like KP and oversight by other agencies, such as judiciary, army, etc. Eventually body cams, car cams,and strict rules of engagement.

Ofcourse, in this scenario, you can forget Western investment, as they have always strived to keep our military out of politics. Probably we will be hit by FATF and further sanctions as well, but we may be hit anyway regardless in the future as West goes all in with India against China.

 

[El Sidd]

Populist politics is on the rise

Not in Pakistan. It is dying a death of 1000 cuts
Populism failed in Pakistan. It is a hallmark of a politically mature nation that it did not invest itself in PTI antics.

 

[shah_123]

Mufti Taqi Usmani on death penalty for rapists:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=822524805155374

@ziaulislam

 

[Nasr]

It seems like the najdi scum are trying to take Arabia and our Arab brothers back to the time before Islam. The Prophet Muhammad Alaihi Salaat-u-Wassalam warned the Arabs about this. I hope and pray that they listen. I also hope and pray that Muslims around the world, listen to our beloved Prophet Muhammad Alaihi Salaat-u-Wassalam.