No fighters for pakistan: Russia

[Mystery]

trust me bhai jaan if PAF "really WANTS " Su35 and is ready to pay for it in cash there is no reason why russia would say no but there are three problems

1. your pilots have endurence level of couple of hours in fighter jets deu to single engine and medium feul requirement while twin engine heavies with big feul tank like flankers have endurence of 3-5"su27" hours going upto 6-8"su-35" and pilots have to start training on that level and all that takes loads of money and time and will take at least a decade to make a nee doctroine based around them even if you order them tommorow ... ask @MastanKhan or @gambit about it

2.mantainence of russian fighter jets is at least 2X times more as compared to american or french fighters which becomes twice when its a twin engine meaning a su35 would approx nead at least 4 times more mantainence time than a F16

3.cost or weapons and allied systems apart from fly away +mantinence and training dont forget you have to buy complete set of weapons package and allied products like tooling and engine aids and PODS which all costs money

all in all aif PAF decides to buy say 54 Su35 with spares and training and maintainece aides /pakage and weapons pakage it will still cost around 150 millon as you have to install a whole infra for it

Pakistani F-16 and Mirage Jets have IFR since many years so please don't worry about PAF pilots endurance and after reading your post i realize how shallow and biased your opinion is.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Pakistani F-16 and Mirage Jets have IFR since many years so please don't worry about PAF pilots endurance and after reading your post i realize how shallow and biased your opinion is.

well if you fly from gilgit to gawadar you will take at least two hours even in a fighter jet and need a IFR thats not the point im talking about bieng ever ready and ther are many parameters thats the main reason we have two pilots in MKI to share the load but thats a differnt story ask @MastanKhan he can explain you better im not a airforce guy

and maam you thnk my opinon is baised cause you see my flags but think about my post from logik of a air force pilot or a planner and the tell me am i wrong

 

[Mystery]

im not a airforce guy

Then keep your mouth shut or limit your biased and shallow knowledge to yourself rather than posting lengthy propaganda based assumptions.

 

[barbarosa]

trust me bhai jaan if PAF "really WANTS " Su35 and is ready to pay for it in cash there is no reason why russia would say no but there are three problems

1. your pilots have endurence level of couple of hours in fighter jets deu to single engine and medium feul requirement while twin engine heavies with big feul tank like flankers have endurence of 3-5"su27" hours going upto 6-8"su-35" and pilots have to start training on that level and all that takes loads of money and time and will take at least a decade to make a nee doctroine based around them even if you order them tommorow ... ask @MastanKhan or @gambit about it

2.mantainence of russian fighter jets is at least 2X times more as compared to american or french fighters which becomes twice when its a twin engine meaning a su35 would approx nead at least 4 times more mantainence time than a F16

3.cost or weapons and allied systems apart from fly away +mantinence and training dont forget you have to buy complete set of weapons package and allied products like tooling and engine aids and PODS which all costs money

all in all aif PAF decides to buy say 54 Su35 with spares and training and maintainece aides /pakage and weapons pakage it will still cost around 150 millon as you have to install a whole infra for it

You are right, Air force will face to these problems.

 

[The Eagle]

Was there any request for the SUs by PAF except the media hype that is countered through a media statement.

It clearly stats as no contract means there was nothing to refuse in first place. We have nothing official in this subject that whether PAF was looking for SUs from Russia so it needs time to be proven based upon official grounds.

 

[Mystery]

Was there any request for the SUs by PAF except the media hype that is countered through a media statement.

It clearly stats as no contract means there was nothing to refuse in first place. We have nothing official in this subject that whether PAF was looking for SUs from Russia so it needs time to be proven based upon official grounds.

Agrees with you never heard anything like PAF wanted to induct Russian jets from official source of PAF, Only P.A needs some gunships which I believe Russia is no more willing to provide since stacks are high and value of the contract is lower only 4 required initially by P.A but when it comes to big contract like JF-17 Russia happily ignores Indian pleas and supplied around 500 engines and parts. I believe any big demand from Pakistan like 2 or 3 squadron of any Russian jet would not be turned down. But question is PAF need that jets or not since after sale spare supplies are very poor and sub standard.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

whether PAF was looking for SUs from Russia

Yes it was. Don't you know PAF is air version of the philatelist. It loves to go around the world collecting differant fighters. It already has fighters from :-

US
Frence
China

And now needs to have few Russian fighters so that servicing, maintenance and training support becomes a nightmare. On the other hand wise counsel might be to hold back from buying any more fighters until Chinese aviation matures and functional upgrade to next generation is possible - as opposed to getting more or very similar of what PAF already has.

 

[The Eagle]

Yes it was. Don't you know PAF is air version of the philatelist. It loves to go around the world collecting differant fighters. It already has fighters from :-

US
Frence
China

And now needs to the need to have few Russian fighters so that servicing, maintenance and training support becomes a nightmare. On the other hand wise counsel might be to hold back from buying any more fighters until Chinese aviation matures and functional upgrade to next generation is possible - as opposed to getting more or very similar of what PAF already has.

Sir, it is like breaking the hearts of fanboys but true that, PAF wouldn't acquire another platform which is going to cost more than the birds pricing, in maintenance etc that too being lowest on budget. I will bet the day when officially announced any possibility for SUs and till then, it is just a media hype approach to irk many around and push them indirectly to spend more money.

Agrees with you never heard anything like PAF wanted to induct Russian jets from official source of PAF, Only P.A needs some gunships which I believe Russia is no more willing to provide since stacks are high and value of the contract is lower only 4 required initially by P.A but when it comes to big contract like JF-17 Russia happily ignores Indian pleas and supplied around 500 engines and parts. I believe any big demand from Pakistan like 2 or 3 squadron of any Russian jet would not be turned down. But question is PAF need that jets or not since after sale spare supplies are very poor and sub standard.

First thing, if in any case, PAF wants to have SUs and would have money for such purchase then there will be NO DENIAL from Russia at all as it is always about pure business sell & purchase which depends upon the money.

Secondly, when we needed the engines we have them and are still happy with RD-93 that even IMO, we are going for better RD-93MA version, the deal that totally ignored any possible Indian pressure. However, inducting SUs are like to build the whole new infrastructure for totally a new fighter which is going to cost a lot for initial procurement and currently, we are not good in budget to do so.

Indeed, ACM said that PAF is interested in High End fighters whether to be from West or East and there is no mentioning about SUs at all. So until & unless any official statement is given by Pakistan for purchase, these are nothing but tactics to sell the book and the supplier takes the advantage of situation by selling more goods to India. We cannot expect such purchase till the money flows like what we are wish for so then it could be a possibility but till then I must say, wait for the official confirmation.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

PAF does need a new fighter and that will be the 5th gen. Other than that any plane will represent small gains for huge costs. What people forget is the hidden costs of a inducting a new fighter. What you see is only the top of the iceberg. All support infrastructure has to be revamped. Therefore buying a new fighter in small numbers is madness.

I confess I know little about airforce technology but I am just rely on some simple common sense. Pakistan should wait until it can bring about sea change in it's air defence capabilities and that only will happen with 5th gen fighters. I can't see any Western country selling 5th gen to Pakistan - even Turkey as any 5th gen it develops will be offshoot of US 5th gen fighter.

Therefore for now Pakistan should go far maximum capitalization of it's defence dollars. PAF has total experiance with F-16 which can tweaked with help of Turks to keep it relevant. In addition more F-16s will come on the market so more could be bought and upgraded. This will represent efficient use of resources.

The only source which will offer PAF 5th gen will be Chinese. As soon as Chinese make 5th gen Pakistan should be ready to upgrade the entire fleet of F-16s. That I suspect is another decade at least in coming. But it sure will happen.In addition by that time Pakistan might even be able to have joint production with the Chinese.

 

[Mystery]

PAF does need a new fighter and that will be the 5th gen. Other than that any plane will represent small gains for huge costs. What people forget is the hidden costs of a inducting a new fighter. What you see is only the top of the iceberg. All support infrastructure has to be revamped. Therefore buying a new fighter in small numbers is madness.

I confess I know little about airforce technology but I am just rely on some simple common sense. Pakistan should wait until it can bring about sea change in it's air defence capabilities and that only will happen with 5th gen fighters. I can't see any Western country selling 5th gen to Pakistan - even Turkey as any 5th gen it develops will be offshoot of US 5th gen fighter.

Therefore for now Pakistan should go far maximum capitalization of it's defence dollars. PAF has total experiance with F-16 which can tweaked with help of Turks to keep it relevant. In addition more F-16s will come on the market so more could be bought and upgraded. This will represent efficient use of resources.

The only source which will offer PAF 5th gen will be Chinese. As soon as Chinese make 5th gen Pakistan should be ready to upgrade the entire fleet of F-16s. That I suspect is another decade at least in coming. But it sure will happen.In addition by that time Pakistan might even be able to have joint production with the Chinese.

I read on air warfare forum where many advocates that PAF and P.N needs twin engines long range fighter to defend our naval fleet and ports, What you say about that.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

I read on air warfare forum where many advocates that PAF and P.N needs twin engines long range fighter to defend our naval fleet and ports, What you say about that.

I reiterate. I am only lay man so my views should taken as such. However I entirely disagree. Pak does not need long range fighters given Pakistan's constraints. Resources are finite and demands are infinite. Yes it would be nice to have all sort of toys.

However Pakistan posture is defence. Ultimate defence is vested in nukes. Therefore a naval fleet that needs defending raises the question why does Pak have a naval fleet? Ports can be defended by PAF fighter force. Any war Pakistan has will be short and shrift. After 2 weeks or so either truce will prevail or it will go nuclear. In that narrow two weeek window PAF has sufficient assets to do the job.

That is my few pennies on this subject.

*Save the money, spend it on schools, hospitals, population control, roads, housing etc. That will ensure more long term security then fancy looking twin jets flying over Arabian Sea.

 

[Mystery]

*Save the money, spend it on schools, hospitals, population control, roads, housing etc. That will ensure more long term security then fancy looking twin jets flying over Arabian Sea.

Agree rest but not this part when wars are being launched to have more resources A nation without mighty force would prove only a sheep to be eaten by mighty wolf lurking in woods.

 

[Cyberian]

Russia also did not sell hundreds of RD-93 engines to Pakistan for JF-17 Thunders... they simply sold it China which were then sold (or transferred) to Pakistan. Simple.

 

[Mystery]

Russia also did not sell hundreds of RD-93 engines to Pakistan for JF-17 Thunders... they simply sold it China which were then sold (or transferred) to Pakistan. Simple.

Russians are not infants they clearly knows which country going to induct these engines further they given China and Pakistan right to re-export that engines but installed in Jets.

 

[Zain Malik]

Russia also did not sell hundreds of RD-93 engines to Pakistan for JF-17 Thunders... they simply sold it China which were then sold (or transferred) to Pakistan. Simple.

The same way J series can be transferred... Why restrictions..??