No Aryan migration into India / Pakistan? Its' all a myth?

[ChineseTiger1986]

@ChineseTiger

Just curious is that you in your avatar pic? If so, those girls seem fairly young

It is the ROC president Ma Ying-Jeou.

 

[rudrakx]

GENETICS AND THE ARYAN DEBATE
By Michel Danino
(please google the title for the link, I can't post link yet.)

This review article is very informative, article is lengthy so I am just posting the conclusions,

Conclusions

It is, of course, still possible to find genetic studies trying to interpret differences between North and South Indians or higher and lower castes within the invasionist framework, but that is simply because they take it for granted in the first place. None of the nine major studies quoted above lends any support to it, and none proposes to define a demarcation line between tribe and caste. The overall picture emerging from these studies is, first, an unequivocal rejection of a 3500-BP arrival of a “Caucasoid” or Central Asian gene pool. Just as the imaginary Aryan invasion / migration left no trace in Indian literature, in the archaeological and the anthropological record, it is invisible at the genetic level. The agreement between these different fields is remarkable by any standard, and offers hope for a grand synthesis in the near future, which will also integrate agriculture and linguistics.

Secondly, they account for India’s considerable genetic diversity by using a time- scale not of a few millennia, but of 40,000 or 50,000 years. In fact, several experts, such as Lluís Quintana-Murci,20 Vincent Macaulay,21 Stephen Oppenheimer,22 Michael Petraglia,23 and their associates, have in the last few years proposed that when Homo sapiens migrated out of Africa, he first reached South-West Asia around 75,000 BP, and from here, went on to other parts of the world. In simple terms, except for Africans, all humans have ancestors in the North-West of the Indian peninsula. In particular, one migration started around 50,000 BP towards the Middle East and Western Europe:

“indeed, nearly all Europeans — and by extension, many Americans — can trace their ancestors to only four mtDNA lines, which appeared between 10,000 and 50,000 years ago and originated from South Asia.” 24

Oppenheimer, a leading advocate of this scenario, summarizes it in these words:

“For me and for Toomas Kivisild, South Asia is logically the ultimate origin of M17 and his ancestors; and sure enough we find the highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17 line in Pakistan, India, and eastern Iran, and low rates in the Caucasus. M17 is not only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia, but diversity characterizes its presence in isolated tribal groups in the south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a ‘male Aryan invasion’ of India. One average estimate for the origin of this line in India is as much as 51,000 years. All this suggests that M17 could have found his way initially from India or Pakistan, through Kashmir, then via Central Asia and Russia, before finally coming into Europe.”25



We will not call it, of course, an “Indian invasion” of Europe; in simple terms, India acted “as an incubator of early genetic differentiation of modern humans moving out of Africa.”26

Genetics is a fast-evolving discipline, and the studies quoted above are certainly not the last word; but they have laid the basis for a wholly different perspective of Indian populations, and it is most unlikely that we will have to abandon it to return to the crude racial nineteenth-century fallacies of Aryan invaders and Dravidian autochthons. Neither have any reality in genetic terms, just as they have no reality in archaeological or cultural terms. In this sense, genetics is joining other disciplines in helping to clean the cobwebs of colonial historiography. If some have a vested interest in patching together the said cobwebs so they may keep cluttering our history textbooks, they are only delaying the inevitable.

 

[SpArK]

Somebody show that guy some pics of manisha koirala...who is also a nepalese

 

[PakistaniPacifist]

Wow, so the article hit where it hurts!

The partition was solely because of religion. You inferiority complex is apparent when you try to reinvent your identity and make yourself a laughing stock.

You have a strong identity crisis and you don't even get any sympathies for that. You chose it, now deal with it.

The article was a complete farce which highlighted religion for being the sole the reason of the so called 'partition' when infact many other factors were present, Indians just like the author have an obsession with Pakistan and Pakistanis, instead of highlighting the differences between the countries in aspect that i mentioned above like culture, heritage, ethnicity and social vaues he/she rather talk solely about religion so ignorant people assume that religion was the only force for the seperation when it couldn't be further from the truth.

My comments obviously struck a chord and it invoked you to response. Religion was used as a smokescreen for the so called 'partition' and the vast differences between Pakistanis and Indians, which are clearly evident once you interact with both sets of people. Indians are known to have an inferiority complex just you being here trying to pretend religion was the only factor proves that you seek acceptance from Pakistanis, even the name of your country has no respresentation on the people who reside within it, you can type all b.s and sugar coat various lies but the truth will always seep out. Pakistanis and Indians have squat all in common and it's about time Indians learnt to accept it instead of coming on defence.pk with their idiotic theories hoping that some Pakistanis will give you an olive branch where you can preach about similarites between both nation when they in reality do not exist.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Kirats were peaceful people just like their Tibetan cousins.

Why you call them barbarians?

Vedic people, plains people did not me...

g2g

 

[KS]

. Indians are known to have an inferiority complex just you being here trying to pretend religion was the only factor proves that you seek acceptance from Pakistanis,

That is the single most stupidest thing I have heard on this forum except ofcourse the "RSS has links with ISI" canard posted some time back.

even the name of your country has no respresentation on the people who reside within it,

Sindhu ---> Hindu ----> India.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

GENETICS AND THE ARYAN DEBATE
By Michel Danino
(please google the title for the link, I can't post link yet.)

This review article is very informative, article is lengthy so I am just posting the conclusions,

Conclusions

It is, of course, still possible to find genetic studies trying to interpret differences between North and South Indians or higher and lower castes within the invasionist framework, but that is simply because they take it for granted in the first place. None of the nine major studies quoted above lends any support to it, and none proposes to define a demarcation line between tribe and caste. The overall picture emerging from these studies is, first, an unequivocal rejection of a 3500-BP arrival of a “Caucasoid” or Central Asian gene pool. Just as the imaginary Aryan invasion / migration left no trace in Indian literature, in the archaeological and the anthropological record, it is invisible at the genetic level. The agreement between these different fields is remarkable by any standard, and offers hope for a grand synthesis in the near future, which will also integrate agriculture and linguistics.

Secondly, they account for India’s considerable genetic diversity by using a time- scale not of a few millennia, but of 40,000 or 50,000 years. In fact, several experts, such as Lluís Quintana-Murci,20 Vincent Macaulay,21 Stephen Oppenheimer,22 Michael Petraglia,23 and their associates, have in the last few years proposed that when Homo sapiens migrated out of Africa, he first reached South-West Asia around 75,000 BP, and from here, went on to other parts of the world. In simple terms, except for Africans, all humans have ancestors in the North-West of the Indian peninsula. In particular, one migration started around 50,000 BP towards the Middle East and Western Europe:

“indeed, nearly all Europeans — and by extension, many Americans — can trace their ancestors to only four mtDNA lines, which appeared between 10,000 and 50,000 years ago and originated from South Asia.” 24

Oppenheimer, a leading advocate of this scenario, summarizes it in these words:

“For me and for Toomas Kivisild, South Asia is logically the ultimate origin of M17 and his ancestors; and sure enough we find the highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17 line in Pakistan, India, and eastern Iran, and low rates in the Caucasus. M17 is not only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia, but diversity characterizes its presence in isolated tribal groups in the south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a ‘male Aryan invasion’ of India. One average estimate for the origin of this line in India is as much as 51,000 years. All this suggests that M17 could have found his way initially from India or Pakistan, through Kashmir, then via Central Asia and Russia, before finally coming into Europe.”25



We will not call it, of course, an “Indian invasion” of Europe; in simple terms, India acted “as an incubator of early genetic differentiation of modern humans moving out of Africa.”26

Genetics is a fast-evolving discipline, and the studies quoted above are certainly not the last word; but they have laid the basis for a wholly different perspective of Indian populations, and it is most unlikely that we will have to abandon it to return to the crude racial nineteenth-century fallacies of Aryan invaders and Dravidian autochthons. Neither have any reality in genetic terms, just as they have no reality in archaeological or cultural terms. In this sense, genetics is joining other disciplines in helping to clean the cobwebs of colonial historiography. If some have a vested interest in patching together the said cobwebs so they may keep cluttering our history textbooks, they are only delaying the inevitable.

That seems to be plausible.

So what about the Scythians? Since they were Non-Vedic people, were they considered as Aryan?

BTW, the religion of the Scythians wasn't even Zorastrianism, but some sort of Slavic-like Mythology.

Papaois/Perun is the thunder God for the Scythian people, maybe they were ancient Slavs, not Vedic Aryans.

 

[Manas]

Budhism was driven out of areas currently under India by Hindus.

If Buddhism was most popular anywhere in the subcontinent then they were in places which are today known as Afghanistan , Pakistan and Bangladesh.
So you can now guess who drove out Buddhism from the indian subcontinent.

 

[rudrakx]

To Chinese Tiger 1986,
Please go through the link,
archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/genetics-aryan-debate (<< google this n u will get link)
The article refers few figures, have a look at it.
reading whole article would be good. I am not good in Archaeology and history but expert in genetics related fields.

 

[John Doe]

Hi Joe,
About the underlined part: you probably mean the "Hegdewar-Golwalkar" theory among others. But there was a great Notable of India's Freedom Movement who had postulated a similar theory; and I don't mean Sawarkar!

Be that as it might be; there is another theory about the origin of the Konkanastha Chitpavan Brahmins themselves. It runs thus: a ship-load of Jewish merchants were ship-wrecked off the Konkan coast. They came ashore, formed a settlement and became part of the community. Certain anthropological features persist; color of hair and eyes, facial features, body structure etc. Seems some-what plausible. Even Nissim Ezekiel (the late poet) had a take on this.

Being born and raised in Pune, this is exactly what I heard too!
In addition to the similarities you mentioned, there is one more trait shared by my best friends and Jews . Hint in the form of a joke: How was wire invented? 2 Jews saw the same coin at the same time

 

[MAFIAN GOD]

Being born and raised in Pune, this is exactly what I heard too!
In addition to the similarities you mentioned, there is one more trait shared by my best friends and Jews . Hint in the form of a joke: How was wire invented? 2 Jews saw the same coin at the same time

Dude where are you from???
Me too live in Pune near Tilak Road(Sarasbag)

 

[vandemataram]

They will cite burning of Bodhi tree, and atrocities during a minor king in Bengal.

Well, Abir, I think you are a saner Communist. SImply, by brushing aside facts and in their place, myths perpetrated to serve political interests have got the better of Indians.

 

[John Doe]

Dude where are you from???
Me too live in Pune near Tilak Road(Sarasbag)

Lived in Wakdewadi till 16. Then Aundh, then the US for nearly a decade, and since last week, back in Aundh
That reminds me , I must change my flags......

 

[John Doe]

Sorry , posted twice.

 

[John Doe]

Delete, damn double post!