No aircraft engines to Pak, please

[simon719719719]

Guess we dont have to worry about China then!!!

Why are you worried us..? Why?

We are worried about US...we all developing countries? why worried each other?

 

[Contrarian]

because China is a backstabbing country that has gone to war with us. Because China aids Pakistan so that Pakistan can compete militarily with India. Because China has been following for a while a containment of India policy via the pearl of strings. Because China cannot become a GLOBAL power unless it is the sole super power in its own region ie Asia. No country can be gobal power unless it can completely dominate its own region. India is there, and thus CHina wants to remove India from this equation.

 

[sword9]

Sword, Pakistan does not deploy Crotales in the Northern Areas and neither were they deployed in the Kargil theater (its a PAF unit and not a PA asset). All of the aircraft hit were with MANPADS (The AAD men were given citations /medals for the downing of both aircraft). The terrain in the Northern areas is also not optimal for a wheeled asset like the Crotale and no airforce units were deployed.

I stand corrected, I just guessed it was a Crotale. It has been mentioned in this forum (by the Air Marshal) that it was a ground based radar unit and SAM system. The SAM may be of a different make, but the Mig-21 was not hit by a MANPAD but by a SAM system. That thread has been deleated unfortunately.

 

[blain2]

because China is a backstabbing country that has gone to war with us. Because China aids Pakistan so that Pakistan can compete militarily with India. Because China has been following for a while a containment of India policy via the pearl of strings. Because China cannot become a GLOBAL power unless it is the sole super power in its own region ie Asia. No country can be gobal power unless it can completely dominate its own region. India is there, and thus CHina wants to remove India from this equation.

You know Malay those are some harsh words, but the Chinese can turn that argument right around with India's ongoing honeymoon with the US and all of the signals coming from the US about encirclement of China with regional US partners like Japan, Australia and India.

 

[blain2]

I stand corrected, I just guessed it was a Crotale. It has been mentioned in this forum (by the Air Marshal) that it was a ground based radar unit and SAM system. The SAM may be of a different make, but the Mig-21 was not hit by a MANPAD but by a SAM system. That thread has been deleated unfortunately.

Sword, I doubt the aircraft were shot down with anything other than a MANPADS (the only other option aside from MANPADS is RBS-70 in PA service) which is pretty close to a MANPADS since its also a short range AAM. All of the "real" SAMs are in service with PAF and not PA.

 

[Contrarian]

You know Malay those are some harsh words, but the Chinese can turn that argument right around with India's ongoing honeymoon with the US and all of the signals coming from the US about encirclement of China with regional US partners like Japan, Australia and India.

You know Blain, sometimes, emotions come out and truth is spoken.

You tell me, if India is given a pass in the nuke club and the doors of technology is opened for India, why is it only a conspiracy against China. Can it not be simply for India to develop herself?

And if indeed that is the plan, encircling China with Japan, Aus, and India, then we are justified because China has been doing that to us for a much longer time...Pakistan, Burma, Bangladesh, you know the entire string of pearls division.

So in essence its ok if China does it, its not if we do it?!

Do you know how SOLIDLY India backed China for its permanent security council membership. Nehru personally talked to the US for it, that was the time of hindi-chini bhai bhai). And for that now most Indians think of him as a ***. And now, the same China is trying to stall our membership.

Let me tell you what China thinks, it thinks that it is legitimate for her to attain a great power status as it already had a historical standing as a great power whereas if India tries to do it, then they are trying to be aggressive.

You know, India is rising, with or without the US, without US it would take some additional years but India would rise nonetheless. So the US wants to have an active participation now in India's rise, so that when it does reach a global high, US-India relations would be the best, India would trust US like UK does now. It does not want India to have risen with the current mindeset of distrusting US. It wants to foster India as an ally for the future. These are the words spoken by some US ambasador or some1 in the US administration. OFcourse not hte exact words, but with the same literal meaning.

US thinks it would leverage India against China when the time comes. Now this would happen depending on the status of Indo-China relationship at that time, and not US's relationship. Russia wants to cultivate India as an ally against US along with China. No side neither US or China would be able to take on each other alone, not now but when China is indeed a global power. Then India's worth would come into play. Which would be by then arguably one of the worlds top 3 military nations.

 

[blain2]

You know Blain, sometimes, emotions come out and truth is spoken.

So in essence its ok if China does it, its not if we do it?!

No I do not see it that way at all...simply pointing out that the concerns you have about China, they probably feel the same way about India....the same goes with the perceptions in India and Pakistan about each other...we all know that truth of all this is somewhere in the middle...

 

[Contrarian]

Ok, forget all that , just answer some questions like China's string of pearls.Why are they doing it?
If they do that, they cannot expect Indian govt to be very warm and friendly to them.

Why are they trying to stall India's membership in Security council.
They dont expect that India would be kind to them if they do this.
Then they comlain of us being aggressive.

Also please note the thing i wrote above about Indo US bonhomie.

 

[Munir]

The reason why China vlocks it cause India and US (including Israel) are so much in ahoneymoon that both Pakistan and China have to puke. India acts like a superpower and like Israel it occupies territory and terrorises Kashmiri... There is no need for Indioa joinging another VETO group which has nothing else to so then accept onesided actions by one member. UN lost its credibility with Irac... Being a member of that doesn't mean anything now. Adding India to it even less.

 

[Contrarian]

The reason why China vlocks it cause India and US (including Israel) are so much in ahoneymoon that both Pakistan and China have to puke.

China has been at it LONG LONG before the Indo-US honeymoon along with Israel. What about then? When India still had sanctions, etc. Why was China still following containment policies vis-a-vis India then??

India acts like a superpower and like Israel it occupies territory and terrorises Kashmiri...

Who says India terrorises Kashmiris. India has said, those who prefer Pakistan are free to go and join them. India terrorises only those who terrorise its citizens.

There is no need for Indioa joinging another VETO group which has nothing else to so then accept onesided actions by one member. UN lost its credibility with Irac... Being a member of that doesn't mean anything now. Adding India to it even less.

Says who that adding India would make it less effective. India is the ONLY functioning democracy in South Asia, i would rather say that India would act as a stabilising force in UN.

 

[Munir]

>>>malaymishra123;45011]China has been at it LONG LONG before the Indo-US honeymoon along with Israel. What about then? When India still had sanctions, etc. Why was China still following containment policies vis-a-vis India then??

China had the same sanction cause it did react to the uprise in Chien A Min square... They were also dumped with their F8 program. China has enough anti sentiments cause USA arms Japan, Korea and Taiwan... US did send spy planes more then a few times close to China...


>>>Who says India terrorises Kashmiris. India has said, those who prefer Pakistan are free to go and join them. India terrorises only those who terrorise its citizens.

Whay saya? Read Amnesty reports... And do some UN reseach...


>>>Says who that adding India would make it less effective. India is the ONLY functioning democracy in South Asia, i would rather say that India would act as a stabilising force in UN.

Only functioning? Well India is dead meat with 600 million below the poverty... India is called secular and democratic yet hindu nationalist rule it... It is windowdressed democracy and in fact extremely corrupt... It has not signed the NPT... It is aggressively with its neighbours (so many enemies are wring and india is ok?) It has wishes to become superpower... I do not call that stabuility but stupidity. Just like the arrogance of posters from India. Just visit BRF or Keymag. They are posting with western names and act like they own the world... Dignity and respect is gone...

 

[vnomad]

Only functioning? Well India is dead meat with 600 million below the poverty...

Hey guess what. Pakistan when I last checked had a similar poverty rate to that of India. Maybe its made some great leap forward in 2006 that I'm not aware of.

India is called secular and democratic yet hindu nationalist rule it...

So Mr. Manmohan Singh(leads the govt.), Sonia Gandhi(presides over the coalition in power) and A.P.J. Abdul Kalam(who is the president) are ALL actually hindus.

It is windowdressed democracy and in fact extremely corrupt...

Transparency International 2006:

160 countries surveyed

India ranked 70 (same as China which is a SC permanent member)

Pakistan ranked 142.

It is aggressively with its neighbours (so many enemies are wring and india is ok?)

Errr ... Kargil anyone? India despite all provocation did not attempt to escalate the conflict. And don't tell me that it was the professionalism of the Pakistani military that deterred such a move.

It has wishes to become superpower... I do not call that stabuility but stupidity.

But, its okay if China wants to be a superpower. Reeks of hypocrisy.

Just like the arrogance of posters from India. Just visit BRF or Keymag. They are posting with western names and act like they own the world... Dignity and respect is gone...

You have a problem then please take it up with the posters there or with the administration on those forums.

 

[Contrarian]

China had the same sanction cause it did react to the uprise in Chien A Min square... They were also dumped with their F8 program. China has enough anti sentiments cause USA arms Japan, Korea and Taiwan... US did send spy planes more then a few times close to China...

That does not answer my question. I said sanctions to prove that India and US were not close at that time. Why the at that time was China following containment policies against India?

Whay saya? Read Amnesty reports... And do some UN reseach...

Sometimes, wheat gets grinded along with the Chaff

Only functioning?

I would say that, yes since we have change of governments when there are elections. Since, i have gone to vote. Do you doubt that India has democracy??
Now look at Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh. Do any of them have a functioning democracy?

Well India is dead meat with 600 million below the poverty

Last time i checked it was b/w 200 and 300 million. But do tell me, does having poverty mean that it is not a democracy??
Anyways, Pakistan has comparable ratio's.

... India is called secular and democratic yet hindu nationalist rule it...

As vnomad said above. Add to that, that our Army Chief is also a Sikh. And our defense minister is a Christian.

It is windowdressed democracy and in fact extremely corrupt

If it is window dressed, then how do the governments change?? I wonder, shouldnt there be one entity which lords over all in the guise of democracy??
Stop dreaming Munir that India is a window dressed democracy. We goto elections every 4 years, we vote, and we get the government that gets the maximum votes.

Corrupt? Hmm. Again does being corrupt not make India a democracy?
Do you know what democracy is??

On a separate note, like vnomad said, see the transparency international's ratings.

... It has not signed the NPT... It is aggressively with its neighbours

So, Pakistan, and Israel have not signed NPT too. We will not sign any treaty that discruminates against us.

(so many enemies are wring and india is ok?)

So many enemies?? Pakistan and China. Possibly Bangadesh as a future enemy, but not now. Who are the so many enemies? We have excellent relations in the ME. And who cares if we have enemies. Can they do anything to harm us?? US is world enemy no. 1. So? Does that mean it is not a superpower? China has enemies in Japan, US, Australia, and many more nations.

It has wishes to become superpower... I do not call that stabuility but stupidity.

Just because Pakistan CANNOT become a superpower in the visible future, dont undermine India. China also has dehumanising poverty, has income differences bet rich and poor, so? Its ok if China becomes a global power and not India? Dream on. We have accomplished so much in 10 years, in another 20 you will see a different India.

The world has said India will become a major global power, go and complain to them.

Just like the arrogance of posters from India. Just visit BRF or Keymag. They are posting with western names and act like they own the world... Dignity and respect is gone...

Not my concern.

 

[niaz]

That does not answer my question. I said sanctions to prove that India and US were not close at that time. Why the at that time was China following containment policies against India?


Sometimes, wheat gets grinded along with the Chaff


I would say that, yes since we have change of governments when there are elections. Since, i have gone to vote. Do you doubt that India has democracy??
Now look at Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh. Do any of them have a functioning democracy?


Last time i checked it was b/w 200 and 300 million. But do tell me, does having poverty mean that it is not a democracy??
Anyways, Pakistan has comparable ratio's.


As vnomad said above. Add to that, that our Army Chief is also a Sikh. And our defense minister is a Christian.


If it is window dressed, then how do the governments change?? I wonder, shouldnt there be one entity which lords over all in the guise of democracy??
Stop dreaming Munir that India is a window dressed democracy. We goto elections every 4 years, we vote, and we get the government that gets the maximum votes.

Corrupt? Hmm. Again does being corrupt not make India a democracy?
Do you know what democracy is??

On a separate note, like vnomad said, see the transparency international's ratings.


So, Pakistan, and Israel have not signed NPT too. We will not sign any treaty that discruminates against us.


So many enemies?? Pakistan and China. Possibly Bangadesh as a future enemy, but not now. Who are the so many enemies? We have excellent relations in the ME. And who cares if we have enemies. Can they do anything to harm us?? US is world enemy no. 1. So? Does that mean it is not a superpower? China has enemies in Japan, US, Australia, and many more nations.


Just because Pakistan CANNOT become a superpower in the visible future, dont undermine India. China also has dehumanising poverty, has income differences bet rich and poor, so? Its ok if China becomes a global power and not India? Dream on. We have accomplished so much in 10 years, in another 20 you will see a different India.

The world has said India will become a major global power, go and complain to them.


Not my concern.

Dear Sir,

With due respect, I fail to see what this is all about. Pakistan has never; since her birth in 1947; had ambitions to either become a super power or even a regional power. We have been fighting for our existence against the " Akhund Bharat" policies our erstwhile giant neighbour.

India partially succeeded by breaking us in half. Most of our defence strategy is geared towards making it too expensive for India to try 1971 again, whereas India has always tried her level best to impede our efforts to modrenize our forces. Putting pressure on Russia to deny engines for JF-17 demontrates this point.

Pakistan has never laid claim to any part of India except asking for a 'Plebesite' in Kashmir, basically to let Kashmiris decide what they want to do. (Please dont quote Kargil, it was just an attempt to revitalize the Kashmair issue. Similarly 1965 war;aka Operation Gibralter, also aimed at inciting the Kashmiris to rise against Indian occupation). India on other hand occupied Siachin and never accepted Sir Creek as border. No one under estimates India in any way and we even quote India's example in TV debates on democracy. What we dont like is the bullying tactics of our big brother.

I honestly dont see the point in all the 'rhetoric' in you post. However, I dont deny that you have a perfect right to have your point of view.

 

[Contrarian]

Dear Sir,

With due respect, I fail to see what this is all about. Pakistan has never; since her birth in 1947; had ambitions to either become a super power or even a regional power. We have been fighting for our existence against the " Akhund Bharat" policies our erstwhile giant neighbour.

Its aim since birth has been to be an anti-India. It has repeatedly attacked India.

India partially succeeded by breaking us in half. Most of our defence strategy is geared towards making it too expensive for India to try 1971 again, whereas India has always tried her level best to impede our efforts to modrenize our forces. Putting pressure on Russia to deny engines for JF-17 demontrates this point.

It has always initiated wars first against India. There has not been a time when India first attacked Pakistan.

Pakistan has never laid claim to any part of India except asking for a 'Plebesite' in Kashmir, basically to let Kashmiris decide what they want to do. India on other hand occupied Siachin and never accepted Sir Creek as border.

Today its Kashmir, if India cedes Kashmir, then Pakistan will send some people over to Punjab, etc, and start demanding more areas as they are muslim dominated, then ask for plebicite and then 'diplomatically' support the 'freedom struggle'.

No one under estimates India in any way and we even quote India's example in TV debates on democracy. What we dont like is the bullying tactics of our big brother.

Give an example of bullying. Its all about terrorism now Sir. If Pakistan stops supporting the terrorists, then half the problem will be solved. The other half can be solved when the Kashmir dispute is setlled.

I honestly dont see the point in all the 'rhetoric' in you post.

My previous post was in reply to saying that India does not have a democracy, its only window dressing, and that becaues India has poor people it cannot become a global power, BUT China which has the same problems INdia has, can.

However, I dont deny that you have a perfect right to have your point of view.

Thankyou