Nice assesment of Pakistan by Dr Shashi Tharoor

[Hamza913]

Thank you. And now, the answers to my questions?

I had hoped to find an Indian that gave a fair assessment with no exaggerations, and this type of opinion as the man in the video has bothers me as he acts as if we are somehow worse than the rest of south asia.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I had hoped to find an Indian that gave a fair assessment with no exaggerations, and this type of opinion as the man in the video has bothers me as he acts as if we are somehow worse than the rest of south asia.

Some things you should know about him: he is exactly of my generation and we debated against each other. He was just the same then, forty years ago, he from the missionary college in Delhi representing a slick, silver-tongued oratory devoid of substance. He is not the Indian who will give you a fair assessment with no exaggerations; he speaks to the gallery, as he always has.

Nobody in his senses believes that an entire country can be judged as a whole and compared to another country, as a whole; it is the administration of these countries that matter. Most of us, throughout India, not merely on this forum, hold the military rulers far more responsible for the mess that has happened than the ordinary Pakistani. The extreme views that we read, on both sides, are probably people venting their daily frustrations, in the case of adults, or schoolchildren striving hard for attention, for the younger set. Neither is important, and it is just a letting out of steam. There are very few who address issues with a curiosity and a desire to learn what actually happened, or

If you want an Indian who will assess matters fairly, try either Amartya Sen or Lord Meghnad Desai, representing the moderate left and the moderate right. Desai's book "The Rediscovery of India" was so good on the history of the freedom struggle that I have been recommending it to everybody.

 

[jaunty]

He may be factually wrong in his comment on GDP share but his overall appraisal of Pakistan Army and the role of its political establishment is completely correct. Even today, after 8 years of civilian governance things haven't changed much. The army chief is still the most important leader in the country, especially when it comes to foreign affairs and relationship with India. It is not going to change in the near future.

LOL...If Shashi Tharoor reads this, he will have a heart attack.

Only if by nationalism you mean bhakt defined pseudo-nationalism. I am sure there are nationalists, patriots in the country who are not bhakts.

 

[DesiGuy1403]

Only if by nationalism you mean bhakt defined pseudo-nationalism. I am sure there are nationalists, patriots in the country who are not bhakts.

I completely agree with you sir. There are numerous nationalists who are non-Bhakths. There are many patriots who hate RSS and love their country. There are many from all walks of life who would give their life for nation.

But unfortunately for both us, Shashi is not one of them. His speech in JNU was pretty revealing and quite obvious.

 

[Path-Finder]

Just out of curiousity, might one ask; what other kind of Indian had you hoped to find? And what kind of Indian opinion bothers you in the first place?

I like post 8!

 

[jaunty]

I completely agree with you sir. There are numerous nationalists who are non-Bhakths. There are many patriots who hate RSS and love their country. There are many from all walks of life who would give their life for nation.

But unfortunately for both us, Shashi is not one of them. His speech in JNU was pretty revealing and quite obvious.

Not unfortunate for me, I don't follow Nagpur school of anti-national certification like you do which is built around the same principles of mullah school of kafir certification.

 

[DesiGuy1403]

Not unfortunate for me, I don't follow Nagpur school of anti-national certification like you do which is built around the same principles of mullah school of kafir certification.

Yes sir, it is pretty clear that you too run a "special" school that is giving out certifications, like how you are doing right now.

What now...do we insult each other claiming my ideology is greater than yours? Or do you have some thing else in mind? Mind you, your kind is pretty inventive in dishing out certifications - Racist, Bigot etc etc....so, let's get on with it, shall we.

 

[Samrat420]

1. Yes you do, and you just said so. It doesn't matter why, all that matters is that you do.

2. Not all of Siachen is under Indian control, but most of it is. Also, India was the one who first started putting troops up there, so yes you did want it and want the rest of it too, as the part Pakistan controls is pretty damn important, and taking that would be a strategic advantage. It is effectively the only part of the Siachen worth fighting for, it connects to a bunch of places.

3. India might not want it for itself, but you want to take it away from Pakistan. India has funded Baluchi insurgents and I won't even mention the spies that have been busted there, or that BLA leaders have admitted it themselves.

4. India has taken territory from Bangladesh, look it up and ask any Bangladeshi's, they will agree.

5. They were paramilitaries, actually. There's a difference.

6. No, my statement is entirely true. The Afghan Taliban and LeT do not attack Pakistan. As for the TTP, we didn't fund them. Our terrorism is because we made the mistake of helping the US.

7. India is not as free as any other society in the world. If you can't eat beef without fear of death, your society is not free. As for drawing cartoons of our prophets, there are numerous states you can go to for that one.

★ Has India ever pressed its claim on P0K, either by diplomatic or military means? While on multiple occasions, India has showed her willingness to convert LOC into IB. India is the status quo power in the Kashmir conflict, not the revisionist one.

★ Nope.. Not a single inch of Siachen is under Pak control. Indian and Pakistani forces are arrayed at the eastern and western side of Saltoro Ridge respectively, and all of Siachen is in the east of Saltoro ridge. Be kind enough to provide me any sources that claim Pakistan controls anything east of Saltoro ridge.

★ Again.. India doesn't want to “take Baluchistan away" from Pakistan. Indian support to groups like BLA isn't meant to dismember Pakistan, but to bleed her and keep the Pak forces and Intel agencies occupied in their home, so that they can't plot mischief in India. A payback of sorts for all Pakistan has done and keeps doing in Kashmir.

★ Capturing spies isn't such a huge deal as you've been making it out to be. A few weeks ago, India also caught a few ISI spies from near Garden Reach Shipbuilding in Kolkata, that doesn't mean Pakistan has ‘evil designs' on Kolkata.. right? Spies are an essential part of HUMINT. Why so much hue and cry over one guy?

★ No bro.. India hasn't taken any territory from Bangladesh, it has actually given territory to Bangladesh. I have no idea where you're getting such news from. Can you please post a link which proves your claim.?

★ Ummm.. No. They were not paramilitaries. They were irregular militias. You're confusing the Pashtun marauders with the Gilgit scouts. A few good history books might help.

★ I never said the Afghan Taliban and the LeT attack Pakistan. I said that you created a cute and cuddly virus and thought you're immune to it. But the virus had a mind of its own. It mutated and became self sustainable. It went out of control. The AT and the LeT aren't the virus, they're just the symptoms. The virus is “Islamic Radicalism ".

★ Name a few countries where I can draw a cartoon of Muhammad and still feel perfectly safe. If its not possible in a very stable, liberal, secular society like the France or Britain, then I don't think its possible anywhere.

 

[Joe Shearer]

1. Yes you do, and you just said so. It doesn't matter why, all that matters is that you do.

He didn't say so; he said we claim it. Wanting it and claiming it for other purposes are two different things altogether.

2. Not all of Siachen is under Indian control, but most of it is. Also, India was the one who first started putting troops up there, so yes you did want it and want the rest of it too, as the part Pakistan controls is pretty damn important, and taking that would be a strategic advantage. It is effectively the only part of the Siachen worth fighting for, it connects to a bunch of places.

Incorrect.

• Pakistani troops had got there first, but not set up permanent positions.
• We are on both the eastern and the widest4
• As far as wanting the rest of it is concerned, we gain nothing but access to Pakistani territory. We have similar topographical advantages at the Haji Pir Pass; how has that helped us? Are we planning to occupy Islamabad? If not, why on earth would we want access to Pakistani territory?

3. India might not want it for itself, but you want to take it away from Pakistan. India has funded Baluchi insurgents and I won't even mention the spies that have been busted there, or that BLA leaders have admitted it themselves.

Go back to the original point. If we wanted it, we could have asked for it, and kept it away from Pakistan. There is nothing Pakistan could have done, about that, or about NWFP. We stuck to the legal positions, you didn't. We still do, you still don't.

4. India has taken territory from Bangladesh, look it up and ask any Bangladeshi's, they will agree.

We took nothing. There was an exchange of tiny enclaves, and Bangladesh got 50% more than she gave away. Nobody can agree to something that never happened.

5. They were paramilitaries, actually. There's a difference.

Read your own Tariq Ali, read your own Akbar Khan.They were not paramilitaries.

6. No, my statement is entirely true. The Afghan Taliban and LeT do not attack Pakistan. As for the TTP, we didn't fund them. Our terrorism is because we made the mistake of helping the US.

You didn't make the mistake of helping the US. That makes it sound so reluctant, so passive, so neutral....you jumped enthusiastically into, not one but two alliances with them,into the Asian equivalent of NATO. That was not reluctant acquiescence, that was girlish enthusiasm. And you used the American arms and ammunitions exclusively against India for three decades.

7. India is not as free as any other society in the world. If you can't eat beef without fear of death, your society is not free. As for drawing cartoons of our prophets, there are numerous states you can go to for that one.

Just at the moment, we seem to be just a whisker ahead of you. Perhaps you could address those gaps first.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

All countries work with narratives. So no surprise this gentleman is repeating the indian narrative. Makes total sense.

Look India is in commanding position in SA. BD is docile and will not go against Indian wishes.

SL is back to Indian side. Bhutan is under Indian control. Maladives is an Indian protectrate really.

And Nepal... well Indians pushed them too hard this time. But they have no place to go.

It is not nice of Pakistan not to bend to Indian will...hence a great price to be paid in terms keeping a big defencive force.

Now in terms of economy and military expenditure... India is about 7x in size, population about 6 and economy about 10. A historic fact. This is the ratio that is going to remain.

Now from Indian perspective the best thing for Pak is to become docile and be integrated into its shpere of influence. IF not then the narrative will keep going.

Why would Pak just not accept the indian dominance? After all you ruled them for more than 1000 years and just left along with the British. Surely, if you look from Indian perspective, they have historic grievance to settle with you.

All things being equal will this permanent conflict remain? Solve Kashmir and move on with your development. Sign a no war treaty and let peace pervail.

 

[Samrat420]

All countries work with narratives. So no surprise this gentleman is repeating the indian narrative. Makes total sense.

Look India is in commanding position in SA. BD is docile and will not go against Indian wishes.

SL is back to Indian side. Bhutan is under Indian control. Maladives is an Indian protectrate really.

And Nepal... well Indians pushed them too hard this time. But they have no place to go.

It is not nice of Pakistan not to bend to Indian will...hence a great price to be paid in terms keeping a big defencive force.

Now in terms of economy and military expenditure... India is about 7x in size, population about 6 and economy about 10. A historic fact. This is the ratio that is going to remain.

Now from Indian perspective the best thing for Pak is to become docile and be integrated into its shpere of influence. IF not then the narrative will keep going.

Why would Pak just not accept the indian dominance? After all you ruled them for more than 1000 years and just left along with the British. Surely, if you look from Indian perspective, they have historic grievance to settle with you.

All things being equal will this permanent conflict remain? Solve Kashmir and move on with your development. Sign a no war treaty and let peace pervail.

This is something new for me.. I never knew that Pakistanis ruled us Indians for a thousand years.. Yet you say they did. I'd be open to accept this as the gospel truth, provided that you can post a few links which prove this claim. I'd be waiting..

And BTW, This no war treaty that you proposed... Does this treaty also include proxy wars or only conventional wars?

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

This is something new for me.. I never knew that Pakistanis ruled us Indians for a thousand years.. Yet you say they did. I'd be open to accept this as the gospel truth, provided that you can post a few links which prove this claim. I'd be waiting..

And BTW, This no war treaty that you proposed... Does this treaty also include proxy wars or only conventional wars?

One only suggested that both countries should solve their issues and then sign a no war/permanent peace treaty.
Peace and development is better for both of them.

Good luck!

 

[Samrat420]

One only suggested that both countries should solve their issues and then sign a no war/permanent peace treaty.
Peace and development is better for both of them.

Good luck!

Of course bro.. I agree with you. War is bad.. Peace is good... Permanent peace is even better. And surely both countries should solve their issues.. Everyone agrees on this.

What I wanted to know is --- How? How do we solve the issues in such a way that both sides feel content with the solution..? I'd be very thankful If you could suggest a few prudent measures which can lead to the “solution of issues".

And BTW, I'd also be waiting for the links which prove “Pakistanis ruled over Indians for a thousand years.".

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Of course bro.. I agree with you. War is bad.. Peace is good... Permanent peace is even better. And surely both countries should solve their issues.. Everyone agrees on this.

What I wanted to know is --- How? How do we solve the issues in such a way that both sides feel content with the solution..? I'd be very thankful If you could suggest a few prudent measures which can lead to the “solution of issues".

And BTW, I'd also be waiting for the links which prove “Pakistanis ruled over Indians for a thousand years.".

First and far most solution is acceptance by both sides that their is a hugh problem. An open and honest recognition. Away from lobbies and media pundits.

Second is math. They need to do the math. How much per capita development will it bring if there is permanent peace. And what is total cost of this current stand off.

Third stage... and painful one forgiveness. Indians must forgive Pak for subjogating them (100yr or 1000yr doesn't matter. And Pak must accept this deep feeling of pain on Indian side and ask forgiveness for injustice.

Final stage... open the Kashmir borders... let them be under your joint protection and let them use both of your currencies... Agree on river water distribution. No body looses face or political capital.

Do trade and expand development. The proglem is both side are stuck deep and need a face saving way out.

Simple an elegant solution which makes no one loose face.

Regarding 1000yr business. Your country men can be quite agressive and abusive so rather not go into this discussion. IF the a rational discussion is possible then it will be educational for all of us. Kindly remember history is never absolute.

I would be rather more interested in the lost Vedas and their origin than divisions and anger.

Bless you.. at least you have the goodness to call me your brother!

 

[Samrat420]

First and far most solution is acceptance by both sides that their is a hugh problem. An open and honest recognition. Away from lobbies and media pundits.

Second is math. They need to do the math. How much per capita development will it bring if there is permanent peace. And what is total cost of this current stand off.

Third stage... and painful one forgiveness. Indians must forgive Pak for subjogating them (100yr or 1000yr doesn't matter. And Pak must accept this deep feeling of pain on Indian side and ask forgiveness for injustice.

Final stage... open the Kashmir borders... let them be under your joint protection and let them use both of your currencies... Agree on river water distribution. No body looses face or political capital.

Do trade and expand development. The proglem is both side are stuck deep and need a face saving way out.

Simple an elegant solution which makes no one loose face.

Regarding 1000yr business. Your country men can be quite agressive and abusive so rather not go into this discussion. IF the a rational discussion is possible then it will be educational for all of us. Kindly remember history is never absolute.

I would be rather more interested in the lost Vedas and their origin than divisions and anger.

Bless you.. at least you have the goodness to call me your brother!

I assure you I would neither be aggressive nor abusive... I'm just intrigued to hear that “Pakistanis ruled over Indians for a thousand years". My history books sadly missed those chapters which dealt with the timeline when Pakistanis ruled over Indians. I just wanted you to kindly provide a few authentic links pertaining to the same. I'd be very thankful to you for that.. Good Luck.