Nice assesment of Pakistan by Dr Shashi Tharoor

[DesiGuy1403]

I have done my reasearch, you are just making claims based on debunked rumours. We will leave it at that.

Nobody starves if you draw cartoons, but there will always be someone who will try and kill you. Stopping you from doing it protects you, you should be thanking us.



Yeah but you can't, harsh fact you will have to accept.

The state as you pointed out when it came to beef, should be protecting and encouraging people who draw the cartoons as well.

Coming to beef in india, it's illegal in most states, harsh fact, it is offensive to Hindus and that's a fact you have to accept as well.

What is good for the goose should be good for the gander.

Your kind always wants things done your way with no respect for golden rule. Guess what, we won't ever let people eat cow in India and we will keep drawing cartoons.....how does that sound?

 

[TMA]

Actually "Pakistan" did not subjugate them we were only born in 47 and were carved from British India via referendum and we have nothing to apologize for most of us acknowledge our ancestors were probably Hindu/Buddhist and have deep love for Indus valley civilization.
If India wants forgiveness for Muslim occupation then ask of it from the Arabs , Afghans, Persians and central Asians who were the conquerors because Pakistanis never had an empire it was Afghan & Persian barbarians that sacked Lahore and Delhi and came to plunder the great wealth of the subcontinent . We were simply part of an empire just like the rest of Indian sub-continent and only shared the religion of the invaders.
Though I agree with the rest of what you say.

Bravo!

 

[Tiger Genie]

Tharoor makes no new ground in this but surely is a good summary of state of affairs.

Going by the Pakistani comments, it is again becoming clear why truth has no place in their lives and how they continue to pay ransom to their military.

 

[TMA]

Your welcome. Actually I'm probably one of the few Pakistanis on this forum than be objective on this issue and can probably empathize with the Hindu Indian perspective when it comes to Islamic conquest. Their opinion on Muslim incursions is one of the rare things I do side with Indians on as I like to put religious bias aside. Though I am pleasantly surprised to find there are also few other Pakistanis here who have similar opinions on this part of South Asian history.
I don't see it as "Hindu v Muslim" thing as many Pakistanis do which why they like the foreign conquerors (Muslims) for spreading their religion but rather "native v invader" view which why I can agree with the Hindu stance(natives) even though I am Muslim myself.
Hopefully maybe one day we can all come to mutually satisfactory solution, put all animosity aside and just live in peace.

Islam really spread into the hearts of the natives of the Indus region and beyond due to the sincere influence of those who followed Ihsaan. Armies came and went but their effect in converting the natives from their ancestral religion was little. No doubt oppresion was used however it has been exaggerated by those who cannot stomach the fact that many natives of the South Asia willingly accepted Islam.

 

[Joe Shearer]

1. Yes, we have the lower ground to make sure you don't try and go in deeper. You just control the upper ground. Look it up.

He is right, actually. But you may not wish to acknowledge that and to have to retract the earlier very brave statements made.

2. India helped dissent in Pakistan before Pakistan helped dissent in India, so this is just evidence of India wanting to break up and take territories away from Pakistan to make it suffer.

Are you aware of armed attack by state-sponsored armed men in Kashmir in 1947?

Are you aware of Pakistani activity in Mizoram in the Indian north-east, from 1966 onwards? Are you aware that this came to light and to public knowledge when Pakistan Army formations came across them in Chittagong in 1971?

Are you aware of any Indian help to dissent in Pakistan earlier than these two occurrences?

3. Huge deal? No, but it does prove intentions of other countries.

Isn't that scraping the bottom of the barrel a bit, as arguments go?

4. Google it.

Google what? If you are so confident about your information, why do you find it so difficult to give the forum a URL? Does it exist?

5. Whatever you want to call them, they fought with the army and don't technically count as they weren't used for any terrorist activities. Besides, I am sure at time India did the same.

They did not fight with the Army. They were led by a handful of Pakistan Army officers 'on leave', but the bulk of them were terrorists. Read up the massacre at Baramula and the massacre at Rajauri, both their doing, before you tell us so glibly that they did not participate in terrorist activities.

There was no similar activity or similar element on the Indian side. None.

There was unarmed resistance by civilians in Baramula (since you know so little, there is little point telling you this, but you might like to look up Shervani Chowk in Baramula and find out what that was about)

6. I guess so.

Presumably this is the point at which we should collapse in shock, at your not contesting a point bitterly, with a lot of fireworks and nothing of substance.

7. You cannot compare the two things, apples and oranges. Beef is food, a lot of people in India only have cows for meat, so what else should they eat?

This is hilarious. There are several hundred times more goats, and as for chicken:


Production
1 China 3,874,734,962
2 United States of America 1,974,264,353
3 Indonesia 1,248,835,527
4 Brazil 1,853,658,325
5 India 683,375,274
6 Mexico 543,756,823
7 Russia 352,861,904
8 Iran 312,593,657
9 Japan 286,374,862
10 Turkey 264,782,439

Drawing Muhammad is just being an @sshole with the intention of pissing people off. Besides, if you want to do it so much, do it in a country that isn't filled with Muslims. Can't find one? Tough.

There is nothing as entertaining as an ill-informed fanatic.Iranians have been in the practice of portraying Hazrat Mohammed since time immemorial. Educate yourself a bit, maybe?

We had a choice, and Musharaf chose to help them 100% whilst also helping the Taliban. We should have just stayed out of it, we couldn't have won this no matter what we did.

Let that track record speak for itself, when people talk about their relationship with the US.

As for beef, still waiting for those murders to be prosecuted.

Please don't sweat it over minor issues. Our judicial system is alive and active.

When it comes to drawing cartoons, that is completely different. Eating food to stop starving and drawing cartoons to piss people off are very different things, if you can't recognise that then please don't bother replying as this conversation will go nowhere.

Your sense of priorities is encouraging.

 

[Max]

Bash Pakistan=good assessment

Praise Pakistan=foolish assessment

Bharti logic...

Thats called great assessment dear Bhartis

2nd why a bharti has to do assessment regarding Pakistan which 60 out of 70 years have higher per capita then your country despite big defense expenditure??

did they solve problems of more poor in India then whole Africa, or 650 million toiletless people so now they are discussing Pakistan? what about 23% India according to world bank which never experience electricity in their lives?

Take care of your shit first, let us sort out ours.. we are enough to assess ours, no need of bhangis talking about my people..

 

[Joe Shearer]

1. Still in a war situation, India was the first to use militants outside of wartime situation.

I notice that you flatly ignore information that does not suit your singular view of past events. I have already pointed to the discovery of the encouragement of the Mizos. Did you not read? Or did you not comprehend? Or do you wish not to know about something that doesn't agree with your position?

2. I wasnt arguing, I was agreeing.

My mistake.

3. Are you so lazy that you won't Google it? Or are you just afraid of being wrong?

Ask your seniors. I just don't like uppity squibs making a vague remark and then pretending that it has justification. This one has none, and you have been tap-dancing around it.

4. Majority of them we Pakistani soldiers and locals fighting for freedom from Indian oppressors.

Balls. Both Akbar Khan and Tariq Ali contradict your statement.

5. At this point I will tell you to f*ck off you condescending pr*ck.

Of course you will. Which young pup likes having his nose rubbed in his own mess? I can understand your frustration, but not your refusal to learn from the records.

6. Not everyone will have a goat or chicken, and if beef is sold in public shops, people in your country are going to have to accept that it isn't there just for show.

Are you in your senses when you claim that those who do not have goats or chickens will have cattle?

7. Iranians have a very different view on Islam, maybe you should educate yourself first.

It's on record. It isn't a question of your opinion about their different view on Islam. You made a statement, and now you claim exemptions on sectarian grounds. Just shows who needs education.

8. We had a choice, you can't prove to me otherwise.

Of course not. Musharraf is told that he and his country will be bombed into the Stone Age, and he then takes a considered and deliberate choice and decides not to be bombed into the Stone Age. Sure you had a choice.

9. It isn't minor of it has occurred several times, clearly you aren't dealing with them properly. Maybe it's because you don't want to?

Maybe.

Now go out and ask anyone how they rate the judicial systems of the two countries.

You obviously don't currently draw cartoons that much, as you have almost as many Muslim's as we do and we have seen what happens to people who do that in the past. And I doubt you ever will considering you banned Salman Rushdie's book and him from being in India.

As for cows, you can ban it all you want but people will still continue to eat it publicly and privately.

More ignorance.

It is banned in some states and not banned in others. So what? The Punjab bans both beef and pork, others ban only beef, the entire north-east and Goa eat both; so what is the conclusion you are trying to draw?

 

[Hamza913]

I notice that you flatly ignore information that does not suit your singular view of past events. I have already pointed to the discovery of the encouragement of the Mizos. Did you not read? Or did you not comprehend? Or do you wish not to know about something that doesn't agree with your position?



My mistake.



Ask your seniors. I just don't like uppity squibs making a vague remark and then pretending that it has justification. This one has none, and you have been tap-dancing around it.



Balls. Both Akbar Khan and Tariq Ali contradict your statement.



Of course you will. Which young pup likes having his nose rubbed in his own mess? I can understand your frustration, but not your refusal to learn from the records.



Are you in your senses when you claim that those who do not have goats or chickens will have cattle?



It's on record. It isn't a question of your opinion about their different view on Islam. You made a statement, and now you claim exemptions on sectarian grounds. Just shows who needs education.



Of course not. Musharraf is told that he and his country will be bombed into the Stone Age, and he then takes a considered and deliberate choice and decides not to be bombed into the Stone Age. Sure you had a choice.



Maybe.

Now go out and ask anyone how they rate the judicial systems of the two countries.



More ignorance.

It is banned in some states and not banned in others. So what? The Punjab bans both beef and pork, others ban only beef, the entire north-east and Goa eat both; so what is the conclusion you are trying to draw?

This is obviously fruitless so I'm not wasting my time, your not worth it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

This is obviously fruitless so I'm not wasting my time, your not worth it.

Oh, but you are. One rarely gets this treat.

Actually "Pakistan" did not subjugate them we were only born in 47 and were carved from British India via referendum and we have nothing to apologize for most of us acknowledge our ancestors were probably Hindu/Buddhist and have deep love for Indus valley civilization.
If India wants forgiveness for Muslim occupation then ask of it from the Arabs , Afghans, Persians and central Asians who were the conquerors because Pakistanis never had an empire it was Afghan & Persian barbarians that sacked Lahore and Delhi and came to plunder the great wealth of the subcontinent . We were simply part of an empire just like the rest of Indian sub-continent and only shared the religion of the invaders.
Though I agree with the rest of what you say.

I think both posts were excellent. Thank you @Sinopakfriend , for a very sensitive post, and thank you, @khanz , for an equally mature and balanced response. My entertainment with an unfortunate buffoon who had wandered into this forum stopped me from reading and appreciating your truly refreshing exchange, and I regret it. Please continue. There is so much maturity of thought and sensitivity in your posts.

This relieves my current feeling of cynicism towards recent posts, I have to admit. I wish your post is read by @chauism, @Sinopakfriend , as I am sure he would appreciate it. You on your part, @khanz, could consider a suggestion from my side to tag @Arsalan , and @Tripoli , who are both deep, calm minds full of valuable insight and balance; there are others, of course, such as Oscar and Niaz Sahib, but that is well above my own level.

It was a pleasure reading your posts.

 

[Tripoli]

Oh, but you are. One rarely gets this treat.



I think both posts were excellent. Thank you @Sinopakfriend , for a very sensitive post, and thank you, @khanz , for an equally mature and balanced response. My entertainment with an unfortunate buffoon who had wandered into this forum stopped me from reading and appreciating your truly refreshing exchange, and I regret it. Please continue. There is so much maturity of thought and sensitivity in your posts.

This relieves my current feeling of cynicism towards recent posts, I have to admit. I wish your post is read by @chauism, @Sinopakfriend , as I am sure he would appreciate it. You on your part, @khanz, could consider a suggestion from my side to tag @Arsalan , and @Tripoli , who are both deep, calm minds full of valuable insight and balance; there are others, of course, such as Oscar and Niaz Sahib, but that is well above my own level.

It was a pleasure reading your posts.

Yes, I must say @khanz and @Sinopakfriend 's posts are truly jewels in the barren desert(of pdf). If only we had such people on both sides of the border.

 

[Arsalan]

First and far most solution is acceptance by both sides that their is a hugh problem. An open and honest recognition. Away from lobbies and media pundits.

Second is math. They need to do the math. How much per capita development will it bring if there is permanent peace. And what is total cost of this current stand off.

Third stage... and painful one forgiveness. Indians must forgive Pak for subjogating them (100yr or 1000yr doesn't matter. And Pak must accept this deep feeling of pain on Indian side and ask forgiveness for injustice.

Final stage... open the Kashmir borders... let them be under your joint protection and let them use both of your currencies... Agree on river water distribution. No body looses face or political capital.

Do trade and expand development. The proglem is both side are stuck deep and need a face saving way out.

Simple an elegant solution which makes no one loose face.

Regarding 1000yr business. Your country men can be quite aggressive and abusive so rather not go into this discussion. IF the a rational discussion is possible then it will be educational for all of us. Kindly remember history is never absolute.

I would be rather more interested in the lost Vedas and their origin than divisions and anger.

Bless you.. at least you have the goodness to call me your brother!

There are some little things you may want to get more information about but overall, thanks for sharing you views. The intention was nice and you i see no harm in people presenting various solutions. Who knows we can actually work out something based on all that feedback.
I understand you remarks of avoiding going into such details but best way to do is is not to bring those into the discussion in the first place. Once such things are quoted and especially when they are wrong and cannot be backed by actual sources, things often get derailed (people are way too happy trying to pounce on any opportunity to ridicule other as they think this is what patriotism is). I hope you understand. Thanks again for your views and the kind intent

Actually "Pakistan" did not subjugate them we were only born in 47 and were carved from British India via referendum and we have nothing to apologize for most of us acknowledge our ancestors were probably Hindu/Buddhist and have deep love for Indus valley civilization.
If India wants forgiveness for Muslim occupation then ask of it from the Arabs , Afghans, Persians and central Asians who were the conquerors because Pakistanis never had an empire it was Afghan & Persian barbarians that sacked Lahore and Delhi and came to plunder the great wealth of the subcontinent . We were simply part of an empire just like the rest of Indian sub-continent and only shared the religion of the invaders.
Though I agree with the rest of what you say.

Well thank you for trying to explain the things they way you did. This is exactly what we require sir, a sensible discussion where both parties are open to listening to the other side and the ones explaining are doing so to share there views and correct the mistakes, NOT to ridicule other. Thanks a lot!

And @Joe Shearer thank you sir for guiding me to another wonderful debate here

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

There are some little things you may want to get more information about but overall, thanks for sharing you views. The intention was nice and you i see no harm in people presenting various solutions. Who knows we can actually work out something based on all that feedback.
I understand you remarks of avoiding going into such details but best way to do is is not to bring those into the discussion in the first place. Once such things are quoted and especially when they are wrong and cannot be backed by actual sources, things often get derailed (people are way too happy trying to pounce on any opportunity to ridicule other as they think this is what patriotism is). I hope you understand. Thanks again for your views and the kind intent


Well thank you for trying to explain the things they way you did. This is exactly what we require sir, a sensible discussion where both parties are open to listening to the other side and the ones explaining are doing so to share there views and correct the mistakes, NOT to ridicule other. Thanks a lot!

And @Joe Shearer thank you sir for guiding me to another wonderful debate here

Dear Arsalan, thank you for your kind feedback.

One has no dog in this fight.

Already had a brief brush with what you mentioned in your reply and decided not engage in such things hence forward.

One wishes both of your countries well. Both have huge potential. Independent from each other and certainly without mutual comparison.

For my small country we have one small perspective: de heel de wereld is uw vaderland mijn zoon.
The entire world is your motherland my son.

Wish you all peace and progress.

However, it is also nature of our citizen to speak their blief with respect to others. With sincere intention one would like to continue stating ones perspective.

 

[Arsalan]

Dear Arsalan, thank you for your kind feedback.

One has no dog in this fight.

Already had a brief brush with what you mentioned in your reply and decided not engage in such things hence forward.

One wishes both of your countries well. Both have huge potential. Independent from each other and certainly without mutual comparison.

For my small country we have one small perspective: de heel de wereld is uw vaderland mijn zoon.
The entire world is your motherland my son.

Wish you all peace and progress.

However, it is also nature of our citizen to speak their blief with respect to others. With sincere intention one would like to continue stating ones perspective.

Well i cannot see you flag so i do not know what small country you are from but i sure will love to know that.

Enjoy your stay here dear and have great time. Thank you for you valuable input.

Regards!

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Bless you! How does one add these flags? Do forgive this older person

 

[volatile]

Regarding non Indian involvement