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Nice assesment of Pakistan by Dr Shashi Tharoor

I assure you I would neither be aggressive nor abusive... I'm just intrigued to hear that “Pakistanis ruled over Indians for a thousand years". My history books sadly missed those chapters which dealt with the timeline when Pakistanis ruled over Indians. I just wanted you to kindly provide a few authentic links pertaining to the same. I'd be very thankful to you for that.. Good Luck.

No, kind sir, India and Pakistan are new contstructs...
If you are so inclined kindly start a dedicated thread... then we can discuss it.
Of course, purpose of history books is not objective but subjective.

A brief question for you: What is the origin of word Hindu? Ancient no doubt... but do help understanding. Thank you.

Also thank for assurance of no violence and no abuse.
 
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First and far most solution is acceptance by both sides that their is a hugh problem. An open and honest recognition. Away from lobbies and media pundits.

Second is math. They need to do the math. How much per capita development will it bring if there is permanent peace. And what is total cost of this current stand off.

Third stage... and painful one forgiveness. Indians must forgive Pak for subjogating them (100yr or 1000yr doesn't matter. And Pak must accept this deep feeling of pain on Indian side and ask forgiveness for injustice.

Final stage... open the Kashmir borders... let them be under your joint protection and let them use both of your currencies... Agree on river water distribution. No body looses face or political capital.

Do trade and expand development. The proglem is both side are stuck deep and need a face saving way out.

Simple an elegant solution which makes no one loose face.

Regarding 1000yr business. Your country men can be quite agressive and abusive so rather not go into this discussion. IF the a rational discussion is possible then it will be educational for all of us. Kindly remember history is never absolute.

I would be rather more interested in the lost Vedas and their origin than divisions and anger.

Bless you.. at least you have the goodness to call me your brother!

Actually "Pakistan" did not subjugate them we were only born in 47 and were carved from British India via referendum and we have nothing to apologize for most of us acknowledge our ancestors were probably Hindu/Buddhist and have deep love for Indus valley civilization.
If India wants forgiveness for Muslim occupation then ask of it from the Arabs , Afghans, Persians and central Asians who were the conquerors because Pakistanis never had an empire it was Afghan & Persian barbarians that sacked Lahore and Delhi and came to plunder the great wealth of the subcontinent . We were simply part of an empire just like the rest of Indian sub-continent and only shared the religion of the invaders.
Though I agree with the rest of what you say.
 
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Actually "Pakistan" did not subjugate them we were only born in 47 and were carved from British India via referendum and we have nothing to apologize for most of us acknowledge our ancestors were probably Hindu/Buddhist and have deep love for Indus valley civilization.
If India wants forgiveness for Muslim occupation then ask of it from the Arabs , Afghans, Persians and central Asians who were the conquerors because Pakistanis never had an empire it was Afghan & Persian barbarians that sacked Lahore and Delhi and came to plunder the great wealth of the subcontinent . We were simply part of an empire just like the rest of Indian sub-continent and only shared the religion of the invaders.
Though I agree with the rest of what you say.

Thank for your kind reply. Certainly a different perspective.

Whatever helps to find a lasting peace is surely much better than senseless violence.
 
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Thank for your kind reply. Certainly a different perspective.

Whatever helps to find a lasting peace is surely much better than senseless violence.

Your welcome. Actually I'm probably one of the few Pakistanis on this forum than be objective on this issue and can probably empathize with the Hindu Indian perspective when it comes to Islamic conquest. Their opinion on Muslim incursions is one of the rare things I do side with Indians on as I like to put religious bias aside. Though I am pleasantly surprised to find there are also few other Pakistanis here who have similar opinions on this part of South Asian history.
I don't see it as "Hindu v Muslim" thing as many Pakistanis do which why they like the foreign conquerors (Muslims) for spreading their religion but rather "native v invader" view which why I can agree with the Hindu stance(natives) even though I am Muslim myself.
Hopefully maybe one day we can all come to mutually satisfactory solution, put all animosity aside and just live in peace.
 
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Your welcome. Actually I'm probably one of the few Pakistanis on this forum than be objective on this issue and can probably empathize with the Hindu Indian perspective when it comes to Islamic conquest. Their opinion on Muslim incursions is one of the rare things I do side with Indians on as I like to put religious bias aside. Though I am pleasantly surprised to find there are also few other Pakistanis here who have similar opinions on this part of South Asian history.
I don't see it as "Hindu v Muslim" thing as many Pakistanis do which why they like the foreign conquerors (Muslims) for spreading their religion but rather "native v invader" view which why I can agree with the Hindu stance(natives) even though I am Muslim myself.
Hopefully maybe one day we can all come to mutually satisfactory solution, put all animosity aside and just live in peace.

Peace and progress is far better than senseless nationalism. But identity politics the world over bring votes..
My perspective is that of a foreigner looking from distant Europe. Hence the suggestion for peaceful resolution of issues.

Great to see that you enjoy an open mind. A closed perpective breeds blindness. Purpose of life must be learning
 
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He didn't say so; he said we claim it. Wanting it and claiming it for other purposes are two different things altogether.



Incorrect.
  • Pakistani troops had got there first, but not set up permanent positions.
  • We are on both the eastern and the widest4
  • As far as wanting the rest of it is concerned, we gain nothing but access to Pakistani territory. We have similar topographical advantages at the Haji Pir Pass; how has that helped us? Are we planning to occupy Islamabad? If not, why on earth would we want access to Pakistani territory?


Go back to the original point. If we wanted it, we could have asked for it, and kept it away from Pakistan. There is nothing Pakistan could have done, about that, or about NWFP. We stuck to the legal positions, you didn't. We still do, you still don't.



We took nothing. There was an exchange of tiny enclaves, and Bangladesh got 50% more than she gave away. Nobody can agree to something that never happened.



Read your own Tariq Ali, read your own Akbar Khan.They were not paramilitaries.



You didn't make the mistake of helping the US. That makes it sound so reluctant, so passive, so neutral....you jumped enthusiastically into, not one but two alliances with them,into the Asian equivalent of NATO. That was not reluctant acquiescence, that was girlish enthusiasm. And you used the American arms and ammunitions exclusively against India for three decades.



Just at the moment, we seem to be just a whisker ahead of you. Perhaps you could address those gaps first.

More and more lies/exaggerations. No point wasting my time with them. All I will say is that we shouldn't have helped the US in Afghanistan after 9/11, and you can be killed for eating beef in India.
 
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More and more lies/exaggerations. No point wasting my time with them. All I will say is that we shouldn't have helped the US in Afghanistan after 9/11, and you can be killed for eating beef in India.

You didn't have a choice with US. They didn't give you one.

Regarding the useless beef comment, it is not a state policy. Anyone who kills anyone else in India will be prosecuted and jailed irrespective of their religion and affiliation.
Let me know the official stance of your govt on drawing of certain types of animations...
 
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★ Has India ever pressed its claim on P0K, either by diplomatic or military means? While on multiple occasions, India has showed her willingness to convert LOC into IB. India is the status quo power in the Kashmir conflict, not the revisionist one.

★ Nope.. Not a single inch of Siachen is under Pak control. Indian and Pakistani forces are arrayed at the eastern and western side of Saltoro Ridge respectively, and all of Siachen is in the east of Saltoro ridge. Be kind enough to provide me any sources that claim Pakistan controls anything east of Saltoro ridge.

★ Again.. India doesn't want to “take Baluchistan away" from Pakistan. Indian support to groups like BLA isn't meant to dismember Pakistan, but to bleed her and keep the Pak forces and Intel agencies occupied in their home, so that they can't plot mischief in India. A payback of sorts for all Pakistan has done and keeps doing in Kashmir.

★ Capturing spies isn't such a huge deal as you've been making it out to be. A few weeks ago, India also caught a few ISI spies from near Garden Reach Shipbuilding in Kolkata, that doesn't mean Pakistan has ‘evil designs' on Kolkata.. right? Spies are an essential part of HUMINT. Why so much hue and cry over one guy?

★ No bro.. India hasn't taken any territory from Bangladesh, it has actually given territory to Bangladesh. I have no idea where you're getting such news from. Can you please post a link which proves your claim.?

★ Ummm.. No. They were not paramilitaries. They were irregular militias. You're confusing the Pashtun marauders with the Gilgit scouts. A few good history books might help.

★ I never said the Afghan Taliban and the LeT attack Pakistan. I said that you created a cute and cuddly virus and thought you're immune to it. But the virus had a mind of its own. It mutated and became self sustainable. It went out of control. The AT and the LeT aren't the virus, they're just the symptoms. The virus is “Islamic Radicalism ".

★ Name a few countries where I can draw a cartoon of Muhammad and still feel perfectly safe. If its not possible in a very stable, liberal, secular society like the France or Britain, then I don't think its possible anywhere.

1. Yes, we have the lower ground to make sure you don't try and go in deeper. You just control the upper ground. Look it up.

2. India helped dissent in Pakistan before Pakistan helped dissent in India, so this is just evidence of India wanting to break up and take territories away from Pakistan to make it suffer.

3. Huge deal? No, but it does prove intentions of other countries.

4. Google it.

5. Whatever you want to call them, they fought with the army and don't technically count as they weren't used for any terrorist activities. Besides, I am sure at time India did the same.

6. I guess so.

7. You cannot compare the two things, apples and oranges. Beef is food, a lot of people in India only have cows for meat, so what else should they eat? Drawing Muhammad is just being an @sshole with the intention of pissing people off. Besides, if you want to do it so much, do it in a country that isn't filled with Muslims. Can't find one? Tough.

You didn't have a choice with US. They didn't give you one.

Regarding the useless beef comment, it is not a state policy. Anyone who kills anyone else in India will be prosecuted and jailed irrespective of their religion and affiliation.
Let me know the official stance of your govt on drawing of certain types of animations...

We had a choice, and Musharaf chose to help them 100% whilst also helping the Taliban. We should have just stayed out of it, we couldn't have won this no matter what we did.

As for beef, still waiting for those murders to be prosecuted.

When it comes to drawing cartoons, that is completely different. Eating food to stop starving and drawing cartoons to piss people off are very different things, if you can't recognise that then please don't bother replying as this conversation will go nowhere.
 
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We had a choice, and Musharaf chose to help them 100% whilst also helping the Taliban. We should have just stayed out of it, we couldn't have won this no matter what we did.

As for beef, still waiting for those murders to be prosecuted.

When it comes to drawing cartoons, that is completely different. Eating food to stop starving and drawing cartoons to piss people off are very different things, if you can't recognise that then please don't bother replying as this conversation will go nowhere.

No you didn't. Please educate yourself. US basically gave you a Hobson's choice.

The murderers are being prosecuted. the wait is normal in all countries, unless they are dictatorial ones.

No one is stopping anyone from eating food. People don't die if they don't eat beef. There are a lot animals you can still kill and consue without any objecton. People don't eat dogs, cats and a lot of other animals. I don't see all these starving. they are eating chiken, Goat, lamb and pigs and are very healthy..
Coming to cartoons, you say it is to piss off people eh...NO, it's my choice to draw anything I want as a free man. if it offends you, stop looking at it but don't take away my freedom to draw what I want.

SEE what I did there...If eating anything is your right, drawing anything is my right as well.
BUT, you claim drawing if offensive to you, so is some one killing a cow to me.
BUT, you will conveniently ignore what is offensive to me...WHY IS THAT?
 
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More and more lies/exaggerations. No point wasting my time with them. All I will say is that we shouldn't have helped the US in Afghanistan after 9/11, and you can be killed for eating beef in India.

If you do not point them out with facts backing your contradictions, the impression will remain in our minds that you have in fact nothing to say of any tangible nature.

As for whether or not you should or should not have helped the US in Afghanistan after 9/11, at that time, you had no choice. Do you understand, even remotely, what danger you faced, and how astutely your then leadership turned defeat into victory?

Yes, you can be killed for eating beef in India. You can also be killed, if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, for being a Hindu. I eat beef, and so far I am alive, although I am now forbidden red meat. So that is a generalisation which is pointless, considering that beef is a staple diet in most of the north-eastern states.
 
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No you didn't. Please educate yourself. US basically gave you a Hobson's choice.

The murderers are being prosecuted. the wait is normal in all countries, unless they are dictatorial ones.

No one is stopping anyone from eating food. People don't die if they don't eat beef. There are a lot animals you can still kill and consue without any objecton. People don't eat dogs, cats and a lot of other animals. I don't see all these starving. they are eating chiken, Goat, lamb and pigs and are very healthy..
Coming to cartoons, you say it is to piss off people eh...NO, it's my choice to draw anything I want as a free man. if it offends you, stop looking at it but don't take away my freedom to draw what I want.

SEE what I did there...If eating anything is your right, drawing anything is my right as well.
BUT, you claim drawing if offensive to you, so is some one killing a cow to me.
BUT, you will conveniently ignore what is offensive to me...WHY IS THAT?

I have done my reasearch, anyone claiming Pakistan didn't have an option lying through their teeth. As for eating and drawing, if you don't eat you can starve, if you don't draw no problems will arise. See the difference?
 
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I have done my reasearch, anyone claiming Pakistan didn't have an option lying through their teeth. As for eating and drawing, if you don't eat you can starve, if you don't draw no problems will arise. See the difference?

No you haven't done your research. I will leave it at that since we won't agree on this.

Huh, let me know if anyone starves if I draw cartoons? No one starves either, so, why are you objecting to it?
 
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If you do not point them out with facts backing your contradictions, the impression will remain in our minds that you have in fact nothing to say of any tangible nature.

As for whether or not you should or should not have helped the US in Afghanistan after 9/11, at that time, you had no choice. Do you understand, even remotely, what danger you faced, and how astutely your then leadership turned defeat into victory?

Yes, you can be killed for eating beef in India. You can also be killed, if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, for being a Hindu. I eat beef, and so far I am alive, although I am now forbidden red meat. So that is a generalisation which is pointless, considering that beef is a staple diet in most of the north-eastern states.

Even if I do provide facts, you won't believe me will you? No, of course not. Your going to be adamant you were correct, and nothing else, just like I will be.

As for whether or not we had a choice, we most certainly did. Anyone who says otherwise is lying, end of story.

As for eating beef, you should be able to do it with no worry's at all.
 
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No you haven't done your research. I will leave it at that since we won't agree on this.

Huh, let me know if anyone starves if I draw cartoons? No one starves either, so, why are you objecting to it?

I have done my reasearch, you are just making claims based on debunked rumours. We will leave it at that.

Nobody starves if you draw cartoons, but there will always be someone who will try and kill you. Stopping you from doing it protects you, you should be thanking us.

And you should be able to draw cartoons with no worry at all either.

Yeah but you can't, harsh fact you will have to accept.
 
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