Newspaper claims 'Pakistan must learn democracy from India'

[Joe Shearer]

Is India really a democracy?

At the heart of all problems lies the politics of the country. We opted for democracy as our political system. But I have been wondering for quite some time - how democratic is Indian polity?

Indian polity has failed to provide solutions to the common man's problems. If a government teacher plays truant or does not teach properly, can the parents do anything about it? Or if a doctor in a government hospital does not treat properly or does not give medicines? What can a poor person do if the ration shop keeper openly siphons off rations? Or what can any one of us do if the policeman refuses to register my FIR or registers a false case against us?

We cannot do anything about it. We can only complain to higher authorities who do not act upon our complaints. So, the citizens do not have any control over government employees.

We also do not have any control over government funds. Sundernagari, a slum in East Delhi does not have a secondary school, water, sewer, etc. The people have been demanding these things for ages. But the government says there are no funds. But the government made fountains worth Rs 60 lakh a few years back. Obviously the people did not need fountains. These fountains did not work for a single day, even on the inauguration day, because there is no water!

Likewise, we see that the same footpaths and roads are broken and repaired again and again. But the road in front of my house never gets repaired.

So we, the citizens of India, do not have any control over government funds. Government money is our money. We pay taxes. Even a beggar on the street pays tax - when he buys a piece of soap, he pays sales tax and many other taxes. All this money belongs to us. And we have absolutely no control over it?

We also do not have any control over government policies or the kind of laws passed by our legislatures. Recently, the government introduced Nuclear Civil Liability Bill. It seeks to cap the liability of a foreign company to just Rs 500 crore in the event of an accident on its nuclear reactor. It will have no criminal liability. I thought the government was playing with our lives. Almost selling our lives. And why is the government doing this? Some companies seem to be lobbying for this Bill. And we, the people of India, have no say in it?

So, we have no control over government employees, government funds, government policies. Is this democracy? Just vote once in five years and then plead before the same people who you voted to power? Or plead before the officials who take salary out of your taxes?

We have a democracy of elections to elections. After winning an election, the parties become brazen and arrogant. They would do all wrong things and if you question them, they would say - why don't you change the government next time? But that would be five years later. What do I do right now? I am suffering right now.

Right to Information is a small concrete step in making our polity more democratic. In this bizarre democracy of elections to elections, it has given power to the people to "just question" the governments. Is it not time to move a step forward and demand some kind of direct participation in government decision making? Is that possible?

For The People : Arvind Kejriwal's blog-The Times Of India

If you are so interested, you are welcome to join the Facebook group 'Fed up with Team Anna'.

There is nothing very much to this bunch of self-absorbed middle class wannabes, who propose to place a huge bureaucracy to watch over another, even more huge bureaucracy. The trouble with letting administrative naifs like them (Kiran Bedi included) is that they have no clue about the administrative and practical consequences of their actions.

Nobody denies that there are problems with Indian, or any other, democracy. Yet, if asked, none of those bitching about conditions in their respective patches, not even mollycoddled bred in Britain Pakistani hyper-patriots, would elect for the Pakistani system instead.

 

[Icewolf]

Democracy will always provide, but not in the case of Pakistan , where there is no fully non corrupt party except PTI... Mark my words if Zardari and Nawaz Sharif get elected again,Pakistan will be worse condition..

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

And that is better than your time-tested model of choosing one rotten egg out of one?

Well sir we did follow the Indian model of democracy and got Mr Zardari as our elected president

The problem with voting system in India or even in Pakistan is that peoples cast vote on the basis of religion/caste, dynasty, region, ethnicities etc and most of the voters are even illiterate. So when you have two corrupt politicians to choose from then it don't make any difference if you choose person A or person B. All politicians try to be humble and portray themselves as saint and walk on roads and streets as they are part of common peoples but after they win election then they get disappear lol

Can any ordinary person without any political affiliation with any major political parties become minister or president? You see the different faces of same two major political parties again and again..

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Its no surprise to see that all presidents, prime ministers and even deputy prime ministers of India were born before india got independence . You have to be a very old baba of politics to become president or prime minister of India

 

[Speaker]

Caste power, money power and muscle power are the factors which determine the shape of Indian politics and any party who have got these power will get the success. Elections are considered as investment where you cannot win without spending/investing money. What is so special about Indians democracy ? You just have to chose one rotten egg out of many and nothing else

Who says Democracy is perfect? In fact it has glaring flaws in its very concept. But it is better than every other form of governance - and at least gives people an opportunity to reassess their options and implementing change.

As for muscle power and money power, please google 'citizens united ruling' and the influence it has had on rogue campaign spending on behalf of both US presidential candidates by Super PACs. Pakistanis have a biased opinion of Indian democracy, but I am hoping you wouldn't question America's democracy. When you get into the details of the power nexuses and convoluted connections in American politics, you realize our own politicians are angels in comparison. You live in the UK, so you are witness to the secrets coming out of the connection between Cameron and Rupert Murdoch. Do you realize when the executive and the press get in bed, what it means for a democracy? Yet you wouldn't question the validity of their democracy. I am not defending the majority of the jokers that get elected to our parliament, just giving you some perspective.

Its no surprise to see that all presidents, prime ministers and even deputy prime ministers of India were born before india got independence . You have to be a very old baba of politics to become president or prime minister of India

1 billion people in a patriarchal society - by the time you earn your stripes and get your party's nomination, you are 70 years old! The other option is dynastic politics and people have a problem with that as well.

President is a ceremonial position and I would feel weird if it is a young person

By the way, can you make up your mind if the Indian version is good or bad? You are pointing out the differences between our democracies and yet we have thrived while you have had martial law for most of your history. So maybe the flawed version is the best version?

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

My personal view is that certain conditions have to be met before democracy may thrive in a nation. The destruction of tribalism & feudalism is among some of the most crucial tasks on that list. A citizen's loyalty must firstly be towards the state & the state alone. In a tribal society for instance, an individual is likely to be more loyal to the tribe instead of the nation as a whole. This has a major disadvantage, if the head of the tribe was to run for some sort of elections, who do you think the members of the tribe would vote for? They would vote for their leader of course, with complete disregard of the competencies of that individual. Granted, this was a poor example, but in my opinion, it elucidates the scenario perfectly.

Another requirement for a democracy is a strong & corruption free judicial system. The reasons necessitating the requirements for a corruption free & strong judicial system should be clear enough to every individual. The prevalence of law & order aids in dealing with the society's grievances & prevents them from disintegrating. A multicultural society has a dire need for the prevalence of law & order, or that nation risks the chance of balkanization. Besides, a strong judiciary will get rid of corrupt politicians or leaders if the need ever so arises, & enforce the constitution of a country.

The 3rd thing democracy requires is the elimination of illiteracy or the lack of education in general. My opinion is that an uneducated person is not capable of making an informed decision while voting for a leader. He or she is likely to fall for campaign speeches or propaganda, & may quite possibly be influenced by social peers.

Thus, when the above 3 conditions are met, democracy has a greater chance of prevailing. In modern Pakistan, these conditions haven't been met at all. That is one of the reasons democracy does poorly in our country. As for whom we should learn democracy from? My suggestion would be to learn democracy from its creators themselves; the ancient Greeks. Sadly, they are no longer with us, & modern Greeks lack the prestige of their ancestors.

As of now I feel that the best form of governance is to be ruled by a wise & benevolent dictator. The question is; where do we find such an individual? Will we be as lucky as those who appointed Saul? I doubt it, & even if we do find such a person, how will we ensure that every successor is better or at least as capable as the former? There are ways to do that of course, but I might discuss that another time. Until then, these were my views, I might be wrong, but we are all here to learn. Thus, I am willing to correct myself if my current views turn out to be complete crap.

 

[Joe Shearer]

My personal view is that certain conditions have to be met before democracy may thrive in a nation. The destruction of tribalism & feudalism is among some of the most crucial tasks on that list. A citizen's loyalty must firstly be towards the state & the state alone. In a tribal society for instance, an individual is likely to be more loyal to the tribe instead of the nation as a whole. This has a major disadvantage, if the head of the tribe was to run for some sort of elections, who do you think the members of the tribe would vote for? They would vote for their leader of course, with complete disregard of the competencies of that individual. Granted, this was a poor example, but in my opinion, it elucidates the scenario perfectly.

Not a poor example, by any means, perhaps, contrary to what you said, you could have gone further.

It is perfectly true that feudalism is a major obstacle for democratic functioning. During our first few, the first three or four General Elections, the princes had considerable influence. To set this in perspective, more than 95% of the 560 or so princes before independence landed up in India. It took time for this overwhelming loyalty to wear away, and for normal voter motivations to kick in.

You might have added - unless you omitted it for the purpose of keeping your sentences light and readable - the pernicious influence of caste and tribe. However, these two influences show signs of withering away and families are reacting to economic stimuli, and responding to their growing prosperity by shedding their own past constraints.

Another requirement for a democracy is a strong & corruption free judicial system. The reasons necessitating the requirements for a corruption free & strong judicial system should be clear enough to every individual. The prevalence of law & order aids in dealing with the society's grievances & prevents them from disintegrating. A multicultural society has a dire need for the prevalence of law & order, or that nation risks the chance of balkanization. Besides, a strong judiciary will get rid of corrupt p" is that an uneducated person is not capable of making an informed decision while voting for a leader. He or she is likely to fall for campaign speeches or propaganda, & may quite possibly be influenced by social peers.

Thus, when the above 3 conditions are met, democracy has a greater chance of prevailing. In modern Pakistan, these conditions haven't been met at all. That is one of the reasons democracy does poorly in our country. As for whom we should learn democracy from? My suggestion would be to learn democracy from its creators themselves; the ancient Greeks. Sadly, they are no longer with us, & modern Greeks lack the prestige of their ancestors.

As of now I feel that the best form of governance is to be ruled by a wise & benevolent dictator. The question is; where do we find such an individual? Will we be as lucky as those who appointed Saul? I doubt it, & even if we do find such a person, how will we ensure that every successor is better or at least as capable as the former? There are ways to do that of course, but I might discuss that another time. Until then, these were my views, I might be wrong, but we are all here to learn. Thus, I am willing to correct myself if my current views turn out to be complete crap.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

Not a poor example, by any means, perhaps, contrary to what you said, you could have gone further.

It is perfectly true that feudalism is a major obstacle for democratic functioning. During our first few, the first three or four General Elections, the princes had considerable influence. To set this in perspective, more than 95% of the 560 or so princes before independence landed up in India. It took time for this overwhelming loyalty to wear away, and for normal voter motivations to kick in.

You might have added - unless you omitted it for the purpose of keeping your sentences light and readable - the pernicious influence of caste and tribe. However, these two influences show signs of withering away and families are reacting to economic stimuli, and responding to their growing prosperity by shedding their own past constraints.

Thanks, I agree with you in this case. Economic progress should eliminate or at least reduce tribal, religious, & caste based loyalties for the greater good. The greater good in this scenario would be the overall well being of the country.

The modern concept of a nation state revolves around unity on the basis of nationality or the passport that an individual carries. It has little to do with caste, creed, or tribal affiliations. In spite of all that ethnic divisions still exist in Pakistan, even though the multiple ethnicities in Pakistan are mostly interrelated to an extent. Just imagine the kind of trouble we would face if the ethnic divisions were as vast as those in Britain.

The issue today is the elimination of feudalism & tribalism. I guess feudalism could be eradicated by introducing land reforms & stripping landlords of ownership of vast portions of land. That in turn would free the populace of that region from this archaic form of slavery. In my opinion tribalism is even more difficult to combat than feudalism. People resist change because of fear of the unknown & their reluctance to adopt a new life style. It requires a change in mindset, & that's even more difficult to bring about. Education & development should be useful in this case. Introducing people to the 21st century & getting them to understand the benefits of postmodernity would aid in decreasing tribal ties, but the process is bound to be time consuming & tedious.

I don't mean that people should forget about their tribal affiliations, culture, heritage, or traditions. All that is required from them is that they play an active role for the progress of the largest tribe of their land. That large tribe naturally refers to their nation. I still believe that illiteracy is a major threat to the functioning of democracy in Pakistan. In fact illiteracy is a factor influencing the continued existence of feudalism & tribalism to an extent.