News from within CAC (J-10B and J-20, also Pakistan related)

[DARKY]

Corrections

1. J-10A entered service in 2004 in limited numbers for trials. Mass production did not start until 2006. At about 35 planes per year and the number of aircrafts needed replacement in PLAAF, no way Pakistan would have 2 squadron by now had they placed the order in 2006.

2. JF-17 costs China about $8 million in 2008 terms. Considering Pakistan opted for more advanced avionics, radar as well as inflation factor, even double that price would be quite cheap.

Make that 2008 for that matter(I said 2006 since they would've jumped at me if said 2008/09)...... they could have sacrificed some of their requirements to help PAF with at least one squadron per year.......PLAAF requirements are huge and if they kept sticking to complete that process I doubt PAF would get J-10s before PLAAF has 300-500 of such planes.

Oh I did not know that it was only 8 million $...... thanks for updating.

 

[MastanKhan]

The Sino- PAk partnership was worth 500 million to each party. This is the investment in JFT .The price would be for batch 2 with AESA. You would I am sure understand that even at that price it is still a steal.
I have written at length about the TTejas on the forum. I still dont think it was ever a foolish endeavour and even in failure the IAF and the Indian Aviation industry will come out all the better for it.

Hi,

Is paf fighting with itself --- is that why it is happy with this plane----. JF 17 has to date brought nothing to the table---nothing of any significance----sc-rew the experience-----what do you have to fight the enemy with today----just the 18 BLK 52's---.

If Tejas is a failure----it doesnot do anything to IAF----they still had their heads straight----they had aircraft in their possession that could do the job----. Now they can afford the experience in any which way they want to----but if paf claims to do that----they still got their heads stuck in sand.

Darky,

You are right----between 2002 and 2005---pak could have bought anything with cash upfront-----. It was Musharraf / PAF analysis at that time that there would be peace with india---and the jets would be a waste of money----.

What a bunch of 'comical' warriors and planners of the realm of islam----. Who needs enemies when you have the paf to back you and the pakistani generals to plan the things.

 

[DARKY]

The Sino- PAk partnership was worth 500 million to each party. This is the investment in JFT .The price would be for batch 2 with AESA. You would I am sure understand that even at that price it is still a steal.
I have written at length about the TTejas on the forum. I still dont think it was ever a foolish endeavour and even in failure the IAF and the Indian Aviation industry will come out all the better for it.

I get your point about the role which JF-17 plays in development of aviation sector in Pakistan..... But a question is Pakistan ready for such a development...... can it sacrifice the other requirements and acquisition to give it a meaningful support....... aviation sector requires huge sums of investments are they ready for that or would it be yet another story of a good beginning not materialising up to the extent it should materialize under budgetary pressures from military acquisitions...... as has been the case in past.

 

[DARKY]

Oh great so after so many years people are still in Dilemma whether JF-17 was a good program to persist with or not , so for that another thread is being ruined and trollers are really getting a chance to troll rather they are being invited with open arms and above all it feels awful to know that none other than Think tanks and Senior members themselves are feeding them

I don't know why..... but its seen only here.....
Every coin has two faces and a debate/discussion is to bring out both the faces and have counter arguments about them.
.....but somehow people like you only want to see the side which pleases you more and don't even want to bother about the other one.....
a demerit that would be called on your part.......If you expect a forum to be the ground of spreading the good-good.....propaganda and strongly reject the bad-bad reality.........(The information which blinds the masses with incorrect or incomplete information to satisfy one's objective can be termed as propaganda )....... Again I would say every thing has a good and bad side...... even JF-17.......

I have seen your posts about me..... and take my word you can do better....... its very easy to call people as troll/kid/boy/son here in this forum and some time even derogatory and vulgular words I have been called upon with....... If can't come up with any thing then stay away and let sane people continue with what they are doing...... Debating here does not gives the license to any one to alter the other person's believes the best one can do is make him greet with the fact.

THANKS

 

[notorious_eagle]

JF 17 has to date brought nothing to the table---nothing of any significance----sc-rew the experience

A 4th Generation Multi Role Aircraft that is BVR capable and has the capability of data-linking with other assets to create a superior situational awareness in the battlefield, that is something totally new to the table and a leap of Generation over what forms the backbone of PAF right now. The aircraft has the capability of sharing and receiving real time intelligence with other assets that are on PAF's grid, this is something totally new to PAF and i would say its without a doubt a huge leap over our current capabilities. Also if the fight comes to WVR, it can easily hold its own against anything what the enemy can throw at us.

Sir i strongly believe you are being unfair to the JF17, there is nothing of value that the J10A adds to PAF's fleet that the JF17 cannot fullfill. PAF believes that it has hit a home run with this aircraft considering how much its costing us and i dont disagree with them.

You are right----between 2002 and 2005---pak could have bought anything with cash upfront-----. It was Musharraf / PAF analysis at that time that there would be peace with india---and the jets would be a waste of money----.

I wont disagree with you over here, it was not just the thinking within the military, it was thinking all over the Pakistani society that peace with India will be achieved very soon. PAF at the time should have straight away signed the contract for atleast 50 Block 52's.

 

[muse]

PAF at the time should have straight away signed the contract for atleast 50 Block 52's.

There was the small matter of the earthquake - maybe that infused sobriety?

 

[VCheng]

There was the small matter of the earthquake - maybe that infused sobriety?

To paraphrase a famous line, "The military is writing cheques that the economy cannot cash!".

 

[araz]

Hi,

Is paf fighting with itself --- is that why it is happy with this plane----. JF 17 has to date brought nothing to the table---nothing of any significance----sc-rew the experience-----what do you have to fight the enemy with today----just the 18 BLK 52's---.

If Tejas is a failure----it doesnot do anything to IAF----they still had their heads straight----they had aircraft in their possession that could do the job----. Now they can afford the experience in any which way they want to----but if paf claims to do that----they still got their heads stuck in sand.

Darky,

You are right----between 2002 and 2005---pak could have bought anything with cash upfront-----. It was Musharraf / PAF analysis at that time that there would be peace with india---and the jets would be a waste of money----.

What a bunch of 'comical' warriors and planners of the realm of islam----. Who needs enemies when you have the paf to back you and the pakistani generals to plan the things.

Mastan
In your zeal you often forget that like me , at the end of the day you too are an arm chair General. With the cloak of secrecy PAF is not going to advertise its capabilities and all it will say is that it has a very capable BVR enabled plane on its hands which will give anyone a run for their money.If this was not the case PAF would not have asked for more JFTs post Abbotabad fiasco, but would have demanded more J10As/Bs. PLease remember no one wants to go to their deaths without at least having given an account of themselves. We have testimony of various pilots and countless bloggers telling us PAF is happy with the plane,, what then is your reason for winging.
What we have to fight the enemy today are the JFTs and Bl52s, and every thing else in our inventory. What we dont have are dreamers who are hell bent on bankrupting the economy in persuance of a dream that you as a small country can never achieve.So get of your high horse and stop your winging attitude and talk some sense.PAF CANT AFFORD THE RAFALES AND THE TYPOONS OR EVEN THE GRIPEN, NOR WILL THE VENDORS SELL THEM TO US!!!! All of these planes have the same problem with regards to sanctions the F16s have.Dont believe me , see and read what happened to the M3s in France in 02 and the Agosta.
Give me one plausible alternate to what PAF is doing now and STOP living in the past.Then we can discuss this further.
Araz

 

[araz]

I get your point about the role which JF-17 plays in development of aviation sector in Pakistan..... But a question is Pakistan ready for such a development...... can it sacrifice the other requirements and acquisition to give it a meaningful support....... aviation sector requires huge sums of investments are they ready for that or would it be yet another story of a good beginning not materialising up to the extent it should materialize under budgetary pressures from military acquisitions...... as has been the case in past.

Darky
You guys are never happy. Apologies if I am sounding harsh, but what do you do when the world is coming apart around you. The matter is simple, we need to modernise our fleet, we have no money and have to scrouge around in the junkyards of the world to keep our existing fleet air borne. To to it off we are being told repeatedly that we are not doing enough, when whatever we are not doing is resulting in more deaths than the whole of the ISAF losses , both in the military and population.
We are told we should buy J10 on the one hand and on the other hand a fighter which the whole world thinks could be the next mig 21/ F16 is in our hands but we should give it up on the grounds that we can not afford it or the infrastructure of it.
Would you care to enlighten us what other option is going to replace 250 -300 obsolete fighters. You can understand that this is not about PAK V/s India alone.It is simply about keeping a deterrent level capability in hand.
Another counter argument is that development of industry in the country will fuel economic development as we will progressively be building mor e and more parts in the country

 

[araz]

To paraphrase a famous line, "The military is writing cheques that the economy cannot cash!".

It is sometimes a curse to be living in an area of strategic importance. We have one super power on our doorstep demanding things which we cant provide it, another economic regional power house at the other border hell bent on blaming us for all the sins of the world. Our life line is in its hands. Now try sitting down and improving your economy.
Araz

 

[MastanKhan]

A 4th Generation Multi Role Aircraft that is BVR capable and has the capability of data-linking with other assets to create a superior situational awareness in the battlefield, that is something totally new to the table and a leap of Generation over what forms the backbone of PAF right now. The aircraft has the capability of sharing and receiving real time intelligence with other assets that are on PAF's grid, this is something totally new to PAF and i would say its without a doubt a huge leap over our current capabilities. Also if the fight comes to WVR, it can easily hold its own against anything what the enemy can throw at us.


My Good man,

JF 17 will be one day---not now not today not tomorrow----but in three to five years it will have medium range BVR's-----fully operational----. It has to go through its operational setup---its integration----.

I mean to say----just beacuse you have a radar hookup and you have hooked up bvr's which are brand new for that country as well as the radar----it doesn't mean that you have a potent system in place---and now you can go and turn around and take opn the world----.

I am not being unfair to the JF 17----what I am saying is that don't expect a boy to do a man's job----the JF 17 is still a boy----maybe just reaching puberty----so you are being unfair to this aircraft by asking it to do things that it cannot do yet-----.

It needs time to mature and that is the function of the growth that is needed for the aircraft to perform at its best---for what it is designed for----for the radars and the elctronices be put through the grinder to perform under adverse conditions over and over again and again----where all the parameters of failure and success of different items are checked----.

Remember---in a weapon system----there are no perfect mechanical systems without flaws---and all mechanical systems need time to grow into better systems.

 

[MastanKhan]

Mastan
In your zeal you often forget that like me , at the end of the day you too are an arm chair General. With the cloak of secrecy PAF is not going to advertise its capabilities and all it will say is that it has a very capable BVR enabled plane on its hands which will give anyone a run for their money.If this was not the case PAF would not have asked for more JFTs post Abbotabad fiasco, but would have demanded more J10As/Bs. PLease remember no one wants to go to their deaths without at least having given an account of themselves. We have testimony of various pilots and countless bloggers telling us PAF is happy with the plane,, what then is your reason for winging.
What we have to fight the enemy today are the JFTs and Bl52s, and every thing else in our inventory. What we dont have are dreamers who are hell bent on bankrupting the economy in persuance of a dream that you as a small country can never achieve.So get of your high horse and stop your winging attitude and talk some sense.PAF CANT AFFORD THE RAFALES AND THE TYPOONS OR EVEN THE GRIPEN, NOR WILL THE VENDORS SELL THEM TO US!!!! All of these planes have the same problem with regards to sanctions the F16s have.Dont believe me , see and read what happened to the M3s in France in 02 and the Agosta.
Give me one plausible alternate to what PAF is doing now and STOP living in the past.Then we can discuss this further.
Araz

Araz,

You can make a decision for yourself as an arm chair general----but please let me decide my fate ----. PAF has no cloak of safety---it has no bvr capable plane to give someone a run for the money except for blk 52-----wars are not fought on the basis of giving someone run for their money---because that is a looser's proposition-----. And stop kissing paf's behind all the time-----.

PAF is a known liar----and a known braggart---they have failed the nation on many an occassion---the nation sacrificed its money and soul for these high flyers lying pilots----for years and years----they first deceived the nation with the F 16 fiasco / sanctions---they screwed the nation up through the mirage 2k deal---they srcewed the nation again by not buying the right equipment in time----they let the navy be destroyed in karachi harbour by indian missile boats by not acting on the information---.

There is nothing secret that the paf has-----each and everything that they have is known----its capabilities are known----.

Just because they took out the eurofighters in close combat during training----people think the paf is a superstar----who over here is a fool to believe that the other air force will play into paf's strengths.

Past---past is what it is all about----people who don't remember their past have no future----there is no plausible alternative for paf now-----but they had it in the past----if the pak millitary had killed al qaeda at tora bora 9 years ago----there were alternatives of all kinds----. You start playing games with the big boyz---you may trick them and fool them for awhile-----but once they catch onto you----you are done-----.

Araz----stop protecting paf----they need to face the nation one time----they have duped the nation for the longest term----they have deceived the country for the longest-----.

PAF is fortunate that the pakistani public has not caught onto their thing yet----they are still after the army---once th pak public knows about the deceptions of paf----they won't have a place to hide.

 

[untitled]

When I first found about about the J-10 from Wikipedia in 2009 ... I heard they were going to be delivered around 2010 ? Am I right ?
If yes why was the order delayed till 2014-15 ? Sorry if this has been asked time and time again ?

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

If pakistan has no money---then why does it need to fight----why not admit that they don't have it----and be done with it---commit a coupe de grace-----make peace-----nobody would want to conquer pakistan---give away your nukes in favour of nuclear energy plants----. Our nukes give us a position of strength---make a bargain for the sake of pakistan and pakistanis----if you can't buy better weapons than your enemy.

 

[DARKY]

Darky
You guys are never happy. Apologies if I am sounding harsh, but what do you do when the world is coming apart around you. The matter is simple, we need to modernise our fleet, we have no money and have to scrouge around in the junkyards of the world to keep our existing fleet air borne. To to it off we are being told repeatedly that we are not doing enough, when whatever we are not doing is resulting in more deaths than the whole of the ISAF losses , both in the military and population.
We are told we should buy J10 on the one hand and on the other hand a fighter which the whole world thinks could be the next mig 21/ F16 is in our hands but we should give it up on the grounds that we can not afford it or the infrastructure of it.
Would you care to enlighten us what other option is going to replace 250 -300 obsolete fighters. You can understand that this is not about PAK V/s India alone.It is simply about keeping a deterrent level capability in hand.
Another counter argument is that development of industry in the country will fuel economic development as we will progressively be building mor e and more parts in the country

Sir
Its not about me or my types being happy or sad !!.....The issue I wanted to put forward has decided the fate of many good organisations intended with a very good vision and lot of zeal in the beginning showing a lotta promise in future........ most of the time they were analogous to their Indian counterparts or vice versa.....which is quiet obvious but time and again the military dependence of the Pakistan Govt. diverted the funds towards better weapon acquisition........If I am not wrong 80s was an era when Prosperity was seen in the Pakistan economy and India was burning..... didn't posses any big threat to Pakistan other than Kashmir or Siachen..... the funds could have been used on organisations for space research etc......but the Military mindset got better of the Govt. and Huge acquisition of military hardware was done...... spending a lot of money...... Isn't it that we two started on same condition but ISRO can launches and manufactures foreign satellites and NESCOM is yet to make one for local use....... yes we had resources on our part but you too had enough to sustain a profitable development...... WWII devastated Japan.... If it were to be hell bound on revenge..... then it would have spent lavishly on military sidelining any scientific development.... and by now it would have been the 3rd or 4th strongest superpower..... but the people kept military secondary and concentrated on development of technology which has paid off and they own one of the best defensive forces in the whole World.