‘New wine shops, conspiracy to destroy youth’

[pak-marine]

=sparklingway;1005696]Oh, it does. It is factually incorrect to state that alcoholics don't destroy families. However, comparatively you can clearly and scientifically argue that alcohol abusers are far smaller in proportion compared to drug abusers (even if the study is limited to casual users only).

yeh thanks that was my point as wel , course alcohal does ruin but the percentage afftected is very less than of hard drugs.

 

[JonAsad]

Weed, Heroine is Haram in Islam, if ppl are taking them illegaly it doesnt mean to counter them we'll have to bring another Haram thing legaly.

Rishwat(Bribe), every one is doing it, why not make it legal?
Corruption make it legal aswell..

If we really care about those people that are drug addict, we should focus on ways to make them normal, not on ways to switch their addiction from drugs to alcohol..
Wierd Logic that is, that logic is not even applied into western ultra liberal countires.

We have lot of other problems including terrorism, illetracy, women rights etc etc thats need more attention than legalizing alcohol.

Look at smoking"cigarette", we have an age limit for that aswell, how many of our young Pakistanis or i rather say teen Pakistani's even bother to look at the age limit before starting to smoke and around 85% of young ppl starts to smoke while in their teens,
In that case we have a choice aswell, but who cares.. Make alcohol legal and see how many teens control their selves..
In western countries underage sale of alcohol is strictly prohibited and there are strict punishents for underage sale and cosumption,

Now honestly speaking in this age of chaos and the bad patch Pakistan is going through can we inforce these underage laws in Pakistan? - No

 

[ice_man]

does the SINDH government approves it or does the Karachi mayor approves these licenses??

 

[sparklingway]

Weed, Heroine is Haram in Islam, if ppl are taking them illegaly it doesnt mean to counter them we'll have to bring another Haram thing legaly.

Strawman.

Rishwat(Bribe), every one is doing it, why not make it legal?

Because that deprives society of the rule of law, regulations, civilized behaviour and moral righteousness. Bribery allows you to get an unfair advantage for economic profits over a deserving person.

Corruption make it legal aswell..

Again, flawed and fallacious.

If we really care about those people that are drug addict, we should focus on ways to make them normal, not on ways to switch their addiction from drugs to alcohol..

Drug addicts won't become alcoholics. We have rehabilitation facilties working for drug addicts and ones that cater to alcoholics as well.

Willing Ways :: Alcoholism and Addiction Treatment Centre

Wierd Logic that is, that logic is not even applied into western ultra liberal countires.

"Western Ultra liberal countries" have tried prohibition, only to repeal it after sane realization over the problems associated with prohibition as summarized by my earlier post.

We have lot of other problems including terrorism, illetracy, women rights etc etc thats need more attention than legalizing alcohol.

A is important. B is less important. Does not mean leave B. We are discussing, not implementing.

Look at smoking"cigarette", we have an age limit for that aswell, how many of our young Pakistanis or i rather say teen Pakistani's even bother to look at the age limit before starting to smoke and around 85% of young ppl starts to smoke while in their teens,

That is why alcohol sales are monitored with the highest severity across the globe.

If teenagers are smoking, blame the shop owner with lax moral and ethical standards.

In that case we have a choice aswell, but who cares.. Make alcohol legal and see how many teens control their selves..

Teens are dependent on their parents and still vary of their oversight. You can chew a gum and gurgle twice or thrice to remove the odour from your mouth after smoking. You cannot do so after drinking.

In western countries underage sale of alcohol is strictly prohibited and there are strict punishents for underage sale and cosumption,

So we can enforce as well. Presently, police officers are busy catching liquor to gain "efficiency" and take bribes. Catching liquor sales is the best performance area of police, especially in south Punjab and Sindh. Statistics support that.

Now honestly speaking in this age of chaos and the bad patch Pakistan is going through can we inforce these underage laws in Pakistan? - No

Would you argue that can we enforce property law? Or taxation law? or labour law?

 

[JonAsad]

When do nation-states and societies mature?

They mature gradually, step by step with knowledge and education, The way i see it with this illetracy rate people of Pakistan are not yet ready for that.
If we legalize it just to counter Gen Zia's decision, then whats the difference, i call both ways extremisim.

Is everybody a bhangi? Is everybody a smoker?

There's a big difference between hate-mongering, terrorists and liquor. Liquor doesn't tell you to blow an infidel.

Well that can also be argued in a context does extremism makes every one a Taliban?- No

Huge difference between Liquor and EXtremism, but psycology of people does matter.

I live in the middle of the campus surrounded by bars. I do not drink. My reasons are logical. Millions of teetotalers across the world make choices.

Education, here in Pakistan most of the ppl are not educated enough.

 

[sparklingway]

They mature gradually, step by step with knowledge and education, The way i see it with this illetracy rate people of Pakistan are not yet ready for that.

Literacy rate has no correlation with maturity and sanity or reason in our case. As proven by a survey, the illiterate are far more tolerant, rational and akin to change than the "educated" ones.

I can arrange your meetings with utterly uneducated peasants and labourers who can give any academic (and I mean academic) a run for their degree when they start discussing Marxism.

If we legalize it just to counter Gen Zia's decision, then whats the difference, i call both ways extremisim.

It was ZAB's decision. Who said we should reverse it because Zia did anyways?

Well that can also be argued in a context does extremism makes every one a Taliban?- No

But that makes you available not for Taliban maybe, but for other terrorists.

I don't like to use it often, but this is pure strawman.

Huge difference between Liquor and EXtremism, but psycology of people does matter.

What? How is this relevant? Psychology? I'm sure you're using it in a banal way just like it is used across Pakistan.

Education, here in Pakistan most of the ppl are not educated enough.

The working classes are some of the heaviest drinkers across the globe, including in our case since we see the deaths from poisonous liquor. Make it available to them if they want to drink. They won't die from poison (will increase their chances of sudden death from excessive use obviously).

People become teetotalers due to religious, logical, spiritual and capacity-to-abuse reasons. We have much of that in society. Religion alone will be a big barrier. However, people will no longer be under huge burdens of guilt and breed other evils when buying underground.

 

[rohailmalhi]

Because that deprives society of the rule of law, regulations, civilized behaviour and moral righteousness. Bribery allows you to get an unfair advantage for economic profits over a deserving person.

So wht do u think the good wine selling can bring in to society.I can bet on tht its been banned for many year and i really dont see any problem in tht.

Drug addicts won't become alcoholics. We have rehabilitation facilties working for drug addicts and ones that cater to alcoholics as well.

According to ur logic let the diseases grow and so we have treatment centers to treat tht diseses ,but y should we allow it on the first place it is the thing we can control it.

"Western Ultra liberal countries" have tried prohibition, only to repeal it after sane realization over the problems associated with prohibition as summarized by my earlier post.

They are western they can do anything Alcohol is not haram in there relegion but in ours(if ur a Muslim)it is Haram.so Do we really need to keep copying every bullshit Western do .



That is why alcohol sales are monitored with the highest severity across the globe.

If teenagers are smoking, blame the shop owner with lax moral and ethical standards.

The shopkeeper is also responsible coz he is giving them the oppertunity to get in to a bad habit of smoking .Just tell me if cigerettes are not availble so easily in market then how many people actually can smoke it .i think very small amopunt of people can smke it coz they have to go throught a long process of buying it from the black market.

Teens are dependent on their parents and still vary of their oversight. You can chew a gum and gurgle twice or thrice to remove the odour from your mouth after smoking. You cannot do so after drinking.

U know teens here are trying to copy west as u r trying to do.They dont even listen to there parents know and they are living there own life .

So we can enforce as well. Presently, police officers are busy catching liquor to gain "efficiency" and take bribes. Catching liquor sales is the best performance area of police, especially in south Punjab and Sindh. Statistics support that.

So u r trying to say tht by allowing the wine u can actually reduce the corruption by the police right , by my friend u r wrong letting police do the corruption is better the to spoil ur whole society .

Would you argue that can we enforce property law? Or taxation law? or labour law?

so we cannot enforce the law then wht benefit GOP gonna get from it .Nothing but in the end they will surely destroy the society.

 

[sparklingway]

So wht do u think the good wine selling can bring in to society.I can bet on tht its been banned for many year and i really dont see any problem in tht.

Firstly, you seem not to care about reading earlier posts.

However, selling alcohol (wine is just one type) breeds little good but reduces a lot of other crimes substantially. (I'm sure people can argue about medical benefits of moderate drinking as well).

You don't see any problem is a really funny statement since you don't see the dozens that die from poisonous liquor and the criminal gangs that do the bootlegging.

Refer to this post :- http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...s-conspiracy-destroy-youth-7.html#post1005714

According to ur logic let the diseases grow and so we have treatment centers to treat tht diseses ,but y should we allow it on the first place it is the thing we can control it.

Lamest and highly unrelated argument. Pre-emptive care also only reduces the chances of catching diseases. High prices and heavy regulation does the same job.

They are western they can do anything Alcohol is not haram in there relegion but in ours(if ur a Muslim)it is Haram.so Do we really need to keep copying every bullshit Western do .

Firstly, lumping up multi-religious countries is flawed.

Secondly, prohibition in the US, Canada and many other places was due to the result of a religious (and partly feminist) movement. You might want to read about the temperance movement.

Thirdly, various christian denominations support prohibition while most teach about moderation.

Fourthly, many Muslim majority states do not prohibit alcohol keeping in mind sane arguments supporting why such an argument should not be placed. You can search legal drinking age and find the names yourself.

The shopkeeper is also responsible coz he is giving them the oppertunity to get in to a bad habit of smoking .Just tell me if cigerettes are not availble so easily in market then how many people actually can smoke it .i think very small amopunt of people can smke it coz they have to go throught a long process of buying it from the black market.

Prohibition will only increase curiosity amongst teenagers and adults who weren't very casual smokers will continue to do so.

Banning something with very limited negative health consequences (of course moderately) is always irresponsible state attitude.

U know teens here are trying to copy west as u r trying to do.They dont even listen to there parents know and they are living there own life .

Pathetic and hollow argument as usual. Had to come down to the I'm-the-righteous-moralist-and-you're-the-pathetic-amoral person.

So u r trying to say tht by allowing the wine u can actually reduce the corruption by the police right , by my friend u r wrong letting police do the corruption is better the to spoil ur whole society .

Society is not spoiled by legalizing alcohol.

Was our society a spoiled one before 1977? Were the Muslims of Pakistan some sort of lesser Muslims or bad Muslims to have lived in a society without such bans? Was our society a "western", "immoral" and "spoiled" one before 1977?

so we cannot enforce the law then wht benefit GOP gonna get from it .Nothing but in the end they will surely destroy the society.

You read it entirely wrong. You argued it'll be difficult to enforce an age limit with our hands busy with other national problems. Police are already enforcing sale prohibition, hence we can enforce age limits as well. My intention with that argument was to highlight that having hands tied with terrorism is a flawed argument concerning the difficulty in application and enforcement of law.

 

[JonAsad]

Strawman.

Whats the dispute?

Because that deprives society of the rule of law, regulations, civilized behaviour and moral righteousness. Bribery allows you to get an unfair advantage for economic profits over a deserving person.

I know that already, similary people drink alcohol to get relax, ease tension or to get high, socialize.

Again, flawed and fallacious.

can you argue why cant it be seen in the same context,
Declaring my arguemnt flawed, fallacious, strawman, semnatics not helping at all.

Drug addicts won't become alcoholics. We have rehabilitation facilties working for drug addicts and ones that cater to alcoholics as well.

Willing Ways :: Alcoholism and Addiction Treatment Centre

Yeah but some teens will become Alcoholics, Why do we need to legalize some things in first place which will result in creating more facilites for it? First legalize alcohol then make rehab centers for the addicts? People take drugs illegaly and we need treatment centers for it, legaling alcohol will result in more rehabilation centers for it,
We all know alcohol has an element of addiction to it, why legalizing it in first place.. Yeah ppl can make decisions for themselves but looknig at the trends for such addictions in Pakistan like smoking or illegal use of drugs, wudn't it be better to refrain from it?

A is important. B is less important. Does not mean leave B. We are discussing, not implementing.

My arguments are for "why" we should not implement B.
Practicaly it will be better if we solve A and then go for B.

That is why alcohol sales are monitored with the highest severity across the globe.
If teenagers are smoking, blame the shop owner with lax moral and ethical standards.

Alright we can blame every body, will it stop alcohol from reaching the hands of Young people of Pakistan?-No
Thats why i said we are not ready for this.

Teens are dependent on their parents and still vary of their oversight. You can chew a gum and gurgle twice or thrice to remove the odour from your mouth after smoking. You cannot do so after drinking.

So we can enforce as well. Presently, police officers are busy catching liquor to gain "efficiency" and take bribes. Catching liquor sales is the best performance area of police, especially in south Punjab and Sindh. Statistics support that.
Would you argue that can we enforce property law? Or taxation law? or labour law?

Thats the whole point, first let us enforce the already existing laws. No point in adding to the mess our law enforcement agencies cannot control.

 

[JonAsad]

Literacy rate has no correlation with maturity and sanity or reason in our case. As proven by a survey, the illiterate are far more tolerant, rational and akin to change than the "educated" ones.

What makes you think that the illetrate people of Pakistan want change specificaly related to legalizing alcohol? What benifits it will bring to them?

It was ZAB's decision. Who said we should reverse it because Zia did anyways?

Well the point was dont just reverse it, first make way for it. Prepare the people for it. Prepare the law enforcement agencies in implementing the law for it.
Gen Zia switched it Off, its not wise to just switch it On.

But that makes you available not for Taliban maybe, but for other terrorists.
I don't like to use it often, but this is pure strawman.

Flawed and fallacious.

What? How is this relevant? Psychology? I'm sure you're using it in a banal way just like it is used across Pakistan.

Well it is used that way all across Pakistan, doesn't that proves my point? Psycology.

The working classes are some of the heaviest drinkers across the globe, including in our case since we see the deaths from poisonous liquor. Make it available to them if they want to drink. They won't die from poison (will increase their chances of sudden death from excessive use obviously).

We see a lot of deaths from consumption of poisonous liquor in Pakistan, same as we see alot of deaths of drug addicts in Pakistan.

Now tell me why legalizing alcohol is more important?

People become teetotalers due to religious, logical, spiritual and capacity-to-abuse reasons. We have much of that in society. Religion alone will be a big barrier. However, people will no longer be under huge burdens of guilt and breed other evils when buying underground.

Well it is forbiden in Islam and it will be a guilt and burden on peoples whether they buy it from underground or legal shops.

 

[Reaper What You Sow]

It might be forbidden by Islam but since when did the government of Pakistan decide to interpret and force Islam upon everyone? Was it when the secular and western trained officer corp, civil leadership guided by secular principals of Jinnah and philosopher/retired-in-America social drinking class decided to? I would find it embarassing that as an outsider I may be able to enjoy a few drinks but local people would have to cast a cautious eye just to take a sip.

 

[afriend]

Why are people being hyper about it. No doubt alcholol is bad for health. But such kinda protest in the name of religion, is kinda bit extrimist.

 

[RescueRanger]

What's this... Protest, over what? Wineshops.

Well if the mullahs and radicals want to protest about people buying and selling wine, your first stop should be Flashmans and Murree Brewery Colony.

Rehman said that some hidden hands want to spoil Pakistani youth and promote alcoholism in them

What is there to promote, i don't know about Karachi but in Lahore you can buy booze in the Palm club in the bar, in Rawalpindi it is available from Flashman, PC and if your poor you can ask one of the Christian workers living in murree brewery colony to supply you with a Kuppi for 250 rupees.

Alcoholism is pretty rife in Pakistan, and the only hidden hand promoting it is, peoples own desires. Anyone who denies that is lying to themselves. I mean it's not like a supplied comes to you and forces you to buy booze.

In all my time studying in the UK, i could have gone to waitrose and bought a bottle of bubbly, but i knew it would serve no purpose. So it's peoples desires to drink that promote alcoholism and not any "hidden hands".

Btw, anyone remember that Raiwind Pir who got caught drunk in Lahore?

Talk about pot calling the kettle black.

 

[Ahmad]

I am sure killing another human being is a much worse thing than driking alcholol, if people do protest, they should first protest against those who kill dozens of people everyday.

 

[MilesTogo]

Just curious, when Islam prohibits drinking, does it carry any punishment as well?