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New SinoPak MBT in Planning.

Al khalid is second to none

and no tank in the world can survive after getting hit by 3rd gen fire and forgot anti tank guided missile
 
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AK-1 is equipped with newly built indigenous developed classified ERA which is thrice as effective as previous ERA on Al-zarrar and AKs...
 
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my brother was leading this company in Buner when it was hit by RPG not just one but around dozen RPGs and small arm fire. There were three tanks in that formation and trust me Pakistani army is no joke, all the perpertrators were dealt with swiftly in this ambush with huge losses to them. Its a long bloody story and i will spare the details but all i can say, two men got missing in that operation and never accounted for (during buner cleanup operation) however, non of the soldiers of that unit were seriously hurt.
 
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Thanks for sharing the first hand encounter bro, appreciate it a lot.
 
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You need to know what the objectives of your enemy are and than make your play. PA needs mobility which it has but it needs to engage the enemy in such a way where it feels it can emerge as the victor.

With India going for a Cold Start Doctrine, my guess is that the objective will change into halting the advance of the Indian IBG's and engage/destroy them. PA can open a front but that would be to relieve pressure elsewhere if they feel they are overwhelmed at a particular spot and cannot rush in reinforcements in due time to relieve the pressure.

As I'm sure you are aware, one of the considerations while forming Cold Start was to give the IA the advantage of operational tempo. With eight self-contained IBGs capable of simultaneous, independent offensives, the PA would be facing up to eight thrusts into its territory in the outbreak of hostilities. Which of the offensives would the PA defend against? What would be its COG (center of gravity)? Would the PA launch its own offensives to regain some initiative? Would the PA avoid direct confrontation to conserve strength, and resort to a Fabian strategy of defence?

No one knows the absolute answers to those questions, as warfare is an extremely fluid situation that can change rapidly. Wars rarely follow the original plan exactly. I have no idea what the IA's operational objectives are for their IBGs. I can make some educated guesses but that's about it. Vital details are obviously classified. All in all, it's a fascinating scenario.


Compare the synergy IAF and IA has achieved with just one IBG in one exercise as compared to PA and PAF that have been conducting several exercises in the past 2 years.

IA has conducted more exercises than the PA over the past 6 years, and armies seldom mobilize in full strength for a simple exercise. The IA's exercises were aimed at demonstrating specific capabilities like army-air force coordination, network-centric warfare, airborne warfare, and night-fighting capabilities.


Most importantly, both these departments are fighting a live war and officers on the front line are coordinating attacks with each other. They are battle hardened and have live experience, their is no substitute for experience.

Fighting a live war is always useful, but do you really think it is fair to compare a few Taliban and militants with IA personnel?


If Pakistan does choose to exercise this option, it will be the destruction of both India/Pakistan as both nations possess enough weapons to annihilate each other.

I think you need to learn more about nuclear warfare. Please go through these links. They're a long read but worth the time.

Nuclear Warfare 101
Nuclear Wafare 102
Nuclear Warfare 103

Neither India nor Pakistan possess enough nuclear weapons to ensure MAD. This actually increases the chances of nuclear weapons being used, but it also increases the chances of conventional warfare taking place first. The fact is, Pakistan's nuclear arsenal can do only marginal damage to India, and India's arsenal can do only marginal to moderate damage to Pakistan. And both nations' arsenals are almost entirely tactical anyway.


You can try to mobilize as fast as you can but you can never beat PA's light forces to the border. Tanks need maintenance and are slow, they take time to mobilize and that is why they can never beat our light forces to the border.

That's great, but light forces won't stand a chance against IA strike formations. At best they can try to wear them down, but they won't be able to halt the operational maneuvers. For that you need heavy forces.


As soon as India starts mobilizing, you can count on PA to start also mobilizing its Armour too.

The question is, can PA armour mass in enough force to halt the IBGs? And then, the same question rises on which IBGs to halt. PA's armored forces have no chance at halting all eight offensives, as that would spread them too thinly. You need to concentrate your forces in order to halt an enemy breakthrough, or make a breakthough of your own.

Air drop infantry against mechanized and armoured forces :what:, this is something i would love to see as the PA would have a field day against these poor souls.

Who said the IAF wouldn't airdrop IFVs and artillery as well? :what:

The objective of these formations would be to disable the PAs strategic reserves and harass their rear while the IBGs make the breakthroughs along the front. Also, the formations won't be airdropped too deep; I would guess 30-50 km. Also expect SFs to be airdropped in large numbers. In my opinion, special forces will play a decisive role in any future Indo-Pak conflict, for both sides.

Your fleet of transport aircrafts is more geared towards giving you mobility against the Chinese in the harsh terrain your forces are pitted against the Chinese, they are not aimed at Pakistan.[

I don't know where you got this info from. Heavy transport a/c are almost useless in the mountainous terrain of the Sino-Indian border, which is why India's forward bases there rely mainly on helos. Transport a/c are definitely aimed against Pakistan, as was shown by numerous exercises. Here is a clip from Vayu Shakti 2010:



Regardless, at max India can drop a couple of battalions and to drop this you would need complete air superiority. Do you honestly think IAF can achieve complete air superiority against PAF in the initial 48-72 hours, NO CHANCE

CAS aircraft require air superiority which i doubt IAF will achieve compared to Pakistan whom i believe has advantage against India in the artillery department.

No, IAF cannot achieve air superiority against Pakistan in the initial 48-72 hours. But it can definitely achieve air parity, which means control of airspace above friendly forces. Air parity is all that is needed in the initial stages of CS to paradrop strategic forces and later carry out CAS operations.


The attrition will kick in as soon as your IBG's start massing or crossing the border. Every inch your IBG's advance, they will take punishment from PA's defenders whom are well dug in and they will do their best to snipe your armour with their ATMG's. For argument sakes the Indians advance in 50 km after taking severe punishment from our defenders, THAN WHAT? Are your IBG's just going to sit there and do nothing.

Once a certain amount of territory (let's say 50 km penetration) is captured, India's holding/pivot corps will advance to consolidate the captured territory. The IBGs, having accomplished their goal of destroying frontline PA formations in conjunction with airborne forces, will then focus on making limited forays against secondline formations, aimed at maintaining operational tempo and preventing a concentrated PA counteroffensive. Meanwhile, the IAF will continue to maintain air parity and deny the ability of PAF F-16s, A-5s, and Mirages to bomb IA formations, while conducting air interdiction missions (with Jaguars and Su-30MKIs) against strategic targets. By now, it's just a waiting game. Pakistan can't win a war of attrition, because its economy and reserves can't handle more than a couple weeks of sustained, high-intensity conflict, and India's limited advances into Pak territory will not warrant use of nuclear weapons. Sooner or later, Pakistan will have no choice but to sue for peace.


To keep your IBG's active you would need to keep them supplied with huge quantities of supplies because tanks are expensive and require fuel. By the time your IBG's halt and let your supply trucks catch up that is assuming PA does not outflank them and target your supply trucks, PA will know exactly where you are. Chances would be heavily in favour of PA when their fresh Armour engages your exhausted IBG's. Also what makes you think the PA wont try to encircle and isolate your IBG's once they are deep inside Pakistan. Odds are certainly not in favour of India if you ask me as they would be fighting flanking and encirclement battles.

From what I understand, Cold Start has three main stages:
1) Initial Breakthrough - The order for mobilization goes out, and IBGs cross the border within 48-72 hrs, penetrating frontline PA defenses. IAF airdrops special forces behind enemy lines to assist in the breakthrough. MiG-29s and Su-30MKIs conduct air superiority missions, aimed at controlling airspace to a depth of about 80 km, while MiG-27s, Jaguars, and Mirage 2000s provide CAS support to IBGs.

2) Operational Maneuvers - the IBGs focus on surrounding and destroying PA formations, relying on a combination of superior mobility, strategic surprise, superior situational awareness via network-centric capabilities, and effective utilization of multiple fronts to overwhelm the enemy. The IAF, having established air parity, continues round-the-clock CAS operations, while Su-30MKIs and Jaguars carry out aerial interdiction. This is the most crucial stage of Cold Start, and also the most mysterious in terms of what the public knows.

3) Consolidation - the IA's holding and pivot corps advance into the captured territory while IBGs continue limited offensives. The IAF continues CAS, air superiority, and air interdiction missions. Fighting slowly dies down. A mastering of logistical capabilities is crucial for this stage.

Of course, this is all my own perception and is by no means authoritative. No one knows the exact details of Cold Start. Basically, the IBGs will be trying to outflank and encircle the PA while the PA will be trying to do the same to the IBGs. The better army will win.


Actually for the defending side, MBRLS are a wonderful asset and PA would love pounding the Indians with it. Pakistan is not late to the MBRLS game, we produce MBRLS domestically but they are not as good as the A100's. If you ask me the greatest threat Pakistan faced was from the Smerch, the introduction of A100 cancels it out. For Indians to use the Smerch, they would need to expose it to the A100's and PA would be fielding them in large numbers. Pakistan will be producing the A100's domestically, this means that the numbers will be in triple digits.

Any source that Pakistan will be producing A-100s domestically? Any source that Pakistan fields more than a handful of A-100s, or is planning on acquiring "triple digit numbers"?

Let's stop being speculatative and talk of the situation at hand. Currently, Pak's MBRL forces are vastly outmatched by India's MBRLs. As soon as an A-100 fires its rockets, its smoke and heat trails will reveal its location, and it will face immediate counter-battery fire from Pinaka, Smerch, and Grad units. India currently has around 300 MBRLs in frontline service (maybe more), versus how many Pakistani MBRLs?


In order to fulfil the objectives of the CS, you do need to accept the invitation.

The IA will decide which invitations to accept, and which ones to decline.
 
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Let the d!ck measuring contest begin - mods please take notice!!
 
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what mbt :devil:

[video]http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjE4MDQwMjQw.html[/video]
 
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As I'm sure you are aware, one of the considerations while forming Cold Start was to give the IA the advantage of operational tempo. With eight self-contained IBGs capable of simultaneous, independent offensives, the PA would be facing up to eight thrusts into its territory in the outbreak of hostilities. Which of the offensives would the PA defend against? What would be its COG (center of gravity)? Would the PA launch its own offensives to regain some initiative? Would the PA avoid direct confrontation to conserve strength, and resort to a Fabian strategy of defence?

For you to conduct those 8 simultaneous operations deep inside the enemy's territory, you need an officer core that is capable of pulling this off. This is something way too over ambitious for the likes of the IA, right now your Army is facing a shortage for its officer core. The question is, whether the IA is capable enough of launching those 8 independent attacks against a very well defended enemy whom will know where you are attacking from as soon as you start massing up your assets near your border. Can your officers coordinate amongst each other during the offensive while taking heavy punishment from the enemy? What are you going to do when the offensive looses its steam and the tanks start running out of fuel, by the time you loose your steam the PA will know exactly where your position is and will counter attack. These 8 simultaneous attacks are way too over ambitious for the likes of IA, chances of the attack falling apart are way to high.

No one knows the absolute answers to those questions, as warfare is an extremely fluid situation that can change rapidly. Wars rarely follow the original plan exactly. I have no idea what the IA's operational objectives are for their IBGs. I can make some educated guesses but that's about it. Vital details are obviously classified. All in all, it's a fascinating scenario.

Indeed its a fascinating scenario, but i pray to God that this day never comes when our tanks are exchanging fire against each other. Both sides are in possession of very lethal weapons, if their is a conflict than it will be extremely bloody.

IA has conducted more exercises than the PA over the past 6 years, and armies seldom mobilize in full strength for a simple exercise. The IA's exercises were aimed at demonstrating specific capabilities like army-air force coordination, network-centric warfare, airborne warfare, and night-fighting capabilities.

I dont know about that, i would say both the Armies have been conducting exercises regularly but PA in the last 3 years has been conducting maneuvers quite regularly. During the exercises of High Mark and Azm e Nau, each and every asset of the Air Force and Army was mobilized. Now this is as serious as it gets, everything now is connected through a C4I communication system thus all services of Pakistan Armed Forces are or will be fully net centric.

Fighting a live war is always useful, but do you really think it is fair to compare a few Taliban and militants with IA personnel?

I think you would be surprised how tough these Taliban fighters, their is a reason why a military superpower like NATO is still stuck in Afghanistan. Their is no substitute for real battlefield experience, you can conduct as many exercises as you want but it wont replicate real battlefield experience.

I think you need to learn more about nuclear warfare. Please go through these links. They're a long read but worth the time.

Nuclear Warfare 101
Nuclear Wafare 102
Nuclear Warfare 103

Neither India nor Pakistan possess enough nuclear weapons to ensure MAD. This actually increases the chances of nuclear weapons being used, but it also increases the chances of conventional warfare taking place first. The fact is, Pakistan's nuclear arsenal can do only marginal damage to India, and India's arsenal can do only marginal to moderate damage to Pakistan. And both nations' arsenals are almost entirely tactical anyway.

I have read these before, and i still stand to what i said before. If the existence of our nation is threatened, Pakistan will definitely exercise its nuclear option. Both nations have enough nuclear weapons to ensure MAD, Pakistan has close to 100 war heads and India has enough war heads to nuke Pakistan. You need to look at Pakistan's geographical size, small number of nuclear warheads from the Indian side will destroy Pakistan. This is why Pakistan is investing heavily in increasing the number of warheads it has, and taking the plutonium route to make our missiles MIRV.

That's great, but light forces won't stand a chance against IA strike formations. At best they can try to wear them down, but they won't be able to halt the operational maneuvers. For that you need heavy forces.

I know, the purpose of those light forces is not to halt the Indian advance but to slow it down and punish the Indian Armour. As your advance slows down, PA will know exactly where your formations are and will devise their own plan to counter attack with their Armour. PA will know exactly where your Armour is but you dont know where PA is hiding its Armour, knowing where your enemy is definitely gives you the advantage.

The question is, can PA armour mass in enough force to halt the IBGs? And then, the same question rises on which IBGs to halt. PA's armored forces have no chance at halting all eight offensives, as that would spread them too thinly. You need to concentrate your forces in order to halt an enemy breakthrough, or make a breakthough of your own.

As soon as you start mobilizing your Armour, PA will know and will start mobilizing its own Armour to counter you. PA does not need to meet your IBG's with its Armour at the border, they can spread out their light forces and let them cause attrition and take notice off your IBG's locations. Every km your IBG's advance, they will have to take out a few tanks off your main attack to guard your flanks. As attrition is causing serious damage and these IBG's protecting their flanks, your IBG's are going to loose steam very fast. Than PA's fresh Armour can engage your IBG's and chances of PA's armour prevailing are quite high. PA has enough numbers on its side to ensure that they can engage those 8 IBG's.

Who said the IAF wouldn't airdrop IFVs and artillery as well? :what:

The objective of these formations would be to disable the PAs strategic reserves and harass their rear while the IBGs make the breakthroughs along the front. Also, the formations won't be airdropped too deep; I would guess 30-50 km. Also expect SFs to be airdropped in large numbers. In my opinion, special forces will play a decisive role in any future Indo-Pak conflict, for both sides.

Nice fantasy but considering how extensive our radar coverage is, a transporter would pop up way before even it closes the border. PAF can easily take out the transporter at stand off ranges, this will be even more easier now as BVR capability is coming online now. So all good for fantasies, chances of India successfully airdropping these assets safely are extremely low. IA would be too busy engaging the PAF for air superiority, it possibly cannot ensure the safety of your transporters.

I don't know where you got this info from. Heavy transport a/c are almost useless in the mountainous terrain of the Sino-Indian border, which is why India's forward bases there rely mainly on helos. Transport a/c are definitely aimed against Pakistan, as was shown by numerous exercises. Here is a clip from Vayu Shakti 2010:


Well if thats the case, PAF will have a field day taking out these transporters from stand off ranges.

No, IAF cannot achieve air superiority against Pakistan in the initial 48-72 hours. But it can definitely achieve air parity, which means control of airspace above friendly forces. Air parity is all that is needed in the initial stages of CS to paradrop strategic forces and later carry out CAS operations.

Just two seconds ago you said that IA might para drop their assets behind enemy lines whom would try to disable PA's strategic reserves and now you are saying something completely opposite, make up your mind. For IAF to successfully paradrop its assets behind the enemy lines, it would need complete air superiority. Your claim is highly speculative and does not makes any sense at all.

Once a certain amount of territory (let's say 50 km penetration) is captured, India's holding/pivot corps will advance to consolidate the captured territory. The IBGs, having accomplished their goal of destroying frontline PA formations in conjunction with airborne forces, will then focus on making limited forays against secondline formations, aimed at maintaining operational tempo and preventing a concentrated PA counteroffensive. Meanwhile, the IAF will continue to maintain air parity and deny the ability of PAF F-16s, A-5s, and Mirages to bomb IA formations, while conducting air interdiction missions (with Jaguars and Su-30MKIs) against strategic targets. By now, it's just a waiting game. Pakistan can't win a war of attrition, because its economy and reserves can't handle more than a couple weeks of sustained, high-intensity conflict, and India's limited advances into Pak territory will not warrant use of nuclear weapons. Sooner or later, Pakistan will have no choice but to sue for peace.

Wow, such a nice fantasy :cheesy: but please this is not a Bollywood movie, its real life. Whatever you have said, chances of that happening are extremely small. Your IBG's will be engaged before your holding corps advance, and i havent read anything about India using anything other than their IBG's. For India to advance deep, lets say 50 km it would have to fight flanking and encirclement battles. Before your holding corps can move in, your IBG's would have like be engaged and the result would be settled. Neither can your Air Force successfully paradrop your forces behind enemy lines and neither can your holding forces advance before PA Armour would have engaged your IBG's. So whatever claims you have made, they are highly speculative and do not make any sense what so ever, although would make a nice movie :).

From what I understand, Cold Start has three main stages:
1) Initial Breakthrough - The order for mobilization goes out, and IBGs cross the border within 48-72 hrs, penetrating frontline PA defenses. IAF airdrops special forces behind enemy lines to assist in the breakthrough. MiG-29s and Su-30MKIs conduct air superiority missions, aimed at controlling airspace to a depth of about 80 km, while MiG-27s, Jaguars, and Mirage 2000s provide CAS support to IBGs.

Neither can you mobilize fast enough before PA and neither can you air drop a chunk of your SF behind the enemy lines. MIG29's and SU30MKI's cannot achieve Air Superiority against PAF in the initial 48-72 hours. This is all fan boy talk, your asking the IA and IAF to achieve something they cannot.

2) Operational Maneuvers - the IBGs focus on surrounding and destroying PA formations, relying on a combination of superior mobility, strategic surprise, superior situational awareness via network-centric capabilities, and effective utilization of multiple fronts to overwhelm the enemy. The IAF, having established air parity, continues round-the-clock CAS operations, while Su-30MKIs and Jaguars carry out aerial interdiction. This is the most crucial stage of Cold Start, and also the most mysterious in terms of what the public knows.

Oh my, that would be true if PA did not possess any of these capabilities. To surround and destroy the PA formations, you would need to know their formations are but they know exactly where your formations are advancing. I am yet to see how you have superior mobility because right now PA is more mobile than your forces. For strategic surprise, you need to smash the enemy's radar and communication system which you possibly cant. PA is fully net centric and has an extremely potent communication system, thus PA's units will be in constant communications with each and will be more superior of there surroundings than IA would be. Your arguments do not hold any merit at all, they are baseless.

3) Consolidation - the IA's holding and pivot corps advance into the captured territory while IBGs continue limited offensives. The IAF continues CAS, air superiority, and air interdiction missions. Fighting slowly dies down. A mastering of logistical capabilities is crucial for this stage.

Before your holding corps move in, your IBG's would have been engaged, thus this scenario also does not makes any sense.

Of course, this is all my own perception and is by no means authoritative. No one knows the exact details of Cold Start. Basically, the IBGs will be trying to outflank and encircle the PA while the PA will be trying to do the same to the IBGs. The better army will win.

No one knows the exact detail of CS because it appears that the plan is a dud, all signs indicate to it being abandoned.

Any source that Pakistan will be producing A-100s domestically? Any source that Pakistan fields more than a handful of A-100s, or is planning on acquiring "triple digit numbers"?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-forces/77251-pakistan-produce-a100-mlrs.html

PA is planning to field 10-14 regiments of A100, do the math. I am not even counting the other MBRLS in PA's possession but these A100 and our artillery are going to be a real pain in your IBG's a** as they will seriously pin your IBG's down.

Let's stop being speculatative and talk of the situation at hand. Currently, Pak's MBRL forces are vastly outmatched by India's MBRLs. As soon as an A-100 fires its rockets, its smoke and heat trails will reveal its location, and it will face immediate counter-battery fire from Pinaka, Smerch, and Grad units. India currently has around 300 MBRLs in frontline service (maybe more), versus how many Pakistani MBRLs?

Ahahaha nice try, i am not going to reveal the real number of MBRL's in PA's possession but its definitely in triple digits right now. The only Indian MBRLS that seriously poses a real threat to PA is the Smerch, and this has been neutralized by PA's acquisition of the A100.

The IA will decide which invitations to accept, and which ones to decline.

Regardless they would have to move in.

You are advocating the CS soo passionately while it appears that your military commanders have realized that its impossible for the likes of IA to achieve this, thus it appears that this plan is a dud. No offence but your argument is severely flawed, it takes into consideration what the IA has but fails to take into consideration of what the PA has.
 
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