New air chief marshal resolves to transform IAF into ‘aerospace force’

[Contrarian]

When i say India will jointly build with Russia the 5th generation a/c. I mean India's contribution to it will be limited to just what Pakistan's was for JF-17. Financial contribution as well as some specifications demanded. India might also be able to help in some of the small tasks of developing the plane owing to the experience gained from the LCA.

I have no doubt in Russia's ability to field something against the F-22 and F-35. Even i like to play realistically and so i told you the exact truth to it. But fact of the matter is that India WANTED to play a major role, but the timing was lost. They wanted MiG, but in the end they were forced with Sukhoi, they could have done hell of a lot more in the MiG project.

Whatever Russia makes, whether good enough or bad enough, is going to be THE enemy to the F-22/35. It will be the plane to challenge US dominance, that is certain.

Pakistan cannot build any aircraft. That is certain. China's J-XX is COMPLETELY unknown. China will NOT be able to field a 5th generation fighter anytime soon, it does not have the capability as of now. It cannot even make engines for 4th generation planes, let alone fifth. it has no experience in stealth. All the planes it has made has practically had Russians working on it full time. So J-XX will not come into fruitition till 5th generation concept is in its mid life.

 

[EagleEyes]

Pakistan yet cannot build any aircrafts but it will be able to by 2010 same as India. Either further modifications will be taken in the JF-17 aircraft or a totally new concept will appear later on. Once officially India announces that it is going to build a 5th generation aircraft and signs it. You will soon see Pakistan signing an agreement to build a 5th generation fighter. China can now build everything for a plane which you need to research if not at least acknowledge. As far as i know J-XX is more ahead than any project by Russia, last time i heard they were having financial problems, and it costs a lot, while India has yet to sign anything.

 

[Contrarian]

We are forced to do it; we follow minimum deterrence policy & our forces are for defense. If some day India cease to exist; you will see a drastic cut in our defence spending.

Minimum deterrent? That is why Pakistan has always been the agressor towards India? That is why Pakistan has always initiated wars first barring one time? Send regular army disguised as tribals, etc, etc?

OTOH, even if Pakistan ceases to exist, you will not see a cut in our miolitary expenditure. We prepare not for Pakistan, but for something much bigger.

On the other hand, India has ambitions that is not feasible for it right now. Like investing money for nuclear submarines;aircraft carriers; & other expensive weapons.

Says WHO, that it is not feasilble? We are already doing it.

Sounds to me like India wants to join the superpower club; and it perusing power projection capabilities meanwhile people are sleeping in streets & going hungry.

Ofcourse India wants to join the super power club. You say that as though India should be ashamed to say or admit that? We are a big nation, we have a growing economy, we have military dominance in S.Asia. We have a claim for that status. The way we are spending money on the military, India is indeed growing for a much bigger role in the world. Exactly same as China. It aims for the same thing we aim.

Its ok for Pakistan to spend on military when its people are poor and hungry but not for India? Read up on how much poverty reduction has taken place. Read on how our economy has lifted people from absolute poverty. How many middle class families were created. We spend because we can afford to spend.

 

[Contrarian]

Pakistan yet cannot build any aircrafts but it will be able to by 2010 same as India. Either further modifications will be taken in the JF-17 aircraft or a totally new concept will appear later on.

Webby PLEASE. Making Jf-17 does not make Pakistn a fighter producing nation. Otherwise we have been doing it from a LONG time with Su-30MKI, Jaguar, etc etc. Building a figher means GOING IT ALONE. Like we are doing with LCA, like we have struggled with LCA. That is the ONLY thing with which we can make fighter planes. Pakistan will not be a fighter producing nation for a LONG LONG time to come. Till it initiates its OWN fighter plane study and commisions it. Buying a Chinese plane and manufacturing it in Pakistan or adding some parts, some avionics does not mean that Pakistan can build a plane. It is FAR from it.

Once officially India announces that it is going to build a 5th generation aircraft and signs it. You will soon see Pakistan signing an agreement to build a 5th generation fighter. China can now build everything for a plane which you need to research if not at least acknowledge.

India has announced. Russian officials have announced. Everything is DONE.
I agree that China has made great progress in its aviation industry, yet it is still VERY dependent on Russia. From engines, to designs, etc, etc, etc. China though a VERY VERY promising country in this field in the future, currently lacks a lot to make a 5th generation plane. This will continue to remain the case for a while. Though eventually, China does appear that it will become one of the major a/c making nations.

Please tell me webby, how will Pakistan make a 5th generation plane? How? The only country that would grant you the plane is in no position to make it herself. Its a LONG LONG time, before Pakistan even thinks of getting a 5th generation plane. China cant make it yet. And there is no other country doing it. Pakistan CERTAINLY cannot do it on her own.

As far as i know J-XX is more ahead than any project by Russia, last time i heard they were having financial problems, and it costs a lot, while India has yet to sign anything.

Webby, J-XX is nothing atm. China cannot make a 5th gen. Please, this is your wish. But it is not true.

 

[EagleEyes]

Webby PLEASE. Making Jf-17 does not make Pakistn a fighter producing nation. Otherwise we have been doing it from a LONG time with Su-30MKI, Jaguar, etc etc. Building a figher means GOING IT ALONE. Like we are doing with LCA, like we have struggled with LCA. That is the ONLY thing with which we can make fighter planes. Pakistan will not be a fighter producing nation for a LONG LONG time to come. Till it initiates its OWN fighter plane study and commisions it. Buying a Chinese plane and manufacturing it in Pakistan or adding some parts, some avionics does not mean that Pakistan can build a plane. It is FAR from it.

Wheather you like it or not. JF-17 will make Pakistan a fighter manufacturing nation. It is a joint venture, Pakistan has made 50% of avionics and air frame. Going like LCA is another thing, failing it. While going on a joint venture when you know you have limited knowledge and cannot create an aircraft yet and creating a successful aircraft is another thing. Adding some parts? Its nothing more than what India did. Yet it will be a front line fighter not a technology demonstrator.

India has announced. Russian officials have announced. Everything is DONE. I agree that China has made great progress in its aviation industry, yet it is still VERY dependent on Russia. From engines, to designs, etc, etc, etc. China though a VERY VERY promising country in this field in the future, currently lacks a lot to make a 5th generation plane. This will continue to remain the case for a while. Though eventually, China does appear that it will become one of the major a/c making nations.

India has announced? Really? Link? Thanks.

Chinese can successfully build everything of the plane wheather it is reverse engineering, getting others technologies from various systems, at least now they are capable of building all parts of the aircrafts. If China lacks a lot to make 5th generation fighter, then same can be said about Russia. Like i have said 5th generation fighter of China has been progressed way more than anything of a 5th generation Russia is producing.

Please tell me webby, how will Pakistan make a 5th generation plane? How? The only country that would grant you the plane is in no position to make it herself. Its a LONG LONG time, before Pakistan even thinks of getting a 5th generation plane. China cant make it yet. And there is no other country doing it. Pakistan CERTAINLY cannot do it on her own.

India CERTAINLY cannot do it on her own either. It will be a joint venture with China (now wheather you underestimate Chinas capability or not, i dont care) and sooner or later Pakistan will be able to produce 5th generation fighter through transfer of technology and learning through it.

Webby, J-XX is nothing atm. China cannot make a 5th gen. Please, this is your wish. But it is not true.

J-XX is nothing? Now thats your wish.

 

[Contrarian]

Wheather you like it or not. JF-17 will make Pakistan a fighter manufacturing nation. It is a joint venture, Pakistan has made 50% of avionics and air frame. Going like LCA is another thing, failing it. While going on a joint venture when you know you have limited knowledge and cannot create an aircraft yet and creating a successful aircraft is another thing. Adding some parts? Its nothing more than what India did. Yet it will be a front line fighter not a technology demonstrator.

Frontline fighter or tech demonstrator, webby goto keypub and discuss these things, and NON INDIAN professionals will tell you. JF-17 does NOT make Pakistan a fighter making nation. Pakistan will be able to make the JF-17, that is it. It cannot make any other aircraft on its own. Do you realise what this means? Pakistan cannot design its own plane and does not have to industrial capacity to manufacture it, or its associated components, eg: pAKISTAN cannot design the FBW of a plane.

India has announced? Really? Link? Thanks.

Sure, just wait.

Chinese can successfully build everything of the plane wheather it is reverse engineering, getting others technologies from various systems, at least now they are capable of building all parts of the aircrafts.

Webby, every plane that China builds has MAJOR Russian inputs, from desigining, to production, to weapons. They are yet to build an engine for J-10 or JF-17, lol, and that is old 4th generation engine without TVC, that too with a LOT of Russian help, and just reverse engineering, not an original design.

If China lacks a lot to make 5th generation fighter, then same can be said about Russia. Like i have said 5th generation fighter of China has been progressed way more than anything of a 5th generation Russia is producing.

Yes, well i would LOVE for you to give me links on this one.
Webby, China is like the son of Russia in aviation. China cannot make anything on its own right now. Its progressing, its a far far way from 5th gen yet.

My god i cant believe you are even saying this, that China has progressed more on 5th gen platform than Russia. Its a joke man! China is totally dependent on Russia for now. 5th gen is a dream for them alone. Russia is making it, dude what is happening with you?
China has the capcity in the future, right now, its an apprentice.

India CERTAINLY cannot do it on her own either. It will be a joint venture with China (now wheather you underestimate Chinas capability or not, i dont care) and sooner or later Pakistan will be able to produce 5th generation fighter through transfer of technology and learning through it.

Yes, i know India cant. That is why i said, we'd be aiding the Russians. China will herself be buying Russian 5th gen components, to make her own after a LONG time. Pakistan will surely get such a plane, but it would be a long long time after India gets it.

J-XX is nothing? Now thats your wish.

Webby, please read up. China CANNOT make that plane now.

 

[Adux]

China cant built engines, other the copying Russian ones, The best fighter in China's aresnal is J-11, Bullcrap China is anywhere even close 1980 Soviet Union, Get over this China Love, without any sense of Pratical thinking. Russians have the Money now. Things have changed, Wake up and smell the coffee

 

[Janbaz]

You should be happy that it is PFF. Otherwise, you would have received something more enlightening.

Very nice!

 

[Keysersoze]

China cant built engines, other the copying Russian ones, The best fighter in China's aresnal is J-11, Bullcrap China is anywhere even close 1980 Soviet Union, Get over this China Love, without any sense of Pratical thinking. Russians have the Money now. Things have changed, Wake up and smell the coffee

Ok dude, if that is the case then India sure as hell can't. (I hope to hear you repeat these words anytime the subject Kaveri comes up) get over the self love and realise that Both South asia AND China produce some of the smartest minds in the world and also that China has a VERY large budget to play with.

I agree with Malay in regards the JF-17 does not make Pak a aircraft producer in the true sense. However a successful program will create a fantastic base to work from. (They knew their own limitations and worked within them in order to create a success which they can build upon)

 

[Keysersoze]

Webby, please read up. China CANNOT make that plane now.

China’s two major fighter aircraft manufacturers, Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) and Chengdu Aircraft Industry Co. (CAC), are both working on advanced 4th-generation fighter designs that could enter the PLAAF service as early as 2015. While Shenyang has been engaged in a brand new F/A-22-class stealth fighter design known as J-12, Chengdu has been focusing its development effort on an enlarged twin-engine, stealth version of its J-10 fighter possibly designated J-13. Both development projects are believed to have benefited from Russian aviation and weapon technologies.

The Chinese aviation industry began the preliminary research for China’s 4th generation fighter programme in the mid-1990s. In 1998 the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) reported that an advanced F-22-class twin-engine stealth fighter known as J-12 was under development at SAC. Later in 2003 an Internet source photo revealed a fighter mockup for wind tunnel test which may be linked to the J-12 project. As more details of the fighter began to emerge, it was understood that the fighter will also be fitted with an internal weapon bay and possibly active phased array radar.

Considering China’s records in combat aircraft development, a project like the J-12 may prove challenging. It will involves technology advancement in a number of fields including materials, high-performance aviation engine, electronics, flight control software, and stealth technologies. A project of this scale will also require huge amount of investment and considerable knowledge of complex project and manufacturing management. While China may be able to benefit from some “off-the-shelf” dual-use technologies available in the commercial market, it will almost definitely seek assistance from its traditional military technology suppliers such as Russia and Israel. However, none of these two countries possess the experience of developing an advance fighter of this class

Russian Sukhoi Company (JSC), which has developed close ties with Shenyang over the licensed co-production of its Su-27SK fighter as J-11, has been reportedly working with Shenyang in developing the next-generation fighter technology and sub-systems. Although Russia has yet been able to develop an operational stealth fighter, the J-12 project may benefit from its technologies in two particular areas: thrust vectoring engine and stealth design. China may also seek potential partners from Russia, Israel and Europe to co-develop avionics and weapon suites for its 4th-generation fighter aircraft.

Following the successful development of the J-10 fighter, Chengdu and its subordinated 611 Aircraft Design Institute began to work on an enlarged twin-engine version of the J-10 to compete with SAC J-12 project for the PLAAF’s 4th generation fighter programme. The new fighter, which was reportedly designated J-13, inherited the J-10’s canard delta design and resembles the Russian Mikoyan MiG MFI (Project 1.44) fifth-generation fighter demonstrator in many aspects. The J-13 design is less radical in terms of design and technology compared to the Shenyang J-12, and therefore may stand a better chance of becoming successful.

It was reported that Russian MAPO-MIG has been working with Chengdu since the late 1990s to develop a new generation fighter based on the J-10 design. The J-13 may be powered by two improved AL-41 turbofan engines with thrust-vectoring nozzles and possibly supersonic cruise capability too, giving a maximum take-off weight of 20t. If this is proven to be true, the J-13 will be a high-performance heavyweight fighter superior to the European EF-2000 Typhoon and French Rafale, though it may not be as capable as the F-22 Raptor.

So they have been making this plane for a few years now...with the Russians already.....

 

[Contrarian]

Cmon Key,
I ALREADY SAID India sure as hell cannot make a 5th generation plane on its own. Its a far far far far thing for India. We as of now cannot make an engine for a 4th generation plane now.

You should know key that JF-17 wont give Pakistan anything other than just a basic idea about making planes. The planes would prolly be made from CKD/SKD kits in Kamra. Making a plane involves designing it, composite(material) research, having industrial cpacity for production of that plane, testing it, etc, etc, etc. JF-17 does not cut even near it. I am sorry, Pakistan wont be a fighter producing nation for a very very long time to come. This qualifies as unnecesarry expenditure for Pakistan right now. It does not need to make its own planes. Doing this requires a hell of an investment.

China CANNOT make that 5th gen. Developing a 2 engine version of J-10 does not a stealth fighter make. Backfitting Al-41FN engines on J-10 cannot make that a 5th gen plane, cuz they woudl be backfitted on the existing flankers too, Su-30MKI and Su-35. So would the flankers then become 5th gen?

They cannot make planes right now, they cannot design planes right now, they depend on Russia for everything. It wont be before additional 2-3 decades before China can field its own plane of 5th gen capacity.

The only plane currently Russia is working on is The T-50, Sukhoi led project. That will be the worlds second or third 5th generation fighter and the first from outside the US.

 

[EagleEyes]

Internet Indian forumers amaze me everytime when they under-estimate their enemy. I just wish IAF was like that too. Some words from the Taiwanese air force officer.

http://defensenews.com/story.php?F=2521412&C=airwar

 

[EagleEyes]

On the other note. It has been reported from the reliable sources that Pakistan is working with China to produce a new (5th) generation fighter with stealth technology. I am not gonna name the person, but he is extremely reliable, but of course if you can't see it, you dont have to believe it.

 

[Contrarian]

Let me guess, Phashmim or whatever?

Fine webby, if you dont want to look at the realities, Pakistan cannot produce 4th gen plane, let alone help in deveoping 5th gen plane. All it can do is give money, and China herself cannot develop the plane now. Wait all you want and wish all you want. China aint comming with a 5th gen plane in a long time. You only have to look at their capabilities and what they currently need from Russia to see that China is dependent on Russia for most parts of a 4th gen plane, let alone 5th gen.

 

[EagleEyes]

malay,

I respect your opinion and thinking, but i would rather stick with my views. For now all i know is that PAF is prepeared with thumb on the red.