Never ask me about peace again

[janon]

Russia killed over 100,000 in Chechnya and now Chechens are kissing Russia buts.

And is that what you expect will happen in your part of the world too? That soon Palestinians will start kissing your butts? Are you not aware of all the deep running hatred they have for you? Why would you give them more reasons to hate you, and then foolishly expect them to start loving you, because of what you saw in Russia/Chechnya? The nature of the conflicts in Russia and in the middle east are so different. Naming a bigger massacre elsewhere (WW2 or Chechnya) does not excuse your ongoing smaller massacre.

Our objective is very very very simple: stop rockets and bring security to our civilians. We dont want our civilians terrorized on daily basis. Nothing more, nothing less.

And how is that achieved by this senseless air campaign? If that is your objective, send your ground forces in there, sieze all the weapons, and kill the enemy combatants. Going on pounding Gaza from the air and killing civilians will not bring security to you - it only increases the number of people who hate you, and the number of peope who will have a legitimate grudge against you in future. Even your traditional well wishers (Indians, Americans, Europeans) are beginning to question your wisdom - I can only imagine what your traditional enemies would be feeling.

Anyway this stated response of yours is rather vague from an operational POV. I was asking from a tactical/operational POV, what the objective of the aerial campaign is, and when you will declare it a success. At what point will you declare that victory has been achieved?

 

[500]

And is that what you expect will happen in your part of the world too? That soon Palestinians will start kissing your butts? Are you not aware of all the deep running hatred they have for you? Why would you give them more reasons to hate you, and then foolishly expect them to start loving you, because of what you saw in Russia/Chechnya? The nature of the conflicts in Russia and in the middle east are so different. Naming a bigger massacre elsewhere (WW2 or Chechnya) does not excuse your ongoing smaller massacre

What happened in Chechnya was not a massacre. Just regular urban warfare.

And how is that achieved by this senseless air campaign?

It was not senseless. It was directed against Hamas terrorists, their rockets and infrastructure.

If that is your objective, send your ground forces in there, sieze all the weapons, and kill the enemy combatants.

We destroyed virtually all tunnels.
We destroyed wast majority of their rockets.
We killed about thousand of their combatants.

Yes, we did half job. We could capture the entire Gaza and seize all the weapons but it would cost some 20,000 civilian lives.

Going on pounding Gaza from the air and killing civilians will not bring security to you - it only increases the number of people who hate you, and the number of peope who will have a legitimate grudge against you in future.

That just slogans from movies. History tells otherwise. Germany, Japan, Korea, Chechnya.

 

[Falcon29]

Yes, we did half job. We could capture the entire Gaza and seize all the weapons but it would cost some 20,000 civilian lives.
.

You still aren't answering his question. So you're admitting here Israel can't conquer Gaza. The only way it can do so is it causes massive civilian casualties by bombing anything that moves, errant heavy shelling, wholesale bombing of neighborhoods.

He is asking you to take an approach other than that. But, as you reveal to us. Israel can't succeed militarily, Hamas will defeat them unless Israel employs barbaric wholesale bombing, extreme terrorism, and disproportionate force which will kill everyone in the area.

 

[Arabian Legend]

Russia killed over 100,000 in Chechnya and now Chechens are kissing Russia buts.


Our objective is very very very simple: stop rockets and bring security to our civilians. We dont want our civilians terrorized on daily basis. Nothing more, nothing less.

You should be ashamed of yourself. In fact you should quit being here. How many children, women and helpless people have died as a result of Israel hideous attack on palestine? You talk about Asshead for his killing machine that targeting innocent while both of you are on the same boat. Israel attack on palestine is unjustifiable. This is basically an ethnic cleansing. A war crime the zionist regime and their supporters will pay for.

 

[Indos]

Prepare for future revenge.......

 

[forcetrip]

When the assault started, I was sympathetic to Israel, because no country should face rocket attacks from groups like Hamas. But as it has dragged on and on, and civilian casualties keep mounting, I feel forced to question Israel's behavior as well as intentions. Initially I was under the impression that the air strikes were only at Hamas targets and rocket launch pads, and that civilian casualties happened only because of Gaza being such a crowded place, and Hamas firing from civilian places and storing weapons in schools and mosques. However, I only excused Israel's air campaign because I thought that it would be quick, intended to force Hamas to come to the negotiating table, or followed by ground forces moving in to capture Hamas leaders and rocket launchers.

But as it turns out, Israel is going on doing air strikes which have already killed a 1000+ civilians who had nothing to do with Hamas, and yet Israel remains unapologetic. I cannot understand what they are trying to accomplish by this aerial campaign, unless they simultaneously sent in ground forces. All they are doing is creating thousands of sworn enemies - everybody who lost a child, every child who lost their parent, will hate Israel to the core, and quite possibly join anti Israel forces in future. And they would be morally fully justified in doing so.

I have to say at this point, that Israel is behaving stupidly as well as criminally. Their initial statement of intentions simply do not match with what their F-16s are doing. Preventing rocket attacks? Destroying tunnel networks? How is any of that achieved by repeatedly pounding homes and universities?

Hamas, all said and done, is a very lightly armed force of foot soldiers, with no armour or artillery or heavy weaponry. They would be no match for the IDF if they faught face to face. If Israel's intention really was self defence, then they should hae sent in their ground forces, killed or captured combatants, destroyed the tunnels and rockets on the ground, and used airpower only for close air support of their ground troops. Instead, they are pretending to achieve those objectives from the air alone.

What exactly is Israel's objective as of now? What are they trying to do? Do they even have a clearly defined objective anymore? @500 @Archdemon @Adir-mz

They are deliberately targeting hamas operatives families and neighbors. They feel it will eradicate future terrorists and demotivate the existing ones. Atleast those are some of the attacks that happened. The arab world does not work that way. It works exactly the opposite of what they are doing. Making more Hamas by taking away what little family they had left. But bombing the UN compounds saying that it housed missiles? Even if it housed a nuclear bomb, you target innocent civilians to eradicate a bunch of metal tubes that will either fall short of the city or be taken out by the dome. What is the life of a palestinian worth to them now?

 

[Falcon29]

They are deliberately targeting hamas operatives families and neighbors. They feel it will eradicate future terrorists and demotivate the existing ones. Atleast those are some of the attacks that happened. The arab world does not work that way. It works exactly the opposite of what they are doing. Making more Hamas by taking away what little family they had left. But bombing the UN compounds saying that it housed missiles? Even if it housed a nuclear bomb, you target innocent civilians to eradicate a bunch of metal tubes that will either fall short of the city or be taken out by the dome. What is the life of a palestinian worth to them now?

First of all, I disagree with your labeling here. It depends on how one approaches this. I prefer avoiding that terminology.

But, let's make it clear, not a single UN compound which was bombed by Israel had any weapons/fighter presence anywhere near it. Nobody has claimed this at all.

 

[Chak Bamu]

exactly that, to me, pics of an Israeli soldier's family in mourning are just as tragic as pics of a hamas fighter's kids crying at his funeral.. is just as tragic as some random civvie family caught in the middle of this BS

statistic my ***, the death of one man is a just as big a tragedy as the death of a million.

overall, Israel have lost the propaganda war, Palestinians have lost too many of their own.. I just hope this round stops soon

death affects those who are left behind more than those who die themselves.. you trying to tell me the grief of a Hamas fighter's mother is any more or less than what is felt by an Israeli soldier's family or indeed the family of some innocent civilians caught in the cross fire ?

war is ugly

what I'm trying to say is.. end of the day, 10 dead kids here vs 1 dead soldier there is equally bad for those left behind

but of course, Israel have lost the information/propaganda war badly here

This short phrase can not cover the shame. Try as you might.

Nothing excuses this madness. None of the excuses works. Its only your stubbornness that makes you grab at straw - they wont work as fig leaves.

So who are the people who elected Hamas and gave it the authority to launch rockets at Israel? After all, they have some responsibility for the present crisis too.

You remind me of the AQ logic "it is OK to kill people because they are responsible for electing their governments". Good going.

Perhaps a look at the first post in this thread does not make matters sufficiently clear, especially in the backdrop of the killings?

I would like to see what circular logic you shall employ to explain yourself.

-------------------------

@500 sometimes presents some information that explains something like 'barrel bombs', and there is perhaps some value to have someone like him here. However the hard-heartedness he displays in explaining Israeli positions just goes to show the inhumanity of Zionist ideology. He can bring some technical information, but he is essentially just a Hasbara Propaganda Bot.

This is what Zionism does to a person. He is an ultimate evolved Zionist.

Speaking of Zionism, the following article by Yvonne Ridley explains how many humanists are waking up from their Zionism and its logical evolution:

When even Zionists admit the project has failed

 

[VCheng]

You remind me of the AQ logic "it is OK to kill people because they are responsible for electing their governments". Good going.
Perhaps a look at the first post in this thread does not make matters sufficiently clear, especially in the backdrop of the killings?
I would like to see what circular logic you shall employ to explain yourself.

The first post is only based on eliciting blatant emotionalism, that is all, but my comment is absolutely logical. By whose authority and permission does Hamas attack Israel? They must bear responsibility for the response. There is nothing circular here.

 

[Chak Bamu]

The first post is only based on eliciting blatant emotionalism, that is all, but my comment is absolutely logical. By whose authority and permission does Hamas attack Israel? They must bear responsibility for the response. There is nothing circular here.

Hamas needs to ask big daddy to attack anyone, as long as his blessings are secured, one could kill as many people as one wants with impunity. That is what is wrong with Hamas.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being emotional when confronting a tragedy. If you fail to appreciate that, there is something lacking in your humanity.

Your blatant support for Zionist terrorism is noted and condemned.

You may wish to read posts by @Dillinger and @janon to see a humanist angle, if you think that I am being partisan.

I await another post from you, seeing that you are not ready to give up and will go to any length to excuse your rhetoric.

 

[VCheng]

Hamas needs to ask big daddy to attack anyone, as long as his blessings are secured, one could kill as many people as one wants with impunity. That is what is wrong with Hamas.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being emotional when confronting a tragedy. If you fail to appreciate that, there is something lacking in your humanity.

Your blatant support for Zionist terrorism is noted and condemned.

You may wish to read posts by @Dillinger and @janon to see a humanist angle, if you think that I am being partisan.

I await another post from you, seeing that you are not ready to give up and will go to any length to excuse your rhetoric.

I support only what is fair, regardless of preconceived or emotional notions. Being humane does not require one to be manipulated by emotions and let go of logic. There is nothing wrong or blatant or condemnation worthy in what I have said if understood calmly and logically.

As I risk your wrath for responding, I will stop doing so, in this thread. Good Day to you Sir.

 

[Developereo]

The first post is only based on eliciting blatant emotionalism, that is all, but my comment is absolutely logical. By whose authority and permission does Hamas attack Israel? They must bear responsibility for the response. There is nothing circular here.

By your "logic", 9/11 was justified since the US govt. and military operates on behalf of, and under the "authority and permission" of, the US public.

Since the US logic is that "anyone who supports terror is also a terrorist" and, since the US government has provided weapons and money to any number of military leaders around the world -- from El Salvador to Egypt to Israel -- even after they were assessed to have committed war crimes against civilians, then the US govt. is a sponsor of terror.

 

[Chak Bamu]

I support only what is fair, regardless of preconceived or emotional notions. Being humane does not require one to be manipulated by emotions and let go of logic. There is nothing wrong or blatant or condemnation worthy in what I have said if understood calmly and logically.

As I risk your wrath for responding, I will stop doing so, in this thread. Good Day to you Sir.

Fair is what you say is fair. got it chief.

 

[VCheng]

Prepare for future revenge.......

The cycle of violence from both sides will continue, sadly, unless both sides realize that it is not the way forward.

 

[Indos]

The cycle of violence from both sides will continue, sadly, unless both sides realize that it is not the way forward.

Muslim is forbidden to kill innocent so we are not going to behave like Israeli if we have the chance, what I am going to say is that Israel should be afraid of what the future can bring them to, the level of their barbaric act will be recorded at our memory. All world power cannot stop what Israeli keep doing all the time because they are too weak, because of that another option should be prepared to stop this never ending crime to children and women, and insult to Muslim world. They are just endangering their own future by doing what they always do to Gaza civilians