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Nehru and the National Philosophy of India: Secularism

Sri Ram Sena is not part of the Sangh. I want the same law for all Indians irrespective of anything else. Not a theocratic state. No Hindu laws. No special benefits for Hindus, Sikhs, or Buddhists or Jains. Just a single same law for all. That's all. :angel:

As for Nehru, (since the discussion is on him), I can quote his own Cabinet Ministers...what he had in his mind about 'secularism'. Nehru was NO secular. Not at all.

Send me your email id, there are a few things that I won't discuss in this forum. But I will leave a question for you to ponder over; is there really a pampered community in India?
 
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"Please, Mr.Ganguly. I expect people like you to be smart enough (unlike the other usual idiots here championing radical Hindutva) to realize some basic facts. 16th of May'2014 was not a victorious moment for rabid Hindu nationalism in India. The elected prime minister did talk about equal treatment for all the citizens of India, didn't he? So says the ideology of secularism. If one has to go find some difference between this particular political philosophy with what our elected prime minister preached before the elections there is none. What I despise is the unnecessary hatred and vilification for an ethical concept by some political illiterates on an international forum to promote their own distorted version of national integration whose fundamental principle is to alienate its opposition, be it an ethno-linguistic group or a religious community. What is more worrying is the support for such bigotry among the neo-patriots who like you could hardly differentiate between soft Hindutva (a civilizational nationalist version) and the fanatical interpretation of Hindutva.
As far as your dissension against 'Nehruvian model' is concerned, Nehru ruled for about 17 years and tried to implement his policies in a more or less democratic way. After his death, how many years passed? Don't you think its a bit absurd and kind of escapist maneuver to shift the blame on a man in grave for the failures we suffered for the last 50 years? Unlike the current leaders, Nehru did not think his principles absolute. He once wrote,"Perfection, is beyond us for it means in the end, and we are always journeying, trying to approach something that is ever receding. And each one of us are many different human beings with their inconsistencies and contradictions, each pulling in different directions." Had he have resurrected today, his words might not have varied much with what Modi preached during his election campaigns. And ironically, the person who had quite been at friction with Nehru, agreed on this particular principle and more irony is that man is subjected to the greatest reverence by the ultra nationalists here."


Source: Secularism is now a National Security Threat | Page 12

I will objectively list the rebuttal to your points in bold( in this unformatted post.) :D @DRAY @Oscar - Since you liked this post, you are also invited. Also the topic at hand is also relevant. I don't want trolls to interfere, hence the Senior's Cafe is the place I choose to respond.

i. Thanks for calling me smart. It's not actually being smart, more to do with being wise perhaps, the kind that comes with experience.

ii. 16th May was a victory of nationalism and a defeat of Nehruvian ideology - plain and simple. Let's list out the cornerstones of Nehruvianism, as an impartial observer.

a. Economic Policy - Socialist, idealist, Planned economy. The hon'ble PM even deprived Indians of the Right to Private Property in 1955.
b. Foreign Policy - Non Aligned Movement, nobody's ally, nobody's enemy.
c. Defence Policy - No Armed preparedness, all resources should go to build the nation and not to protect it.
d. Aggressive Pseudo Secularism - Impose laws for each community.

Now let's see the condition of these cornerstones or pillars today - They are all in the grave. Except for the Aggressive Pseudo Secularism. Give it some time, sir, it will be gone as well. So there goes another point.

iii. I can't differentiate between "soft and hard Hindutva". Well, on one hand there is Hindutva and on the other hand there is no Hindutva. There is no Hindutva Lite version launched yet. This soft Hindutva logic is very popular among the far/militant Left that accuses Congress of peddling soft Hindutva. But the opposite of Nehruvian ideology is not necessary Hindutva. Also you have made an almost last ditch emotional appeal for saving the pseudo secularism that is already in coma, kinda like the helpless messages that came out from Saigon in 1975 Military HQ. Nehru was NOT secular, I can accept that one time possibly Jinnah even was. But not Nehru. He has enormous power, he could have implemented equal laws for all. But his personal hatred for all Indian faiths (this is documented) made him blind.


But yes, he was a realist. He knew that denying Hindus of some rights won't destroy the country. Denying Muslims of any rights might. Hence his dilution of secularism.

Finally you have called me a 'neo-patriot'. Not sure if that's a compliment or not. Anyway, I love my country, that's all I can say. :)

iv. Nehru being democratic is like saying Putin is democratic. There was no opposition to Nehru AT ALL. Forget an opposition party, even within the Congress there only a handful of people who could raise their voice against him. After Gandhi and Patel, Nehru remained the undisputed face of India in the foreign arena. So democratic was he that he accepted the UN mandated ceasefire in Jammu and Kashmir WITHOUT even CONSULTING his Cabinet, India's first Cabinet. Brilliant standards setting there. No wonder we have so many sycophants today.
S.P.Mukherjee disappeared right away in Kashmir in 20th century independent India because he wanted the same law to be applied everywhere. Was he fighting for a Hindu Law or a Sikh Law? But no, Articles had to be introduced in the Constitution.


v. Oh how sweet of Nehru to say - "Perfection, is beyond us for it means in the end". Otherwise we poor uneducated backward Indians would never have known otherwise. We would perhaps have followed him like sheep and considered his ideas as the Ultimate Truth. Anyway, wrt to all discussions about Nehru, the crux of it revolves around 1 and ONLY 1 aspect - secularism. People defending Nehru defend his secularism, because that is the only aspect of him that survives in India now.

So here's the thing. Nehru WAS NOT secular. He diluted the secularism that WAS there in the Constitution. He was the pioneer, and his path of appeasing the Muslims (not all minorities, only the Muslims) alone was the pillar of this pseudo secular thought. His party was no longer secular. Hell, his regime saw the introduction of SPECIAL LAWS for Muslims. And this was what Congress opposed while going against the Communal Bill during the freedom movement. So no, when you defend Nehru you defend pseudo secularism, not secularism. Secularism is a higher ideal that Nehruvians don't want in this country. But since we have a rudimentary democracy in this country, these stalwarts have been dumped. the elites and liberals will take time to adjust, like they always have. But Nehruvianism is going to die a slow death. Only then we can have the SAME LAW for ALL INDIANS. Before that any Indian crying out for preserving Indian secularism is a hypocrite and nothing else.

You end with this. I have really nothing to say about it anymore. I also hang my head in shame. But though I am a proud Kashmiri, I am a prouder Indian and will always remain so, regardless how much mainlanders vilify us.
"The more they behaved like this I became a more proud Bengali and an ashamed Indian"

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/secularism-is-now-a-national-security-threat.344768/page-12#ixzz3JgalMeZe


Mr.Ganguly, the word ‘smart’ also denotes astute, adept, bright, agile and also wise, thing that comes with experience as per your opinion. But I must acknowledge that you are quite smart in your own sense not only because you want to play the game as per your own rules but you also want others to ignore the fact that you can dodge the opposition argument as per your own convenience. Quite frequently, you like to use a word ‘rebuttal’ in your statements. ‘Rebuttal’ of what exactly? That Nehruvian policy of disassociating religion with state was a serious challenge in traditionalist societies like India? Have not that acknowledged repeatedly here in this thread? Nehru was not the topic of that locked thread, but you chose to play the game by your way and bring back Nehru back into the topic again. So, you are smart definitely.

Your second argument, that 16th May was a victory of nationalism. How convenient Mr.Ganguly, to avoid the ‘Hindu’ part of it? Perhaps you omitted that word because you also knew that it was not a D-Day for Hindutva adventure in Indian politics, didn’t you? 16th May was a winning moment for a nationalist party, but how much the agenda of radical Hindutva (as it was mentioned in my post you quoted before) had the role to play in it? You, quite cunningly avoid the part where I said Modi’s pre-election speeches on equality on religious principles of a state is exactly what the political philosophy of secularism says to us? Who for Gods’s sake here are admirers of pseudo-secularism? Are you not choosing your targets as per your own choice? This thread is not about defending Nehruvian secularism. If you have slightest amount of doubt please have some patience to read either the complete article or at least the part I posted here. While our discussions were limited to secularism, you conveniently brought other parts of Nehruvian philosophy such as economy, defence or foreign policy, extending the matter of debate beyond your oppositions scope because it demand greater time and effort to explain the complexities, efficiencies and deficiencies of these areas.

You said calling Nehru democratic will be same as calling Putin a democratic. Really? At least I did not know Putin has published a unanimous article criticizing himself calling him an autocrat, especially when Putin is considered to be an unchallenged figure in Russian politics? I have not heard Putin to believe that parliamentary democracy essentially depends upon the existence of a strong and united opposition? Did Putin explore any idea of compensating the absence of opposition? Does he consult and brief frequently with his opposition leaders? When Putin had encouraged internal debates within the party or formed an opposition party within it making himself as a self appointed leader countering the policies propagated by him only? I guess never. So equating Putin with Nehru clearly comes from the popular general ignorance of Nehru and I, honestly found it to be profoundly absurd and hilarious as well.

As far as his economic policies are concerned, it deserves better understanding of the Mahalanobis model which was, as it is said by its critics to be inspired by Feldman model of the Soviet planning structure. Given the rapid industrialization success of the Soviet Union model, one can hardly criticize a state just freed itself from its colonial age of deprivation and stagnant economy to be influenced by the model though unlike the Feldman model, Nehru-Mahalanobis model managed to maintain a sustainable growth rate since the 50’s to this day. Arguments against this model calls it a ‘waste of time’ without knowing the fact that how much Indian economy recovered in the years between 1950-1964, an age we certainly can call an integrated Nehruvian age. Without going into intricacies of economic complexities (which is beyond my scope too) I would like to present some figures, hope statics would convince the critics here. The growth rates of GDP (in 1948-49 prices) are as given as, Sector/1900-1950/1950-1964: Primary/0.4/2.6, Secondary/1.5/6.8, Tertiary/1.5/4.5, GDP/0.9/4.0, GDP per capita/0.1/1.9, population/0.8/2.0. The comparisons of growth between three post colonial era economies during 1950-64 are India (4.1), China (2.9) and Korea (6.1).

Nehruvian era certainly had the limitations of proliferation of unregulated economic bureaucracies and neglect of primary education but economy did accelerated by Nehru-Mahalanobis model (stats are the proof) and historic/comparative perspective of this era does show remarkable achievements. He left enormous opportunities for his successors to improvise but only an eye without prejudice is needed to realize it.
 
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Thanks for the compliments. Some of it borders on flattery. :D But anyway, I don't deny that you are (very well) educated, well intentioned and perhaps(?) Nehruvian. And in that last case, it's apparent that India, overall has moved ahead. It was the past and this is the present as well as the future.

you conveniently brought other parts of Nehruvian philosophy such as economy, defence or foreign policy
Yes, to highlight how he failed in almost every aspect he touched. Almost like the proverbial genie. "Touch and behold, it turned Gold!" Just like that, albeit in reverse. :P


This thread is not about defending Nehruvian secularism
Good. Then we have not much to debate in the first place. Also I like that you accept that there IS something called Nehruvian Secularism, that is distinct to the philosophy of secularism. That is a fair enough admission.


Modi’s pre-election speeches on equality on religious principles of a state is exactly what the political philosophy of secularism says to us
Yeah the secularism that DOES NOT exist in India.

How convenient Mr.Ganguly, to avoid the ‘Hindu’ part of it?
Is it not natural that a Indian nationalist party will champion Indian cultures? Why does one have to be anti Hindu/agnostic/etc to be a true nationalist? Can a proud Hindu disqualify for being an Indian nationalist?

Nehru-Mahalanobis model managed to maintain a sustainable growth rate since the 50’s to this day.
Ok, after this certainly no other logic is really going to work anyway. In economics Nehru model (or whatever it was) is practically mummified by now. :D

That Nehruvian policy of disassociating religion with state was a serious challenge in traditionalist societies like India
I repeat. Nehru did not dissociate religion from the state. He diluted it. The Constitution was secular but Nehru botched it in practise.


The main difference is this - secularism. If you are defending secularism, the Hindutva parties along with rest of India will have no problems in supporting you. But if people peddle Muslim appeasement(I don't use the term minority appeasement, because it isn't)as India's legacy, sorry - you will be opposed.
 
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@SarthakGanguly |

I am not a Nehruvian at all, but an ardent reader of his policies, philosophies of life and aspects that we normally do not generally touch upon. General opposition to him, on this forum I find little immature and in my opinion he does not deserve some criticism he gets here. The reason only being that, we are judging him from 21st Century, not from the beginning of 20th century.
As for the last paragraph, I will be surprised if Hindutva politics do not find any problem with 'secularism' I defend here. There are reasons to believe this and we will realize them only in future perhaps. I never supported any kind of appeasement politics ever in my life, so troubling oneself to oppose me in this regard would be totally unnecessary.

By the way, it was fun discussing the topic with you.:D
 
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@SarthakGanguly Nehru's economic policies were most suitable among the available options during its time, a newly liberated country with critical shortage of capital and expertise got a strong base to develop both from his socialist/USSR style industrialization by setting up gigantic government funded industries. Today in the capitalist world our private sector companies are doing well because they got a chance to stand on their feet and develop necessary expertise & capital under a protected economy. There is a lot to discuss here, but I would like to know what other economic model you think would have been better during that period, let's talk about the alternative solution.
 
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@SarthakGanguly Nehru's economic policies were most suitable among the available options during its time, a newly liberated country with critical shortage of capital and expertise got a strong base to develop both from his socialist/USSR style industrialization by setting up gigantic government funded industries. Today in the capitalist world our private sector companies are doing well because they got a chance to stand on their feet and develop necessary expertise & capital under a protected economy. There is a lot to discuss here, but I would like to know what other economic model you think would have been better during that period, let's talk about the alternative solution.
An alternative? Simple - read the archives... the plan was to have a mixed economy. Both public infrastructure investment coupled with private enterprise. But Nehru treated the word 'profit' itself as dirty!

He was the one to dilute the Constitution (again) by practically removing the right to hold private property. The State had the powers to nationalize any industry whenever required. Now tell me - why would I as a private individual even bother to invest a single rupee in such a banana republic?

Check this - Industrial Policy Resolution of 1948 and how Nehru single handedly destroyed it and replaced it with a babudom that enabled only the Govt to begin any company in textiles, automobiles , etc (you name it).

Read this for a detailed analysis. The guy is not a Hindutwadi. - Why Jawaharlal Nehru is the root cause of India's economic troubles | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

The economics of Jawaharlal Nehru - Livemint

Nehru and the Indian Economy (…Why is India Poor? ) | Atanu Dey On India's Development


Only the Marxist epw calls him a stalwart - http://www.epw.in/system/files/pdf/1964_16/29-30-31/economic_ideology_of_jawaharlal_nehru.pdf ...for the same reasons the entire economic community calls him a failure. :D

Read about his dictatorship just a week ago. The Pandit even did not bother to meet his Cabinet while making the Industrial Policy!
 
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Out of the first three sources, only the article published in live mint has been written by a noted economist and I hope Mr.Ganguly had read this article by himself. The first one does not go into much details and the third one does not deserve a read at all. I am amused that Mr.Ganguly calls epw Marxist (while DNA, in his opinion is fairly neutral) because I can post at the least three articles from epw criticizing Mahalanobis model more ruthlessly than the links he has labored to post here.
 
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An alternative? Simple - read the archives... the plan was to have a mixed economy. Both public infrastructure investment coupled with private enterprise. But Nehru treated the word 'profit' itself as dirty!

He was the one to dilute the Constitution (again) by practically removing the right to hold private property. The State had the powers to nationalize any industry whenever required. Now tell me - why would I as a private individual even bother to invest a single rupee in such a banana republic?

Check this - Industrial Policy Resolution of 1948 and how Nehru single handedly destroyed it and replaced it with a babudom that enabled only the Govt to begin any company in textiles, automobiles , etc (you name it).

Read this for a detailed analysis. The guy is not a Hindutwadi. - Why Jawaharlal Nehru is the root cause of India's economic troubles | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

The economics of Jawaharlal Nehru - Livemint

Nehru and the Indian Economy (…Why is India Poor? ) | Atanu Dey On India's Development

Only the Marxist epw calls him a stalwart - http://www.epw.in/system/files/pdf/1964_16/29-30-31/economic_ideology_of_jawaharlal_nehru.pdf ...for the same reasons the entire economic community calls him a failure. :D

Read about his dictatorship just a week ago. The Pandit even did not bother to meet his Cabinet while making the Industrial Policy!

And we had a mixed economy. Nehru did his share of blunders (I have issues with 3 of them), but economic policy was not one of his blunders. The policy was not flawless, but the world is yet to see a flawless economic policy, hence, a few dozen pages criticizing any economic policy can be written. Being the first PM of India he had to build the nation from scratch, the task was a lot tougher than any PM that came after him. During that time there were two economic models that were ruling the world, the USSR model was more suitable for us as our own situation was more similar to the USSR than USA, and we have followed a modified version of it with scope for private participation. Btw, most of the Indian leaders & intellectuals of that time were fascinated by the socialist model and success of USSR, Nehru was not alone.

I liked your this link: :)

The economics of Jawaharlal Nehru - Livemint
 
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And we had a mixed economy. Nehru did his share of blunders (I have issues with 3 of them), but economic policy was not one of his blunders. The policy was not flawless, but the world is yet to see a flawless economic policy, hence, a few dozen pages criticizing any economic policy can be written. Being the first PM of India he had to build the nation from scratch, the task was a lot tougher than any PM that came after him. During that time there were two economic models that were ruling the world, the USSR model was more suitable for us as our own situation was more similar to the USSR than USA, and we have followed a modified version of it with scope for private participation. Btw, most of the Indian leaders & intellectuals of that time were fascinated by the socialist model and success of USSR, Nehru was not alone.

I liked your this link: :)

The economics of Jawaharlal Nehru - Livemint
Mixed economy? No we did not. :( Private right to property was abolished.

Admiring or being fascinated by the Soviet Model is not a bad thing. Being obsessed and copying it from a to z is. Or rather was. We are the ones bearing the burden for that though.
 
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Mixed economy? No we did not. :( Private right to property was abolished.

Admiring or being fascinated by the Soviet Model is not a bad thing. Being obsessed and copying it from a to z is. Or rather was. We are the ones bearing the burden for that though.

There were several private companies running in India during his time, it was Indira who damaged the economy with rapid and mindless nationalization, not Nehru.
 
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There were several private companies running in India during his time, it was Indira who damaged the economy with rapid and mindless nationalization, not Nehru.
Yes, but how many were established WITHOUT Government intervention? :D
Secondly what major foreign or domestic investment happened in India? Compare the investments in Sri Lanka or Pakistan in comparison in the same period.
Also, Nehru laid the framework, while those who followed reaped the rewards.
 
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Nehru was good for the times uniting india under a known face with credibility and no bias towards anyone on any basis.
Had we started off with hindutva in 1947 we would have been divided inro 1000 pieces,anyone who doesnot agree needs to look at pakistan for an example.They had no credible leaders after jinnah's death and see what happened.

Nehru had faults but was an educated,unbiased and nationalistic person with massive appeal to masses.
 
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Yes, but how many were established WITHOUT Government intervention? :D
Secondly what major foreign or domestic investment happened in India? Compare the investments in Sri Lanka or Pakistan in comparison in the same period.
Also, Nehru laid the framework, while those who followed reaped the rewards.

Thid needs a long reply, I am coming back in the evening. :D
 
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Nehru was good for the times uniting india under a known face with credibility and no bias towards anyone on any basis.
Had we started off with hindutva in 1947 we would have been divided inro 1000 pieces,anyone who doesnot agree needs to look at pakistan for an example.They had no credible leaders after jinnah's death and see what happened.

Nehru had faults but was an educated,unbiased and nationalistic person with massive appeal to masses.
@[FONT=Georgia]DRAY[/FONT]
Without Nehruvian pseudo secularism, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO NEED for Hindutva. SP Mukherjee, one of the pioneers of Hindu politics in Independent India asked for this - Same country same law. Same Law For ALL. And what happened? He went to Kashmir to protest against a separate constitution for Kashmir (that exists till today). There he was treated to penicillin(knowing full well that he was ALLERGIC to it). After three days he was dead and burnt. His wife appealed for an autopsy WHICH THE GOVT. refused!

If even today there is a single law established for all, we can gracefully relieve ourselves off politics entirely. We will be most relieved. But this country, from the very beginning was NOT made a country of equals.

And yes, the Bengali bashers - read about both Vivekananda(the most important person for Hindu revival in 20th century India) and SP Mookherjee. Yes, both were Bengalis. And both died before their times. I can quote more. But begin with these two.
 
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@[FONT=Georgia]DRAY[/FONT]
Without Nehruvian pseudo secularism, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO NEED for Hindutva. SP Mukherjee, one of the pioneers of Hindu politics in Independent India asked for this - Same country same law. Same Law For ALL. And what happened? He went to Kashmir to protest against a separate constitution for Kashmir (that exists till today). There he was treated to penicillin(knowing full well that he was ALLERGIC to it). After three days he was dead and burnt. His wife appealed for an autopsy WHICH THE GOVT. refused!

If even today there is a single law established for all, we can gracefully relieve ourselves off politics entirely. We will be most relieved. But this country, from the very beginning was NOT made a country of equals.

And yes, the Bengali bashers - read about both Vivekananda(the most important person for Hindu revival in 20th century India) and SP Mookherjee. Yes, both were Bengalis. And both died before their times. I can quote more. But begin with these two.

Hindutva (the sangh parivaar version of it) existed long before the independence of India, it was not an after-effect of Nehru's policies. And my problem with the Hindutva brigade is that they are actually following the same path of hatred and intollerence of their radical Islamic counterparts, no they are not blowing up themselves en masse, at least not yet, but we have already seen a few strikingly similar incidents to believe that they have potential given more resources and state patronage, like their Islamic counterparts.

Coming back to the points you have raised, let me ask you;

1. What is your problem if they want to hold onto some archaic personal laws, that drags their society behind, not yours?

2. How a common personal law will end the culture of communal politics in India other than satisfying some egos and ruffling some others' egos?

3. Is some minority community truly above equal in India, isn't the appeasement politics nothing beyond tokenism?

Expecting answer. :)
 
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