Nawaz Sharif Wins; Imran Khan fails. The end of Imran Khan is now official. Nawaz Sharif returning to his original status of ruler of Pakistan.

[Ssan]

After the partition in Aug 1947, out of the 101 Muslims in India's civil service, 95 chose to leave India. A third (33%) of those civil servants were Punjabis

Liaquat Ali Khan introduced quota system in 1948 and restricted the quota of Punjab to 23% (Punjabis made up 28% of the population)

Now please tell us, based on numbers, how exactly could you claim that quota system was introduced to benefit Punjabis at the expense of Muhajirs and Bengalis??

Quite the contrary, If anything, these numbers prove that quota system was specifically designed to curtail Punjabi dominance in the open merit based civil services

Is it this?

Muhajir (Pakistani)

The Muhajir (Urdu: مہاجر‎, also spelled Mahajir and Mohajir) are Muslim immigrants, of multi-ethnic origin, and their descendants, who migrated from various regions of India after the Partition of India to settle in the newly independent state of Pakistan . The term Muhajirs refers to those...

encyclopedia.pub

This only supports what I said. That muhajjirs were over represented. It doesn’t talk about how the quotas affected muhajjirs- but at no point apparently we’re there less than 33% of the bureacracy. No reference to the supposed 47% again. Either way, quotas there to restrict muhajjirs-

In paper I cited earlier, you can see how quotas were used to limit the Bengalis.

 

[M. Sarmad]

This only supports what I said...

No, Sir, it doesn't support your baseless (or rather ridiculous I must say) assertion that quota system was introduced to benefit Punjabis at the expense of others. It proves exactly the opposite, that is, others were benefitted at the expense of Punjabis

 

[Ssan]

Also this isn’t the original source. Apparently this is copied from a book. Where the book points to is not clear. The orginal source is from this book “Asian Bureaucratic Traditions Emergent from the British Imperial Tradition” which have to pay to access.

No, Sir, it doesn't support your baseless (or rather ridiculous I must say) assertion that quota system was introduced to benefit Punjabis at the expense of others. It proves exactly the opposite, that is, others were benefitted at the expense of Punjabis

Nope.

The quota system- how it was created and how it was applied has harmfully affected a lot of people. But most importantly, the muhajjirs have been hurt and Punjabis have been benefited.

Also I read the blurb from the book- the third that are Punjabi is a reference to the muhajjirs who were punjabi speaking as opposed to Urdu-speaking.

And actually the third chapter of this book is a good read. Essentially, to summarize, muhajjirs dominated bureaucracy - Punjabis dominated army. In book pdf available for free about pages 104-117

http://www.sanipanhwar.com/The%20Pakistan%20Paradox_%20Instability%20and%20Resilience.pdf

“In 1947, the Muhajirs enjoyed real prestige in Sindh. They had been the driving force in the creation of Pakistan and had given up everything to go and live there. They dominated the state through the Muslim League, their party, and its two leaders, Jinnah as Governor General and Liaquat Ali Khan, the Prime Minister, whom the Quaid-e-Azam referred to as his “right hand man”.35 Muhajirs also took over the economy. Out of the 42 largest private companies, 36 belonged to Muhajirs—mostly from Gujarat (be they Bohras, Khojas or Sunnis, like the Memons).36 Last but not least, the Muhajirs also dominated the civil service (95 out of the 101 Muslims in the Indian Civil Service chose to leave India, among whom a third were Punjabis and many were Urdu-speakers)37 and the professions. In Sindh prior to Partition, the occupations of lawyer, teacher and tradesman had generally been the preserve of Hindus who left in droves after 1947. The Muhajirs thus touted their expertise in these areas and filled the vacancies generated by the exodus. Still in the early 1960s, 34.5 per cent of the civil servants of Pakistan were not born in the areas which had formed the country in 1947—many of them came from the former United Provinces.”

 

[M. Sarmad]

Also this isn’t the original source. Apparently this is copied from a book. Where the book points to is not clear.

As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Have a nice day

 

[Ssan]

As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Have a nice day

You too kind sir

 

[StormBreaker]

[This is] the established way of Allah with those who passed on before; and you will not find in the way of Allah any change. Al-Ahzab 33:62


Even today God shows dream to his people about Pakistan.

Not claiming anything but I must share another observation;

I found that the fire was about to die; but people collected wood, rearranged it and in fact blew and got the fire kindled.

So concerned people are working on it, Pakistan won't default. It'll be back on track.

Is default the biggest issue in your eyes ? You are lost brother !

 

[villageidiot]

Very fair criticism but pretty sure it's not just Punjab who has this type of mentality, it's practically everyone.

And it's not going to go away because you all hate each other, especially Pashtuns they despise basically everyone

Whole of Pakistan is jahil, but I would probably put the list like like this -

Least Jahil to most Jahil:

Muhajir (top lads)
Punjabis (accommodating group, don't hate others)
Sindhis (somewhat accommodating but can sometimes hate others)
Pashtuns (Hates everyone, not accommodating, beware for life)
Baloch (don't risk it if in Balochistan)

I think the top 2 groups are least likely to vote according to ethnic affiliations.

Is is just me or do you also see a direct correlation with socioeconomic situation of said ethnicities? Maybe put Pashtuns on no.3 and sindhis on no.4 but the rest looks eerily correlated.

 

[Vapnope]

The usual diatribe against Punjabis is the favourite past time of some racist non punjabis.

Your province is not working well, blame Punjabis.
You don't have clean drinking water, blame punjabis.
You favorite political leader is in trouble, blame punjabis.
Ghar main acha khana ni bna, blame punjabis.

Punjabis have been killed in KPk, Baluchistan and Sindh for being punjabis and you will not find non-punjabis getting killed in Punjab for being non-punjabi.
The matter of the fact is that Punjabi hatred in Sindh dates back to early 20th century before Pakistan creation.
The hatred in KPK dates back to even beyond 20th century.

You cannot hide behind your usual rhetoric that Punjabis did this and that after 1947.

 

[Ssan]

Is is just me or do you also see a direct correlation with socioeconomic situation of said ethnicities? Maybe put Pashtuns on no.3 and sindhis on no.4 but the rest looks eerily correlated.

Yeah definitely true most likely. But I think it’s also perverted now because of ideology- especially that hateful neo-Marxist crap that Bhutto made so popular. That’s also lead to increase in racism probably.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Also this isn’t the original source. Apparently this is copied from a book. Where the book points to is not clear. The orginal source is from this book “Asian Bureaucratic Traditions Emergent from the British Imperial Tradition” which have to pay to access.


Nope.

The quota system- how it was created and how it was applied has harmfully affected a lot of people. But most importantly, the muhajjirs have been hurt and Punjabis have been benefited.

Also I read the blurb from the book- the third that are Punjabi is a reference to the muhajjirs who were punjabi speaking as opposed to Urdu-speaking.

And actually the third chapter of this book is a good read. Essentially, to summarize, muhajjirs dominated bureaucracy - Punjabis dominated army. In book pdf available for free about pages 104-117

http://www.sanipanhwar.com/The%20Pakistan%20Paradox_%20Instability%20and%20Resilience.pdf

“In 1947, the Muhajirs enjoyed real prestige in Sindh. They had been the driving force in the creation of Pakistan and had given up everything to go and live there. They dominated the state through the Muslim League, their party, and its two leaders, Jinnah as Governor General and Liaquat Ali Khan, the Prime Minister, whom the Quaid-e-Azam referred to as his “right hand man”.35 Muhajirs also took over the economy. Out of the 42 largest private companies, 36 belonged to Muhajirs—mostly from Gujarat (be they Bohras, Khojas or Sunnis, like the Memons).36 Last but not least, the Muhajirs also dominated the civil service (95 out of the 101 Muslims in the Indian Civil Service chose to leave India, among whom a third were Punjabis and many were Urdu-speakers)37 and the professions. In Sindh prior to Partition, the occupations of lawyer, teacher and tradesman had generally been the preserve of Hindus who left in droves after 1947. The Muhajirs thus touted their expertise in these areas and filled the vacancies generated by the exodus. Still in the early 1960s, 34.5 per cent of the civil servants of Pakistan were not born in the areas which had formed the country in 1947—many of them came from the former United Provinces.”

You have edited your post and added some details. I would like to correct you here. The reference "chose to leave India" points to the choice made by those ICS officers to leave Indian Civil services and join Pakistan's. Not that they were "Muhajirs".

The fact remains that out of all civil services officers that Pakistan had/got in 1947 (less than 100), one third were Punjabis. They were not only higher in numbers but also dominated the bureaucracy. As stated earlier, even the committee formed to induct officers into center govt services was exclusively made up of Punjabi bureaucrats. The quota system was essentially designed to curtail Punjabi dominance in bureaucracy and give Muhajirs undue advantage, which they enjoyed until 1970s at least . Hope that helps clear up your confusion

Regards

 

[TheSolution]

Is is just me or do you also see a direct correlation with socioeconomic situation of said ethnicities? Maybe put Pashtuns on no.3 and sindhis on no.4 but the rest looks eerily correlated.

Yes, less educated groups are stuck in the past and in old historical rivalries refusing to open up a bit more or be tolerant, whereas more educated ones judge the world by today's standards and don't have extreme hatred unless it's justified according to today's dynamics.

 

[Ssan]

You have edited your post and added some details. I would like to correct you here. The reference "chose to leave India" points to the choice made by those ICS officers to leave Indian Civil services and join Pakistan's. Not that they were "Muhajirs".

The fact remains that out of all civil services officers that Pakistan had/got in 1947 (less than 100), one third were Punjabis. They were not only higher in numbers but also dominated the bureaucracy. As stated earlier, even the committee formed to induct officers into center govt services was exclusively made up of Punjabi bureaucrats. Hope that helps clear up your confusion

Regards

The book that the article quoted- as far up as I could go without having to pay- says the following- it is pretty clear this is a reference to muhajjir bureaucrats. Not to non-Muhajir Punjabis. The whole paragraph is in reference to muhajirs and how they dominated the nascent bureaucracy in 1947. More so than the Punjabis according to the book. If you read the rest of the chapter. Which is a good read.

 

[M. Sarmad]

The book that the article quoted- as far up as I could go without having to pay- says the following- it is pretty clear this is a reference to muhajjir bureaucrats. Not to non-Muhajir Punjabis. The whole paragraph is in reference to muhajirs and how they dominated the nascent bureaucracy in 1947. More so than the Punjabis according to the book. If you read the rest of the chapter. Which is a good read.

The book indeed is pretty much clear on what it says. It tells us that there were 101 Muslim ICS officers in undivided British India in 1947 at the eve of partition and out of them 95 chose to serve Pakistan and the remaining 6 chose to continue serving ICS/India (3 of them I know were Punjabi Muslims). Then it goes on to tell us that of those 95 officers who chose to serve Pakistan, one third were Punjabis. It further tells us that there were many Urdu-speakers as well but no numbers are given.

As for Punjabi Muhajirs, they have never identified themselves as Muhajirs. In fact, as much as one fourth of Punjab's entire population comprised of immigrants from East Punjab as per the 1951 census. When we talk about Muhajirs, we do not include Punjabi Muhajirs. The numbers/stats that have been shared on this thread are for Non-Punjabi immigrants who made Sindh their home after 1947.

Moreover, your claim that Muhajirs dominated nascent Pakistani bureaucracy is misleading in the sense that it was the quota system introduced in 1948 by Liaquat Ali that helped Muhajirs dominate Pakistan Bureaucracy in the early years of our existence. The Muhajirs couldn't have dominated bureaucracy (or economy for that matter) had it not been for Muhajir-friendly policies implemented rigorously by Liaquat Ali Khan, a Muhajir himself.

But those are things of the past. They are irrelevant now. Everyone has contributed significantly to the state of Pakistan. But you guys should not twist and distort history and facts to play victims when you clearly aren't. I know it's a bit hard for you to accept that Punjab is not the villain, as you have grown up listening to anti-Punjab rhetoric that no one bothers to verify/challenge

 

[SIPRA]

The book indeed is pretty much clear on what it says. It tells us that there were 101 Muslim ICS officers in undivided British India in 1947 at the eve of partition and out of them 95 chose to serve Pakistan and the remaining 6 chose to continue serving ICS/India (3 of them I know were Punjabi Muslims). Then it goes on to tell us that of those 95 officers who chose to serve Pakistan, one third were Punjabis. It further tells us that there were many Urdu-speakers as well but no numbers are given.

As for Punjabi Muhajirs, they have never identified themselves as Muhajirs. In fact, as much as one fourth of Punjab's entire population comprised of immigrants from East Punjab as per the 1951 census. When we talk about Muhajirs, we do not include Punjabi Muhajirs. The numbers/stats that have been shared on this thread are for Non-Punjabi immigrants who made Sindh their home after 1947.

Moreover, your claim that Muhajirs dominated nascent Pakistani bureaucracy is misleading in the sense that it was the quota system introduced in 1948 by Liaquat Ali that helped Muhajirs dominate Pakistan Bureaucracy in the early years of our existence. The Muhajirs couldn't have dominated bureaucracy (or economy for that matter) had it not been for Muhajir-friendly policies implemented vigorously by Liaquat Ali Khan, a Muhajir himself.

But those are things of the past. They are irrelevant now. Everyone has contributed significantly to the state of Pakistan. But you guys should not twist and distort history and facts to play victims when you clearly aren't. I know it's a bit hard for you to accept that Punjab is not the villain, as you have grown up listening to anti-Punjab rhetoric that no one bothers to verify/challenge

Excellent post.

 

[ghazi52]

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