Nawaz Sharif Wins; Imran Khan fails. The end of Imran Khan is now official. Nawaz Sharif returning to his original status of ruler of Pakistan.

[Goenitz]

The muhajjirs never asked for quotas. We were against it from day one. Remove the quotas altogether. The quotas even in 1948 were placed to limit the muhajjirs not to assist us. And also the Bengalis.

Quota system shouldn't be there, especially for Muhajir and Punjabis etc. But should be there for Balochis and FATA people. The biggest good thing Kiyani did was recruitment relaxation from Balochistan. This made them the mainstream in the army.

Quota system must exist for people who have been historically deprived/marginalised due to geography, politics, etc., including desert people.

 

[Goenitz]

Pakistan has also never had a truly intelligent visionary leader that is a nationalist.

The truth is because this society allows nepotism and corruption to thrive, they engage in severe jahiliyat, each and every one of them, some on more extreme levels than others.

The main reason for this is Pakistan is a new country. It should be a federation because of its diversity.
Anyway, we have been living in a feudal society for millenniums. It worked mainly on caste, clan, and tribe support. Hence, nepotism was a necessity and considered legitimate. Accountbility can occur anyway.

We had regional leaders. The nationalistic approach appeared after Sir Syed Khan when he coined that Muslims are one nation.

Consider that before Islam, everyone was recognised through his tribe. After that, Hz Bilal, Hz Salman, Quresh, Ansar etc all became one nation. It occurred very fast bcz of the best Leader SW, was present at that time.

So it will take time in our case.

The question is, what should be Pakistan's identity? It can loosely relate to religion as we have a variety of it. So, that is the issue that what is the point that all ethnicity, firqah, and religion can agree on the same thing.

 

[SabzShaheen]

I am a Baloch sir, Pukhtoon Baloch to be precise and I can assure that we hate none, don’t buy that propaganda.

then who are are you referring to when you say “you kill”, “you make the minorities disappear”
And “our day will come”?
You think everyone is stupid to believe in your Taqiyya that while you spew vitriol and thinly-veiled threats against Punjabis, we should also believe you have no intentions of a united Pakistan?
Ethnic nationalism of all types is cancer

You kill, you make the minorities disappear, so many Missing Baloch, so many pukhtoons dead because you sold their blood for dollars and joined wot.

Like I said our day will come, nothing is forgiven, nothing is forgotten, if not in our life time then in our children’s life time but justice will be served.

 

[M. Sarmad]

... Our entire bureaucracy came for UP, including politicians like Liaqat Alikhan, Bogra, etc.

That's not true. The Muslim ICS officers, 81 in numbers, who opted for Pakistan came from virtually every province of British India but they were led by Punjabi Muslim Bureaucrats.

Even the 5-member Committee formed after independence, for induction into the Civil Service, was exclusively Punjabi. It was headed by Pakistan’s top civil servant, Chaudhry Mohammad Ali (later Prime Minister) a Punjabi Arain. Of the remaining 4 members, 2 (Aziz Ahmed and Ghulam Muhammad) were Punjabis and 2 were Europeans.

But they inducted everyone. They weren't racists. And here we have @Ssan trying to tell us that quota system was introduced to favor Punjabis over Muhajirs ...

 

[Goenitz]

That's not true. The Muslim ICS officers, 81 in numbers, who opted for Pakistan came from virtually every province of British India but they were led by Punjabi Muslim Bureaucrats.

Even the 5-member Committee formed after independence, for induction into the Civil Service, was exclusively Punjabi. It was headed by Pakistan’s top civil servant, Chaudhry Mohammad Ali (later Prime Minister) a Punjabi Arain. Of the remaining 4 members, 2 (Aziz Ahmed and Ghulam Muhammad) were Punjabis and 2 were Europeans.

But they inducted everyone. They weren't racists. And here we have @Ssan trying to tell us that quota system was introduced to favor Punjabis over Muhajirs ...

I will not question your data, Sir. I know you must be right.
I just heard the majority were from UP, and many M.League sympathisers bureaucrats were from that area due to Aligarh etc.

 

[SecularNationalist]

Congratulations

For what pajeet?

 

[M. Sarmad]

I will not question your data, Sir. I know you must be right.
I just heard the majority were from UP, and many M.League sympathisers bureaucrats were from that area due to Aligarh etc.

The majority of them may have been from Northern provinces or the Bengal cadre. But the most prominent of them were from Punjab. Doesn't make any difference. It's rather unfortunate when someone tries to blame everything, including their own failures and shortcomings, on Punjab and Punjabis. And it happens quite often. A lot of Ethnic propaganda and lies, esp. against Punjab, is blindly accepted without anyone bothering to verify it

 

[HAIDER]

 

[Ssan]

That's not true. The Muslim ICS officers, 81 in numbers, who opted for Pakistan came from virtually every province of British India but they were led by Punjabi Muslim Bureaucrats.

Even the 5-member Committee formed after independence, for induction into the Civil Service, was exclusively Punjabi. It was headed by Pakistan’s top civil servant, Chaudhry Mohammad Ali (later Prime Minister) a Punjabi Arain. Of the remaining 4 members, 2 (Aziz Ahmed and Ghulam Muhammad) were Punjabis and 2 were Europeans.

But they inducted everyone. They weren't racists. And here we have @Ssan trying to tell us that quota system was introduced to favor Punjabis over Muhajirs ...

You are making several logical fallacies.

First, in 1948, the quotas were 2% for Karachi and 15% for those with no domicile. As people got domiciled, they would not qualify for the 15%, so it was there in the beginning only to account for how many muhajjirs were already part of the bureacracy and resettling. In the long run, as the migration ended, this too would end.

As we have all been told, the quotas were placed on Karachi at 2% because they saw that most muhajjirs were migrating there and wanted to limit their future proportion in the bureaucracy.

Secondly, even if we assume that muhajjir quota was supposed to be 17%, (no domicile and Karachi), the proportion of muhajjirs has never been less than 20% at any time prior to the 60s-70s. Here is a reference that has numbers to this effect.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Katharine-Adeney/publication/233083586_The_Limitations_of_Non-consociational_Federalism_The_Example_of_Pakistan/links/567c27da08ae051f9ae193b6/The-Limitations-of-Non-consociational-Federalism-The-Example-of-Pakistan.pdf?origin=publication_detail

Unf, I am not able to find the numbers from before 1948. That would end this discussion. Again would love to be proven wrong. But I have read in numerous places that Bengalis and Muhajjirs were dominating nascent bureacracy- Muslim league.

In any case, as the paper above highlights, the proportion of muhajjirs in the bureaucracy was sharply curtailed eventually. But the proportion of Punjabis was always raised. Initially at expense of Bengalis primarily. Then at expense of Sindhis. The quotas were only there to limit muhajjirs.

The majority of them may have been from Northern provinces or the Bengal cadre. But the most prominent of them were from Punjab. Doesn't make any difference. It's rather unfortunate when someone tries to blame everything, including their own failures and shortcomings, on Punjab and Punjabis. And it happens quite often. A lot of Ethnic propaganda and lies, esp. against Punjab, is blindly accepted without anyone bothering to verify it

Okay so you admit it. What are we arguing about then. That Punjabis played a major role. Yes they did. So did every group.

 

[M. Sarmad]

You are making several logical fallacies.

First, in 1948, the quotas were 2% for Karachi and 15% for those with no domicile. As people got domiciled, they would not qualify for the 15%, so it was there in the beginning only to account for how many muhajjirs were already part of the bureacracy and resettling. In the long run, as the migration ended, this too would end.

As we have all been told, the quotas were placed on Karachi at 2% because they saw that most muhajjirs were migrating there and wanted to limit their future proportion in the bureaucracy.

Secondly, even if we assume that muhajjir quota was supposed to be 17%, (no domicile and Karachi), the proportion of muhajjirs has never been less than 20% at any time prior to the 60s-70s. Here is a reference that has numbers to this effect.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Katharine-Adeney/publication/233083586_The_Limitations_of_Non-consociational_Federalism_The_Example_of_Pakistan/links/567c27da08ae051f9ae193b6/The-Limitations-of-Non-consociational-Federalism-The-Example-of-Pakistan.pdf?origin=publication_detail

Unf, I am not able to find the numbers from before 1948. That would end this discussion. Again would love to be proven wrong. But I have read in numerous places that Bengalis and Muhajjirs were dominating nascent bureacracy- Muslim league.

In any case, as the paper above highlights, the proportion of muhajjirs in the bureaucracy was sharply curtailed eventually. But the proportion of Punjabis was always raised. Initially at expense of Bengalis primarily. Then at expense of Sindhis. The quotas were only there to limit muhajjirs.


Okay so you admit it. What are we arguing about then. That Punjabis played a major role. Yes they did. So did every group.

Well, Punjab too is Northern India. You have completely missed the point.

As for the rest of your post, there's nothing new in it. No point going in circles. I have already posted facts and figures. Muhajirs were not the victims but the beneficiaries of the quota system introduced by Liaquat Ali.

Despite constituting only three percent of the population, they held nearly 21 percent of the jobs. By 1950, due to the quota system and formation of 'one unit' in west Pakistan, the Muhajirs’ share in the civil service had increased to around 47 percent.

 

[Ssan]

Well, Punjab too is Northern India. You have completely missed the point.

As for the rest of your post, there's nothing new in it. No point going in circles. I have already posted facts and figures. Muhajirs were not the victims but the beneficiaries of the quota system introduced by Liaquat Ali

You haven’t posted a single relevant fact or figure quite literally.

All you have posted are opinions. My point stands which I have proven with facts and figures- that the quota system was enforced to disadvantage muhajjirs and Bengalis. And to privilege primarily Punjabis.

Anyways, coming back to the point of this thread, the establishment does indeed play ethnic biases as is clear from the discussion above. And what happened in the east Pakistan. And what is happening in Baluchistan too.

Do they do it to create regional ethnic tension that they can then puppeteer? Maybe

 

[M. Sarmad]

The quota system was enforced to disadvantage muhajjirs and Bengalis. And to privilege primarily Punjabis.

As they say, Denial ain't just a river in Egypt

Read this again and tell us which part is too hard for you to comprehend:


Despite constituting only 3 percent of the population, the Muhajirs held nearly 21 percent of the jobs. By 1950, due to the quota system and formation of 'one unit' in west Pakistan, the Muhajirs’ share in the civil service had increased to around 47 percent.

Punjabis OTOH, despite making up 28% of the population, only had a 23% quota in civil services which further decreased after the formation of one unit in West Pakistan

 

[Ssan]

Ethnic nationalism of all types is cancer

agreed. So wouldn’t you also logically agree that taasub ki politics, aka, jaag punjabi jaag, humara para likha Punjab party, aka N league is also a cancer to Pakistan.

As they say, Denial ain't just a river in Egypt

Read this again and tell us which part is too hard for you to comprehend:


Despite constituting only 3 percent of the population, the Muhajirs held nearly 21 percent of the jobs. By 1950, due to the quota system and formation of 'one unit' in west Pakistan, the Muhajirs’ share in the civil service had increased to around 47 percent.

Punjabis OTOH, despite making up 28% of the population, only had a 23% quota in civil services which further decreased after the formation of one unit in West Pakistan

Okay let’s get the facts straight. I too am curious where you found this 47% number. Can you please post a source if you have it? Not that I deny it but that this supports my argument anyways.

To reiterate, my argument is as follows:- muhajjirs and Bengalis formed the majority (more than 50%) of the new Pakistans bureacracy. To limit their influence, quotas were introduced. For muhajjirs, this quota was much lower than what their numbers were in the bureaucracy. (As in, the quotas were not to our benefit, last I checked 15% conditional and 2% final is a lot lower than the 47% you have posted).

In addition, the way the quotas were enforced disadvantaged Bengalis first and then Sindhis later. At the benefit of a Punjabis. The article I posted has evidence of this.

Nothing you have listed goes against my argument. In fact, supports it. If Ivy League universities tomorrow would say that we are going to give Jews 10% quotas in our universities, the Jews would be pissed not pleased. That is because they make up far more than that currently - even though they are 2% of the US population, they make up 30% of the population in Ivy leagues.

 

[Mirzali Khan]

View attachment 907592

Wait bro so then how tf did they start riding Punjabi identity then

Does no one question their roots when they say "Jag Punjab Jag"

 

[Mirzali Khan]

Yes, there are neutral sources that say Ahmad Shah was born in Multan

And then there are Pashtun racist sources that vehemently deny this

You obviously accept the latter

Nothing more to discuss here

Hindu and Sikh sources say otherwise.

Oxford and University of Toronto aren't "racist Pashtun sources" lmfaoo.