Navy may lease Kilo-class subs from Russia

[Sergi]

Bro the deal for the leasing of the second Akula is entirely unrelated to the P-75I deal/Russian offer. As this is NOT a govt-govt deal but an OPEN tender there is zero scope for such "sweeteners"/side deals. The 2nd Akula will be leased IMHO by the IN but will have no baring on the P-75I.

I think the elongated Scorpene with AIP and Bhramos launch capabilty is a pretty sound bet for the P-75I- IMHO.

I hope you are right
But there is always a lot what we cant see. My guess is still russian platform. Lets wait and see

 

[Abingdonboy]

I hope you are right
But there is always a lot what we cant see. My guess is still russian platform. Lets wait and see

Bro there are now two ways about it! The P-75I is an open tender. Any side deals are completely disallowed, this would quite rightly prompt the likes of France and Spain and Germany to take the Indian govt to arbitration. There is meant to be a level playing field.

 

[Sergi]

Bro there are now two ways about it! The P-75I is an open tender. Any side deals are completely disallowed, this would quite rightly prompt the likes of France and Spain and Germany to take the Indian govt to arbitration. There is meant to be a level playing field.

You can blindly agree with me that these three cant compete with Russians on price. But question is what IN want ? Russian subs have served us well and we will be having kilos around for while. If I have to make a deal and get all I want from everybody price will play the role. And if I get something more than what I am paying its just why not !!!

And fields can be rearranged. Its just few years back we started using life cost , from MMRCA.

 

[Abingdonboy]

You can blindly agree with me that these three cant compete with Russians on price. But question is what IN want ? Russian subs have served us well and we will be having kilos around for while. If I have to make a deal and get all I want from everybody price will play the role. And if I get something more than what I am paying its just why not !!!

And fields can be rearranged. Its just few years back we started using life cost , from MMRCA.

The days when cost were the deciding factor in such defence deals are LONG gone bro. It is all about quality/capability these days.

 

[SQ8]

Leasing makes sense if India wishes to go to war in a month or so. Otherwise , the existing plans are sufficient and better value for money.

 

[Sergi]

The days when cost were the deciding factor in such defence deals are LONG gone bro. It is all about quality/capability these days.

Not arguing on price.
- We are NOT unhappy with Russian subs. They have served us well
- If they can produce AIP as they claimed to be better than existing AIPs why not ???
- If the capabilities aren't different then price will be a deciding factor.
Question is if we get all what we want from Russian there is very thin chance that they will lose.

AIP and vertical launch tubes.

 

[faithfulguy]

Agreed but AFAIK the follow-on 3 were set to be built only after the first batch of 6 were complete and were set to be built in India. There wasn't much talk of construction in India before this.

As of now, India should buy some subs off the shelf. At the same time, set up the facility to build in house. If India is getting 12 subs, it should get some subs ASAP and that would be buying a few off the shelf.

 

[surya kiran]

@Abingdonboy The news is indeed fallacious. There is no scope for leasing a conventional diesel electric submarine. Furthermore, IF the MOD has any sense, the Kilo class submarines should be avoided at all costs. The Indian Navy has repeatedly asserted that it has received a far better performance from the HDW Type-209 class submarines in comparison to the operational capabilities of the Kilo subs.

Capabilities are different. The Shishumar class cannot fire cruise missiles. What IN may have mentioned may be about availability, not capability.

 

[Dillinger]

Capabilities are different. The Shishumar class cannot fire cruise missiles. What IN may have mentioned may be about availability, not capability.

In essence the Kilo class submarines can deploy tube launched Klub-S missiles only and do not offer any specific growth options. Beyond that the Type-209 torp tubes can easily accommodate ASCMs/ASMs like the Harpoon with some tweaks (Chang Bogo upgrade for the South Korean Navy subs and even the IN has expressed interest in similar plans to equip the Shishumar class subs with the Block-2 harpoon variant-http://www.indianexpress.com/news/navy-plans-missiles-for-four-submarines/964143/0). Such an upgrade would invalidate any concern regarding the lack of ASM/ASCMs aboard the sub and bridge the gap wrt Kilo subs. The Kilo's ability to operate with the Klub missile complex (tube launched, after refit), with the Klub-S's relatively superior range, was advantageous for littoral anti shipping ops but the Shishumar operating with the Harpoon and AIP plug-in can do the same just as well.

For concerns regrading how operationally suitable a Type-209 submarine shall be in the future while lacking any VLS capability:- There is a reason why the Scorpene does not have any VLS modules for CMs and will not have any either despite anyone's wishes (in fact the 533 mm torpedo tubes on the Scorpene will ensure that no large CM can be employed whatsoever even if they be tube launched- short of the Exocet or Harpoon ASCMs). The reason is quite simple, the requirement for CM (apart from tube launched ASCMs) launch capability on SSKs is primarily predicated upon the non-availability of larger nuclear powered platforms which can perform such operations far more effectively (best example:- Type 032 subs being built for export purposes to countries which cannot and will not be able to build/acquire nuclear marine platforms). This is the same reason why all future conventional submarines from the Type-216 (which MAY have a planned VLS module IF the Australians pick it for the Collins replacement program) and the A-26 to the S-80 do not require VLS modules (thus allowing only the use of certain types of ASCMs). A Scorpene launching an Exocet, which due to being housed within a VSM can be launched from deeper depths, is far more suitable for discrete submarine operations against surface combatants in littoral waters.


As we move into the next decade SSKs, which primarily operate in littoral waters, will have no business operating with LACMs (in case someone wants to fit in a land attack variant of the Brahmos on a SSK) or very heavy ASCMs- an exocet or harpoon will do the job just as well. Unless there is a specific case made for the sub-launched Brahmos being operated from select conventional platforms, which still would be more suited on board a SSN.

Furthermore, you must take note of the fact that as we sit on our hands the window of opportunity to use the dearly bought know how and know why wrt Type-209 diminishes. Also once you have the know how and the know why in hand, up-scaling a design is as easy as manufacturing the original variant- specially when the design has been up-scaled by the OEM successfully before. Bare in mind that the Kilo subs are larger but even they do not offer VLS launch capabilities and the Klub variant primarily found on them (3M-54E1) has the same performance parameters as the Harpoon block-2 as such.
@Abingdonboy something to add perhaps?

 

[Abingdonboy]

In essence the Kilo class submarines can deploy tube launched Klub-S missiles only and do not offer any specific growth options. Beyond that the Type-209 torp tubes can easily accommodate ASCMs/ASMs like the Harpoon with some tweaks (Chang Bogo upgrade for the South Korean Navy subs and even the IN has expressed interest in similar plans to equip the Shishumar class subs with the Block-2 harpoon variant-Navy plans missiles for four submarines - Indian Express). Such an upgrade would invalidate any concern regarding the lack of ASM/ASCMs aboard the sub and bridge the gap wrt Kilo subs. The Kilo's ability to operate with the Klub missile complex (tube launched, after refit), with the Klub-S's relatively superior range, was advantageous for littoral anti shipping ops but he Shishumar operating with the Harpoon and AIP plug-in can do the same just as well.

For concerns regrading how operationally suitable a Type-209 submarine shall be in the future while lacking any VLS capability:- There is a reason why the Scorpene does not have any VLS modules for CMs and will not have any either despite anyone's wishes (in fact the 533 mm torpedo tubes on the Scorpene will ensure that no large CM can be employed whatsoever even if they be tube launched- short of the Exocet or Harpoon ASCMs). The reason is quite simple, the requirement for CM (apart from tube launched ASCMs) launch capability on SSKs is primarily predicated upon the non-availability of larger nuclear powered platforms which can perform such operations far more effectively (best example:- Type 032 subs being built for export purposes to countries which cannot and will not be able to build/acquire nuclear marine platforms). This is the same reason why all future conventional submarines from the Type-216 (which MAY have a planned VLS module IF the Australians pick it for the Collins replacement program) and the A-26 to the S-80 do not require VLS modules (thus allowing only the use of certain types of ASCMs). A Scorpene launching an Exocet, which due to being housed within a VSM can be launched from deeper depths, is far more suitable for discrete submarine operations against surface combatants in littoral waters.


As we move into the next decade SSKs, which primarily operate in littoral waters, will have no business operating with LACMs (in case someone wants to fit in a land attack variant of the Brahmos on a SSK) or very heavy ASCMs- an exocet or harpoon will do the job just as well. Unless there is a specific case made for the sub-launched Brahmos being operated from select conventional platforms, which still would be more suited on board a SSN.

Furthermore, you must take note of the fact that as we sit on our hands the window of opportunity to use the dearly bought know how and know why wrt Type-209 diminishes. Also once you have the know how and the know why in hand, up-scaling a design is as easy as manufacturing the original variant- specially when the design has been up-scaled by the OEM successfully before. Bare in mind that the Kilo subs are larger but even they do not offer VLS launch capabilities and the Klub variant primarily found on them (3M-54E1) has the same performance parameters as the Harpoon block-2 as such.
@Abingdonboy something to add perhaps?

Not much really- this is a superb right up bro!


I think you make a valid point about the SSKs being suited to local/coastal protection duties and the need for Bhramos lauch capabilty is rather limited expect for a few hulls. But in the absence of any SSNs with this capabilty in IN hands as of now- it's the only option the IN's got.

 

[cirr]

Perhaps India should explore the possibility of exchanging its GDP for the service of the entire Russian armed forces。

 

[fast]

Russians better charge a lot of money up front for leasing the subs to India. Those are as much as considered gone once Indians got their hands on them. You never know when they will blow them up again.

 

[sudhir007]

Why can we increase the Scorpene order and instead of building it in India build it in france?

Totally agree with you.