NATO Forces Kill 13 Pak FC's out of a total of 27!

[salman nedian]

indiapakistanfriendship,
Let’s call Russia to use the route of Gwadar port I think that would create pressure on US.

 

[ejaz007]

No matter what the situation is an attack inside Pakistan must be retaliated with whatever force one has at its disposal. Cowards look for excuses. What is the point of maintaining 500,000 troops if they can't defend against 50,000 or so US, ISAF and Afghan soldiers.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

Let’s call Russia to use the route of Gwadar port I think that would create pressure on US.

Why does Russia need Gwadar when Central asia is their backyard and oil pipelines carry oil to Europe through existing land routes such as Ukraine.

Also Russia will not involve itself because

1. It has its hands already full with NATO's Eastern expansion and the mushrooming of pro westen governmnets in its backyard.

2. Millitants from Afghanistan had threatend the stability of central asia and had challenged Russias dominance in Central asian muslim states.

3. WOT will releive pressure from Russia on the Chechen front, Afghanistan used to be the primary recruitment ground for Chechen rebels. Now with their hands full fighting the NATO, Russia has found breathing space to consolidate its hold over Chechenya.

4. Today if NATO does not take contro of such radical elements, soon enough after America these elements will focus their attention on Russia. So the Russians are happy that US is doing their job for them.

5. After the previous invasion and debacle Russia will not thin of engaging Afghanistan physically, also they will be happy that US is pounding those who gave a hard nose to them.

Cheers

 

[vish]

Re: Afghan Forces Kill 13 Pak FC's!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We will not do anything. We have become too coward and self centred, these incidents hardly make any difference. If they would have had, then we would have not sit idle when oridinary pakistanies got killed as a result of mis-information on the part of the US. Now they have started to attack our security personal. I dont see why this government would act any different this time. No they wont. The only thing that matters to us is to restore the corrupt judiciary, rest can all go to

Unquote.

Hon Members and Compatriots.

Let us analyse the situation.

Firstly from the side of the US/Nato:

Let us suppose that someone comes into your house; beats up the women folk and breaks a few windows. He then runs away and hides in your neighbours house. What would you do? The situation as Karzai govt and NATO sees it, is no different.

Now from Pakistan's side:

MMA and Islamists stance.

Pashtoons are our brothers and fellow Muslims and they are being wrongly done by NATO and the US. These are infidels; Afghan Pashtoons are fighting a jihad and we should do every thing we can to help.

Mush/PML-Q govt stance:

No foreign troops shall take action inside Pakistan territory and if any action is to be taken it will be by our own troops.

Current Govt/ANP policy:
Appeasing the extremist elements, in a way letting them get even stronger.

IMO, none of the above policy is correct. Unfortunately, it is not the court of law. MIGHT is right. Taliban/AlQaida/ Pakistani Islamic extremists are bent upon imposing their will by force. May this be in Afghanistan or inside Pakistan territory? They use whatever means they have at their disposal, including suicide bombing against soft targets at the time and place of their choice; whether it is against Nato/Afghan forces or against Pakistani forces as well Pakistani civilians.

US/Nato on the other hand, use their might against what they suspect is the hiding place of Taliban/Al Qaida, regardless of where it is even though it is across international boundary.

Trouble is, Pakistan has done the same thing against India and got away with it because we are strong enough to defend ourselves against Indians. Even then Musharraf was forced to declare "Pakistani soil will not be allowed to be used against our neighbours" a few years ago.

NATO is far stronger proposition. While NATO forces are finding it difficult to fight Taliban/ AlQaida guerrilla fighters. Against conventional troops their superior fire power will be very effective and PA wouldn’t do much better than Iraqi forces. The scenario prevented by Musharraf's ’U’ turn would come true.

What is to be done? Pakistan is a peaceful country and wants to live in peace with her neighbours. We had no territorial claim on any part of Afghanistan. We should therefore do all we can to avoid the fight between Taliban/Al Qaida and US/NATO into a fight between Pakistan and NATO. Can’t you see that it is the aim of MMA, Islamic extremists and Taliban to embroil Pakistan in their quarrel? So what if Pakistan is sent back to the middle ages! This is the aim of Taliban and their supporters any way, when they bomb girl’s schools, barber shops and video shops.

Now to answer the post quoted above.

We are unable to control Waziristan and Swat. If we take over Afghan Pashtoon areas, how you do suppose we would control the problem multiplied tenfold. We would be taken over by Taliban’s instead and ruled by warlords as in Somalia. Is that what you want??

Hon Iceman. It is not a question of cowardice. Sometimes it is better to run away to fight another day. It is a question of prudence.

Pakistan is a gift of Allah, but alas we don’t deserve it. Main objective of any government is to make conditions in the country that her citizens can go about their daily chores without fear. As it is, conditions in Pakistan are so bad that one can’t be hundred per certain that when he leaves for work, he will come back home safely in the evening. Taliban have made sure of that. Are you proposing that we take on the US and NATO because our stupid tribals insist on providing safe haven to the Taliban/ Al Qaida terrorists. Why these don’t so called freedom fighters remain their side of the border.

We have not been satisfied with 1971 defeat by India and are bent upon breaking up Pakistan by fighting NATO. Can’t you see that a war with US/Nato would result in India taking Azad Kashmir, Baluchis declaring independence and Sindhi nationalists forming Sindhu Desh?

I repeat my view posted earlier, no matter how unpalatable, only way forward is to eliminate all opposition against the State; whether Islamic, ethnic or linguistic, ruthlessly. Else the federation will be in danger of disintegration.

Well said sir; wish everybody was as much into realpolitik as you are.

Sir, I do have a question; why is it that these fundamentalists enjoy so much sympathy (this is different from active/passive support) amongst Pakistanis? Again this may be a false perception of mine; can you please clarify this.

With regard to the incident: either somebody got trigger-frustrated, somebody goofed-up or this is an instance of huge collateral damage. NATO would not kill PA soldiers. I may be wrong though.

 

[IceCold]

Re: Afghan Forces Kill 13 Pak FC's!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We will not do anything. We have become too coward and self centred, these incidents hardly make any difference. If they would have had, then we would have not sit idle when oridinary pakistanies got killed as a result of mis-information on the part of the US. Now they have started to attack our security personal. I dont see why this government would act any different this time. No they wont. The only thing that matters to us is to restore the corrupt judiciary, rest can all go to

Unquote.

Hon Members and Compatriots.

Let us analyse the situation.

Firstly from the side of the US/Nato:

Let us suppose that someone comes into your house; beats up the women folk and breaks a few windows. He then runs away and hides in your neighbours house. What would you do? The situation as Karzai govt and NATO sees it, is no different.

Now from Pakistan's side:

MMA and Islamists stance.

Pashtoons are our brothers and fellow Muslims and they are being wrongly done by NATO and the US. These are infidels; Afghan Pashtoons are fighting a jihad and we should do every thing we can to help.

Mush/PML-Q govt stance:

No foreign troops shall take action inside Pakistan territory and if any action is to be taken it will be by our own troops.

Current Govt/ANP policy:
Appeasing the extremist elements, in a way letting them get even stronger.

IMO, none of the above policy is correct. Unfortunately, it is not the court of law. MIGHT is right. Taliban/AlQaida/ Pakistani Islamic extremists are bent upon imposing their will by force. May this be in Afghanistan or inside Pakistan territory? They use whatever means they have at their disposal, including suicide bombing against soft targets at the time and place of their choice; whether it is against Nato/Afghan forces or against Pakistani forces as well Pakistani civilians.

US/Nato on the other hand, use their might against what they suspect is the hiding place of Taliban/Al Qaida, regardless of where it is even though it is across international boundary.

Trouble is, Pakistan has done the same thing against India and got away with it because we are strong enough to defend ourselves against Indians. Even then Musharraf was forced to declare "Pakistani soil will not be allowed to be used against our neighbours" a few years ago.

NATO is far stronger proposition. While NATO forces are finding it difficult to fight Taliban/ AlQaida guerrilla fighters. Against conventional troops their superior fire power will be very effective and PA wouldn’t do much better than Iraqi forces. The scenario prevented by Musharraf's ’U’ turn would come true.

What is to be done? Pakistan is a peaceful country and wants to live in peace with her neighbours. We had no territorial claim on any part of Afghanistan. We should therefore do all we can to avoid the fight between Taliban/Al Qaida and US/NATO into a fight between Pakistan and NATO. Can’t you see that it is the aim of MMA, Islamic extremists and Taliban to embroil Pakistan in their quarrel? So what if Pakistan is sent back to the middle ages! This is the aim of Taliban and their supporters any way, when they bomb girl’s schools, barber shops and video shops.

Now to answer the post quoted above.

We are unable to control Waziristan and Swat. If we take over Afghan Pashtoon areas, how you do suppose we would control the problem multiplied tenfold. We would be taken over by Taliban’s instead and ruled by warlords as in Somalia. Is that what you want??

Hon Iceman. It is not a question of cowardice. Sometimes it is better to run away to fight another day. It is a question of prudence.

Pakistan is a gift of Allah, but alas we don’t deserve it. Main objective of any government is to make conditions in the country that her citizens can go about their daily chores without fear. As it is, conditions in Pakistan are so bad that one can’t be hundred per certain that when he leaves for work, he will come back home safely in the evening. Taliban have made sure of that. Are you proposing that we take on the US and NATO because our stupid tribals insist on providing safe haven to the Taliban/ Al Qaida terrorists. Why these don’t so called freedom fighters remain their side of the border.

We have not been satisfied with 1971 defeat by India and are bent upon breaking up Pakistan by fighting NATO. Can’t you see that a war with US/Nato would result in India taking Azad Kashmir, Baluchis declaring independence and Sindhi nationalists forming Sindhu Desh?

I repeat my view posted earlier, no matter how unpalatable, only way forward is to eliminate all opposition against the State; whether Islamic, ethnic or linguistic, ruthlessly. Else the federation will be in danger of disintegration.

I'' answer to the last page part of your analysis Niaz sb since that is direct to me though you called me an Iceman, i dont know, was it an intended cheap shot or something else, however, i would like you to give me one example where such incidents happen anywhere in the world, a country openly violating your airspace, killing civilians in the name of fighting terrorism and AQ ( and i am in no manner against killing AQ). The point is we know that how miserably the US is losing battle in afghanistan and that frustration is been taken out on pakistan. Now i dont understand how could you jusity that? First civilians use to get killed, now they have taken a step forward and FC soliders have been killed, what next? Are you suggesting that even if they take out the nuclear installions one day, we should run away as it will be a good idea, since we cannot fight NATO.
pakistan has made it very clear that all action on their side of the border will be taken by PA, my point is that we need to make sure that US and NATO gets this otherwise we will keep losing valuable lives that both US and NATO doesnt give a 2 centt crap about and if we did not reacted, the oridinary people there who now consider pakistan as home land start wondering where is the PA when enemy attacks us. You should keep this scenario in mind as well what will happen if the feeling of being neglected increases within the hearts and minds of the people of FATA and other areas?

 

[Owais]

Pak Army protests deadly US-led coalition air strike
ISLAMABAD (updated on: June 11, 2008, 14:32 PST): Pakistan's army on Wednesday condemned a "completely unprovoked and cowardly" attack by US-led coalition forces in Afghanistan that killed 13 Pakistani soldiers on the border.

An army statement quoting an spokesman said a paramilitary checkpost in the Mohmad tribal agency was "destroyed by coalition forces in Afghanistan through aerial attack", killing 11 troops including an officer.

"The spokesman condemned this completely unprovoked and cowardly act on the FC (Frontier Corps) post and regretted the loss of precious lives of our soldiers," it said.

"A strong protest has been launched by the Pakistan army and we reserve the right to protect our citizens and soldiers against aggression."

 

[salman nedian]

Why does Russia need Gwadar when Central asia is their backyard and oil pipelines carry oil to Europe through existing land routes such as Ukraine.

Also Russia will not involve itself because

1. It has its hands already full with NATO's Eastern expansion and the mushrooming of pro westen governmnets in its backyard.

2. Millitants from Afghanistan had threatend the stability of central asia and had challenged Russias dominance in Central asian muslim states.

3. WOT will releive pressure from Russia on the Chechen front, Afghanistan used to be the primary recruitment ground for Chechen rebels. Now with their hands full fighting the NATO, Russia has found breathing space to consolidate its hold over Chechenya.

4. Today if NATO does not take contro of such radical elements, soon enough after America these elements will focus their attention on Russia. So the Russians are happy that US is doing their job for them.

5. After the previous invasion and debacle Russia will not thin of engaging Afghanistan physically, also they will be happy that US is pounding those who gave a hard nose to them.

Cheers

Russians must have some feeling in back of their mind that Indians backstabbed them by doing the nuclear deal with USA. They have the best chance to take the revenge of Afghan war.Afghanistan could be the end of US supremacy and Russia can balance the world again.

 

[muse]

Protest?? Impotent response, very disheartening to continuously promote weakness of Pakistan - if they cannot even help themselves, how they help others?

Why jets, ship and tanks and training men? And also cut defence budget and let enemy go unpunished. I like old PAKISTAN BETTER than this new Pakistan

 

[Mansoor A Qureshi]

This is pure humiliation nothing else, Why cant we retaliate and prove our point, the thing is we are a sold out nation nothing else, Dont know how to put an end to all this?
This is a never ending story,

Is ka ilaj QARAR-DAD-E-MUZAMAT say nahin "MURAMMAT" say ho ga

 

[muse]

While Pakistani blood flowed, the "democractic", "Elected", "Egalitarian", "People friendly", "Free", Indepdent" Premier of Pakistan was kow towing to a bunch of smelly Afghans:



Pakistan keen to promote ties with Afghanistan: Gilani F.P. Report

ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani Tuesday said a stable Afghanistan was in the best interest of Pakistan and for the peace in the region. The Prime Minister was talking to an eight-member delegation of Afghan parliamentarians led by Syed Hamid Gailani, First Deputy Speaker of Meshrano Jirga, the Upper House of Afghan Parliament at PM House.

The delegation is visiting Pakistan as part of the first parliamentary dialogue initiated between the two countries. The Prime Minister said Pakistan attaches high priority to its relations with Afghanistan and wants to strengthen the broadbased, close and cooperative relationship between the two countries. “Our ties are rooted in shared faith, culture, history and heritage, and Pakistan is keen to increase people to people contact between the two countries,” the Prime Minister said. He said parliamentary dialogue between the two countries augurs well for strengthening relationship between the two brotherly countries.

The Prime Minister said Pakistan believes that a holistic approach needs to be adopted to combat terrorism and extremism as it has been proved that force alone is not enough to deal with this menace. Pakistan, he said, wants to address the root cause of terrorism by accelerating the process of economic development and at the same time entering into a dialogue with the elements who joined the mainstream politics after laying down arms. He said Pakistan was conscious that a stable and economically growing Afghanistan will help facilitate the repatriation of over three million Afghan refugees who are residing in Pakistan. Pakistan wants they return in a phased, dignified and honourable manner to their homeland, he added. The Prime Minister said Pakistan was also keen to prevent illegal cross-border movement on the Pak-Afghan border and to achieve this objective has over 900 check posts all along the porous border. He expressed the hope that installation of biometric system will help prevent illegal movements across the border. The Prime Minister said visits of Pakistan’s Foreign Minister and Advisor to Prime Minister on Interior to Afghanistan within the last one week reflect the importance Pakistan attaches to its relationship with Afghanistan. He said President Hamid Karzai was the first leader to felicitate him on his election as the unanimously elected Prime Minister of the country.

Leader of Afghan delegation Syed Hamid Gailani said Afghanistan and Pakistan enjoy a unique and extraordinary relationship which will be preserved and promoted at all costs. He said that he was keenly looking forward to the Prime Minister’s address to the Afghan Parliament for which President Hamid Karzai invited him during their recent meeting in Sharm el Sheikh.

 

[Flintlock]

BBC Radio says that the Pakistani troops that were attacked might have been helping the Taliban.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Sooner or Later...

Pakistan has to decide which is the way to Future.... With ongoing Support for Taliban and US also in the same Ring.... Or we can put a can on the Talibans within Pakistan not to support other side Talibans for fighting against US led forces.

It is known to people who are involved that this was to happen one day!

Now what are our planners trying to cope with the US plans..... I would say our planners have failed and now we are the ones who will dance on the tunes played by US.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

BBC Radio says that the Pakistani troops that were attacked might have been helping the Taliban.

Sure - just like all those wedding parties, and village gatherings that were bombed by ISAF were "helping the Taliban".

The idiots probably shoot at anything wearing a Shalwar Kamiz (the FC uniform is shalwar kamiz - traditional dress, instead of regular army camo) and carrying a gun.

 

[niaz]

I'' answer to the last page part of your analysis Niaz sb since that is direct to me though you called me an Iceman, i dont know, was it an intended cheap shot or something else, however, i would like you to give me one example where such incidents happen anywhere in the world, a country openly violating your airspace, killing civilians in the name of fighting terrorism and AQ ( and i am in no manner against killing AQ). The point is we know that how miserably the US is losing battle in afghanistan and that frustration is been taken out on pakistan. Now i dont understand how could you jusity that? First civilians use to get killed, now they have taken a step forward and FC soliders have been killed, what next? Are you suggesting that even if they take out the nuclear installions one day, we should run away as it will be a good idea, since we cannot fight NATO.
pakistan has made it very clear that all action on their side of the border will be taken by PA, my point is that we need to make sure that US and NATO gets this otherwise we will keep losing valuable lives that both US and NATO doesnt give a 2 centt crap about and if we did not reacted, the oridinary people there who now consider pakistan as home land start wondering where is the PA when enemy attacks us. You should keep this scenario in mind as well what will happen if the feeling of being neglected increases within the hearts and minds of the people of FATA and other areas?

Hon Icecold,

Firstly let me offer an apology for calling you Iceman. It was unintentional. I was typing away as I was thinking, and the mistake happened. I would never knowingly insult any one and would respect their opinions no matter how disagreeable to me. I really am sorry.

Secondly, what you say is correct, in normal circumstances any aircraft would be shot down if it intruded into your territory. But there have been cases where friends have fired on each other and even sank vessels causing heavy casualties. For example, on May 17, 1987 an Iraqi Mirage F-1 attacked USS Stark, killing 37 and injuring 21. This was when US & Iraq were allies. Before that on June 8, 1967 Israel AF and Torpedo boats attacked US Liberty killing 34 and wounding 173, this is to date known as the Liberty incident. None of the above cases invited US retaliation. Would you call it cowardly?
What I am saying is that Taliban and Islamists deliberately want to pull Pakistan into their war. Correct policy is to protest strongly and use diplomatic channels and not oppose US/NATO until all diplomatic sources are exhausted. After all it is a fact that Taliban use FATA to regroup and attack inside Afghanistan. Official Pakistani channels have never denied this. We have maintained that when US/NATO with their resources have failed to check this, how can we with our meagre resources. To this effect US have provided PA with Cobra gunships. Please tell me why do our tribals play host to these terrorists in the first place? Many of these are not even Pashtoons but Arabs, Chechens, Uzbeks etc.

The same terrorists kidnapped Pakistan’s ambassador, this was inside Pak territory! And we were forced to release a well-known leader of terrorists Mullah Dadullah in exchange. Why there was no hue and cry against an innocent man on diplomatic mission being kidnapped? You cry blue murder against US why not against the same people who kidnap your diplomat and kill 30 odd army jawans at the training camp.

My views are very simple. What US did was very wrong but IMO these extremist deserve far worse than US or PA have dealt out to them. These people don’t give a fig for Pakistan or her citizens, they only want to impose their views on me and you by 'Force' and if you don’t agree they wont hesitate a second before killing you. I don’t agree with US action but I can understand why.

Only way for Pakistan is to get her own house in order. The way you suggest leads to nothing but disaster. Call me a coward if you like, but I am not willing to sacrifice my country for the sake of these cut throats, suicide bombers and killers of innocent Pakistani civilians, who exploit Islam for their nefarious ends. Just examine their Islamic beliefs against the Islamic practices during the time of our holy Prophet (PBUH). I saw a program wherein Taliban used Kabul football stadium to execute a burqa clad women accused of adultery by shooting her in the head. This is ultimate barbarism. If you would care to have Pakistan destroyed for their sake, it is your view and your are welcome to it.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

What is to be done? Pakistan is a peaceful country and wants to live in peace with her neighbours. We had no territorial claim on any part of Afghanistan. We should therefore do all we can to avoid the fight between Taliban/Al Qaida and US/NATO into a fight between Pakistan and NATO. Can’t you see that it is the aim of MMA, Islamic extremists and Taliban to embroil Pakistan in their quarrel? So what if Pakistan is sent back to the middle ages! This is the aim of Taliban and their supporters any way, when they bomb girl’s schools, barber shops and video shops.

Very well said Niaz sahib.

The response to this should be what it has been, one cannot abolish an alliance on the base of one incident, and without taking into account what the US/NATO explanation and response to this incident will be.