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NATO Attacks Pakistani Check-post

Otherwise one can get Saddamized (rhymes with an English term if you understand) in few days.

ohhhh goodness gracious, how colourful :lol::lol::lol:

Just remember these little lessons and please do not advocate that our jawans should follow $stupid tribal ways of firing AK-47 at gunships.

O putaar again what I wrote in simple words went from your eyes and out your exhaust hole....I told you I did not advocate anything, other than that indirect aerial firing; flares; etc. to warn not to intrude was and always is legit. Anything after that point depends purely on a circumstantial and case-by-case basis. When fired upon, returning fire is within your right --especially when you are in your own turf!

Even though I'm a tribal with stupid tribal ways (hell -- i guess you think i fire blindly from the hip at any piece of matter that moves), I did always enjoy the story about David & Goliath.




Haven't you learned anything from the fate of Mullahtic Khabasat Mullah umer of Islamist Jahannum of Afghanistan?

last i ever heard about him, he was on a motorbike

do you know where he is, or has he found a place somewhere in one of your history books?
 
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FYI! No one fires "warning shots" in "self-defense".

are you listening to yourself?



181148-triple_facepalm_super.jpg
 
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I am sure Sir that you have heard about the following:

--- No one should bring a knife to a gun fight (old adage)

--- No one should bring AK-47 to warn/fight a gunship (new version)

And if we still insist on forgetting about these golden rules, we'll put our Pak army / FC jawans in the harms way.

We must give them proper protection / defense before expecting them to shoot at or close to a thingy. And if we cannot, then picking up the phone call (soon to be replaced with fb and twitter :) ) is the next best thing to issue warnings and protests.

Mind you Sir!

This approach is based on simple yet cold hard military calculations to keep our jawans safe, and not at all derived from any kind of mad jingoistic nationalism.

Peace.

BTW, did our guys actually used AKs in response? i know posts usually have AAK AAK weapons at their disposal too?

Nevertheless, i'll make sure next time an aircraft enters our air space we'll make sure that we'll have the 'meatball' installed and a Landing Signal Officer to further guide the air craft, may be we should also make arrangements to guide air crafts to their final destination.

Off topic, but normally it is said that one should not fire at an approaching enemy aircraft because 1) It will reveal your position, 2) The aircraft may be going in for another mission (targeting deeper objectives etc) and if one would fire at it, it may also drop something on your head just as a token on love though you were not even on its menu. Also, the primary responsibility of our air defence views with the PAF, the AAD is their in supporting role. The overall air defence plan is coordinated by the PAF and the levels of engagement (guns free or not) normally comes from the very top. Now this holds guud for our eastern border, where both sides are not allowed to fly a military agreement anywhere near 10 km from the border as per the bilateral agreement, but we dont have any such arrangements with the ISAF. Their helis and other aircrafts normally wanders near the border and it becomes an issue only if they trespass the border. So there may be no air defence cover/umbrella in that area and the PAF may not feel worried if an aircraft is hovering near the border, but if it penetrates, well than keeping in mind the prevailing circumstances (drones, OBL killing etc), i think what the soldiers did was quite right if we keep in mind that we dont employ SAMs on our western border.

Though i do agree that a lesser communication gap between Pakistan and the US would go a long way in this case. But that's something the US is to ensure.
 
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What is there to test? The yanks seem to have already mastered getting in to and out of Pakistans air space with out being seen. They know that the first response to sighting an US aircraft seems to be shoot at it. Doesnt leave much to learn.

i'll only quote what i once said elsewhere:

"She was so innocent she thought bollocks were young cows"
 
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Major Xeric.

How dare you!

Which part of the word General and the three pips under my moniker you did not understand.

Report to me in PT Kit after games period, i am sure by the time i'll show you the 'armored corps nullah' in 2nd Pak Bn inside out, you'll be amply clear on our rank structure.
 
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So...a U.S. base comes under direct (small arms, recoiless rifles) and indirect fire (rockets, mortars) and we launch two Apaches. They may or may not have crossed into Pakistani airspace but twice take fire from a Pakistani military outpost.
Which is that base of yours that is so near the border that it's within the range of small arms fire? RRs?, mortars? hmmm...

General Campbell's comments elsewhere here suggest that fire was hardly warning shots-

"...We know for sure the [Apache] helicopter was fired upon -- we got rounds inside the helicopter," Campbell said. "The helicopter returned fire and we are working through just exactly what happened... If [American soldiers] are taking effective fire, then by all means they have to take all measures to safeguard themselves and the other people around there."
Ask Sir Campbell what he would have done if a Russian craft neared your borders and your outposts had no effective air defence cover?

You are yet not sure that if the Apaches were not inside our border.Next time i think we shoot down something and the wreckage would itself tell the story, right? Harping 'an ally', we support the people of Pakistan on one side and daring us on the other is not what sanity would ask you to do.
 
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i didnt bring this in deliberately, i know that even our Mi-17s have colored ones. Atleast the one i chootafayed in during flood relief ops had one.

Haan.. but you expect the pilots then to know if they are flying over the ravi or the Indus by looking at their map if need be.
idhar it seems like shoot away and ask questions later.

are you familiar with the USS Vicennes incident?.. the iran Airbus shoot down.. you probably were around since I was not born yet.
Same situation.. keep shooting... uncontrolled aggression.. and voila.. innocents dead.
 
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Haan.. but you expect the pilots then to know if they are flying over the ravi or the Indus by looking at their map if need be.
idhar it seems like shoot away and ask questions later.

are you familiar with the USS Vicennes incident?.. the iran Airbus shoot down.. you probably were around since I was not born yet.
Same situation.. keep shooting... uncontrolled aggression.. and voila.. innocents dead.


the caption of the ship was known to be overtly aggressive towards Iran and had in the past intruded into Iranian waters, seized and boarded Iranian ships and kept uncalled for hostile attitude towards them as if spoiling for a fight.

He got his chance when he was gifted with the most advanced Aegis cruiser at that time and decided to “confuse” Iranian Airbus ( flying over designated commercial route ) as an Iranian F-14 attacking American ships.

He was also known as robo-cruiser by the US navel officers. Americans paid compensation for that air tragedy.
 
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Haan.. but you expect the pilots then to know if they are flying over the ravi or the Indus by looking at their map if need be.
idhar it seems like shoot away and ask questions later.

are you familiar with the USS Vicennes incident?.. the iran Airbus shoot down.. you probably were around since I was not born yet.
Same situation.. keep shooting... uncontrolled aggression.. and voila.. innocents dead.

Yep.

As they say, with power comes responsibility, which the yanks surely lack!
 
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Odd how little Pakistanis care about their sovereignty when it comes to Afghan taliban fighters hiding behind Mama Pakistan's skirts. This skewed and selective sense of sovereign dignity is something that America has long since quit giving a ratz azz about.

Thanks.:usflag:

Hey Buddy
There is a difference between the two (NATO and Taliban I mean), I know that you know but let me repeat for everyone’s benefit.

Pakistan and USA are allies and on the same side of this War. We have not declared hostilities against each other. Since Afghan invasion, both of us have achieved a lot and we shouldn’t ignore it. (yes we can forget that, its fine because media keeps bombarding us with more stories and anything so “breaking news and important” is not that sensational in few weeks time). USA is a responsible country, a democratic country, its Military campaign had the UN backing and the backing of majority of the countries.

So we, your weaker, smaller, not so perfect Pakistani friends & allies expect a little better from yourself than the Taliban you are quoting. We cant blame them, they are the enemies but you are not OR are you?

What the NATO and Pakistani force commanders have to decide is how to tackle such incidents in the future? Should we help our common enemy by starting a pissing contest? Granted you guys are better, smarter more resourceful and morally superior than us but please do consider that we are also “STILL” on your side. well at least that’s what the Taliban also think and keep reminding us from time to time.

The place is not clearly defined, the enemy is devious, smart and would love to play us against each other. There is a strong chance that Taliban have either tried it already or have given it a thought to “kite” the perusing forces into the check posts of the other side, hoping to start an infighting due to the fog of war. Granted we would most likely end up getting hurt but really, is that the mission statement of the NATO forces? To humiliate and harm its ally? And then complain about the infiltrations? If that’s the case then why not drop the foreplay? Its been 10 years + already.

Lets be fair and honest. Press the “reset button” as suggested by Sen. Kerry and state the objectives in the region. Do you want to stay and establish your bases like in pacific? Or do you want to pack and go soon? We also have our issues, re Indian involvement in Balochistan sabotage activates and that greater Balochistan theme being mooted by some American think tanks. Then we got openly hostile Northern Alliance which is openly prejudiced against the majority Pashton Population in Afghanistan and Pakistan. So you see we both have some issues why not change them into opportunities? We know about huge copper deposits in Balochistan don’t we?

Lets talk business openly as friends shall we? And Use this Osama’s incident and the “treasure trove” of information you got from the Abbotabad compound to expose any ISI operatives complicit in aiding Taliban + Al Qaeda and let us know so that we can charge them with treason and execute them. And also why not tell the Afghan government & its “other guests” to stop funding BLA? And even TTP? You know that no armed movement can carry on an open armed campaign against a state without a sustained foreign help? We are allies aren’t we? When we find huge quantities of high quality explosives in Sawat that are not available in black market and then we find weapons that are Indian & even American (again in huge quantities) that makes us sad.
So lets take our feet off each others tails (together) and work towards improving communications and coordination in all anti terrorist operations near the borders. I know such incidents cant be completely prevented but we can limit their likelihood and limit the damage. We both have professional armies not South American drug cartels so lets not act like one.

What say you? Dude?
 
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Why can't Turkey can't speak up to NATO against frequent intrusions on Pakistan soil and our soldiers (injured, dying,etc), Turkey, NATO member, can't criticise it? Hyprocisy brotherhood...
 
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Why can't Turkey can't speak up to NATO against frequent intrusions on Pakistan soil and our soldiers (injured, dying,etc), Turkey, NATO member, can't criticise it? Hyprocisy brotherhood...

Turkey is part of nato mission in Afghanistan--they are mostly busy with non combat activities.

Brotherhood in international relations dont exist. Anybody who claims brotherhoos or friends forever, they are fooling themslves.
 
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damn, nato,china military must shoot down nato helicopters,if chinese targets are targetted. i think it's necessary and reasonable for pakistani military to open fire ,pakistani sovereignty shall be respected fully.
 
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Hey Buddy
There is a difference between the two (NATO and Taliban I mean), I know that you know but let me repeat for everyone’s benefit.

Pakistan and USA are allies and on the same side of this War. We have not declared hostilities against each other. Since Afghan invasion, both of us have achieved a lot and we shouldn’t ignore it. (yes we can forget that, its fine because media keeps bombarding us with more stories and anything so “breaking news and important” is not that sensational in few weeks time). USA is a responsible country, a democratic country, its Military campaign had the UN backing and the backing of majority of the countries.

this is one of the most boring Taqreer i have ever seen, i almost felt asleep until i saw "USA is a responsible county", :woot::woot:- i almost got a heart attack...:blah:
 
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