Naswaristan

[arp2041]

@Dillinger are you trying to say that we did cross LOC in some areas contrary to what is thought otherwise??

 

[Dillinger]

@Dillinger are you trying to say that we did cross LOC in some areas contrary to what is thought otherwise??

Guilty as charged! But we relinquished quite a bit of it under the ceasefire agreement, status quo power remember.

 

[Armstrong]

@Dillinger , from what I've read Pakistan controls 4 peaks namely Point 5353, Bunker Ridge, Saddle Ridge & Dalu Nag ! Barring the first one I don't know how significant or otherwise are the other 3 peaks.

I read something over here ( Fact and fiction on Point 5353 )

Amar Aul, the 56 Brigade Commander in charge of the operations to secure Point 5353, responded by occupying two heights on the Pakistani side of the LoC, 4875 and 4251, just before the ceasefire came into force.

Aul later tried to use these two heights to bring about a territorial exchange. In mid-August 1999, his efforts bore fruit, and both sides committed themselves to leave Points 5353, 5240, 4251 and 4875 unoccupied. Indian and Pakistani troops pulled back to their pre-Kargil position as part of a larger agreement between their respective DGMOs. In October that year, however, the deal broke down. Aul tasked the 16 Grenadiers to take Point 5240 and the 1/3 Gorkha Rifles to occupy Point 5353, choosing to vio late the August agreement rather than risk a Pakistani reoccupation of these positions. The operation was mishandled, and when the Pakistani troops detected the Indian presence on 5240, they promptly launched a counter-assault on Point 5353.

Pakistan rapidly consolidated its position on 5353 after the abortive Indian offensive. Concrete bunkers came up on the peak, and a road was constructed to the base of the peak of Benazir Post. And with Point 5353 and its adjoining area now linked by road to Pakistan's rear headquarters at Gultari, any attack will lead to a full-blown resumption of hostilities. No official from the Army or the Defence Ministry has, until the third week of September, denied this sequence of events.

I would imagine that if Pakistan has seen fit to consolidate her position of Point 5353 & India, appears to have tried to either take it through an assault ( The Hindu : National : Commander ordered capture of Point 5353 in Kargil war ) or occupied peaks on the Pakistani side of the LOC, there might be more than just passing importance of this feature in any Cost-Benefit-Analysis that was carried out.

I would think that if someone were to assert, as I've read elsewhere & even seen a pictorial representation as such, if the Objective of Operation Vijay was to evict Pakistani forces from Kargil so that the Highway isn't targeted as such. Then I would presume that Point 5353, though not enjoying the same vantage point as Tiger Hill, being, as I've read, the highest peak in the region overlooks enough of the Highway to direct very accurate artillery fire in case of a war it was decided to cut-off supplies once more, then one might be justified in asking whether all of the objectives or even the prime one was met or not ?

I'm not saying that Kargil was a victory or anything like that but we might have ended up with some nice real-estate that we could use in any future conflict. Otherwise it wouldn't make much sense for us to construct concrete hardened shelters there & a proper logistical route back to our nearest safe zone (base camp). Otherwise why consolidate your hold on a peak just like any other or more or less like any other unless it accrues some significant benefit to you - Perhaps facing saving, perhaps a bluff - I don't thinks so !

Khair, I don't know much about these things, if you wanna continue, I'd say @notorious_eagle would be the right man for the job !

Either way I'd favor intelligence operations, proxies, propaganda & above all brains to tackle India instead of any military-to-military engagement !

 

[Amaa'n]

It's the equipment mate. They are not "technically" armed. Besides, Lal Masjid and Kamra type ops were never meant to be their ares of interest. Special services is a different mind set, you can not deploy them everywhere.

Yara, you haven't seen equipment and special firepower yet....

So Counter Terrorism is not area of their responsiblities? mind it my focus is just on Counter Terrorism operations, not unconventional warfare, reconnaissance, or search and resuce types, because thats the area where they have been taking most casualities

 

[Dillinger]

@Dillinger , from what I've read Pakistan controls 4 peaks namely Point 5353, Bunker Ridge, Saddle Ridge & Dalu Nag ! Barring the first one I don't know how significant or otherwise are the other 3 peaks.

I read something over here ( Fact and fiction on Point 5353 )

Amar Aul, the 56 Brigade Commander in charge of the operations to secure Point 5353, responded by occupying two heights on the Pakistani side of the LoC, 4875 and 4251, just before the ceasefire came into force.

Aul later tried to use these two heights to bring about a territorial exchange. In mid-August 1999, his efforts bore fruit, and both sides committed themselves to leave Points 5353, 5240, 4251 and 4875 unoccupied. Indian and Pakistani troops pulled back to their pre-Kargil position as part of a larger agreement between their respective DGMOs. In October that year, however, the deal broke down. Aul tasked the 16 Grenadiers to take Point 5240 and the 1/3 Gorkha Rifles to occupy Point 5353, choosing to vio late the August agreement rather than risk a Pakistani reoccupation of these positions. The operation was mishandled, and when the Pakistani troops detected the Indian presence on 5240, they promptly launched a counter-assault on Point 5353.

Pakistan rapidly consolidated its position on 5353 after the abortive Indian offensive. Concrete bunkers came up on the peak, and a road was constructed to the base of the peak of Benazir Post. And with Point 5353 and its adjoining area now linked by road to Pakistan's rear headquarters at Gultari, any attack will lead to a full-blown resumption of hostilities. No official from the Army or the Defence Ministry has, until the third week of September, denied this sequence of events.

I would imagine that if Pakistan has seen fit to consolidate her position of Point 5353 & India, appears to have tried to either take it through an assault ( The Hindu : National : Commander ordered capture of Point 5353 in Kargil war ) or occupied peaks on the Pakistani side of the LOC, there might be more than just passing importance of this feature in any Cost-Benefit-Analysis that was charted out.

I would think that if someone were to assert, as I've read elsewhere & even seen a pictorial representation as such, if the Objective of Operation Vijay was to evict Pakistani forces from Kargil so that the Highway isn't targeted as such, then I would presume that Point 5353, though not enjoying the same vantage point as Tiger Hill, being, as I've read, the highest peak in the region overlooks enough of the Highway to direct very accurate artillery fire in case of a war it was decided to cut-off supplies once more, then one might be justified in asking whether all of the objectives or even the prime one was met or not ?

I'm not saying that Kargil was a victory or anything like that but we might have ended up with some nice real-estate that we could use in any future conflict. Otherwise it wouldn't make much sense for us to construct concrete hardened shelters there & a proper logistical route back to our nearest safe zone (base camp).

Khair, I don't much about these things, if you wanna continue, I'd say @notorious_eagle would be the right man for the job !

Either way I'd favor intelligence operations, proxies, propaganda & above all brains to tackle India instead of any military-to-military engagement !

Nope at the moment only point 5353 and 2 secondary features.

Yup I've read that article.

Yes Point 5353 is indeed worrisome- but not a loss of territory like losing areas up to Tiger Hill. The saving grace is that Point 5353 is surrounded- otherwise it would have caused grave consternation indeed.

Proxies, you are referring to terrorists yaara, either fight under your flag or not at all otherwise be prepared to have us fund proxies too. Pakistan may have the real estate dedicated to such camps- I even have the locations of 8 such installations which were accurate figures in 06 although probably not anymore but we have much more money to funnel in into proxies and can sustain them for far longer if we dabble in it as intently as Pakistan.

 

[arp2041]

@Armstrong Yes, Pt. 5353 is in control of PA & Yes, it directly overlooks the Srinagar-Leh Highway. But from what i have read, it is surrounded from Indian Position from 3 sides, so in normal circumstances we cannot expect a misadventure from PA.

 

[Dillinger]

@Armstrong the cost-benefit equation doesn't mean that we didn't try- BUT even on other peaks when our repeated assaults were beater back we rallied up again and attacked- here only two attempts were made without artillery support for the last one. You see the clear difference in commitment- its a fine balance between making an attempt to deny a possible advantage and a must achieve objective without which your ship sinks.

There were peaks which we could not take with a frontal assault and thus subjected them to lgb with the Mirage-2000s why do you think the same level of fire power was not deployed on 5353 and bunker ridge didn't get subjected similarly while the adjacent twin bumps did?

 

[Armstrong]

Nope at the moment only point 5353 and 2 secondary features.

Yup I've read that article.

Yes Point 5353 is indeed worrisome- but not a loss of territory like losing areas up to Tiger Hill. The saving grace is that Point 5353 is surrounded- otherwise it would have caused grave consternation indeed.

Well it is nearly a km into Indian territory but no matter, how can it be surrounded & still the Pakistan Army was able to build a road from it back to Pakistani side of the LOC & further consolidate our hold on it ! I'm sure if the Pakistan Army felt threatened of encirclement they wouldn't have gone through such a heavy investment & what appears to be a permanent presence over there; surely one of those encircling peaks would be to Point 5353, on a smaller scale, what Tiger Hill & to a lesser extent, Point 5353, is to the Highway & the areas further on which are supplied through it exclusively ?

Proxies, you are referring to terrorists yaara, either fight under your flag or not at all otherwise be prepared to have us fund proxies too. Pakistan may have the real estate dedicated to such camps- I even have the locations of 8 such installations which were accurate figures in 06 although probably not anymore but we have much more money to funnel in into proxies and can sustain them for far longer if we dabble in it as intently as Pakistan.

We maintain that you already do that; even some of our posters on PDF who've had military experience assert that ! As have recently retired Army personnel, I've had the good fortune, in talking to. Unfortunately you're not nearly as sloppy as we are & we're not nearly as good propagandists are you are so anecdotal or circumstantial evidence doesn't really stick.

@Armstrong Yes, Pt. 5353 is in control of PA & Yes, it directly overlooks the Srinagar-Leh Highway. But from what i have read, it is surrounded from Indian Position from 3 sides, so in normal circumstances we cannot expect a misadventure from PA.

From what I understand the significance of Point 5353 is in case of a tactical move as part of a larger engagement as was Kargil initially envisioned to be; brilliant tactical move but only had it been used as part of a larger war instead of situating the appraisal as our military leaders appeared to have done.

 

[Dillinger]

Well it is nearly a km into Indian territory but no matter, how can it be surrounded & still the Pakistan Army was able to build a road from it back to Pakistani side of the LOC & further consolidate our hold on it ! I'm sure if the Pakistan Army felt threatened of encirclement they wouldn't have gone through such a heavy investment & what appears to be a permanent presence over there; surely one of those encircling peaks would be to Point 5353, on a smaller scale, what Tiger Hill & to a lesser extent, Point 5353, is to the Highway & the areas further on which are supplied through it exclusively ?



We maintain that you already do that; even some of our posters on PDF who've had military experience assert that ! As have recently retired Army personnel, I've had the good fortune, in talking to. Unfortunately you're not nearly as sloppy as we are & we're not nearly as good propagandists are you are so anecdotal or circumstantial evidence doesn't really stick.

Yaara surrounded on three sides doesn't mean that you cannot build a supply channel and both armies have invested in various posts which would seem completely untenable positions to you and me. The terrain of the region dictates that point 5353 cannot be isolated and naturally- even before PA built a route, access to it from your side was easier. The point is that it is well covered.

Yet no Indian national infiltrated into Lahore and took part in killing a hundred civilians yaara.

 

[Armstrong]

@Armstrong the cost-benefit equation doesn't mean that we didn't try- BUT even on other peaks when our repeated assaults were beater back we rallied up again and attacked- here only two attempts were made without artillery support for the last one. You see the clear difference in commitment- its a fine balance between making an attempt to deny a possible advantage and a must achieve objective without which your ship sinks.

There were peaks which we could not take with a frontal assault and thus subjected them to lgb with the Mirage-2000s why do you think the same level of fire power was not deployed on 5353 and bunker ridge didn't get subjected similarly while the adjacent twin bumps did?

I don't know why they weren't subjected to the same brutal bombardment or assaults, it could have been because unlike the other peaks, these ones had their supply lines intact or it could have been that the Indian Planners didn't think them important enough - It could be anything !

What I don't understand, however, is how could a Peak, said to be the highest peak in the region, overlooking quite a few kms of the National Highway, be not crucially important. Whats worse why was the Pakistan Army allowed to consolidate their position so firmly there that now, it might be so, that even heavy bombardment may not be able to dislodge them from such a position. Surely '03 was the year in which the Ceasefire was signed, perhaps the Indian Planners could have directed the encircling peaks to continue routine bombardment of Point 5353 or its logistical supply line, as was norm in those days across the length & breadth of the LOC !

 

[Jango]

What the heck is this going on here....????

Serious discussion on Naswaristan?
@Hyperion, strict disciplinary action should be taken.

 

[Armstrong]

Yaara surrounded on three sides doesn't mean that you cannot build a supply channel and both armies have invested in various posts which would seem completely untenable positions to you and me. The terrain of the region dictates that point 5353 cannot be isolated and naturally- even before PA built a route, access to it from your side was easier. The point is that it is well covered.

Tou what would that actually achieve ? If the Supply Lines are intact, the position is consolidated with hardened shelters/bunkers & it sill enjoys a crucial vantage point - Tou how am I supposed to take that ? Measured restraint ? Not just worth it ? Benazir Post...ya whatever the nearest base camp is, can make the Highway redundant, if its true that Point 5353 can direct artillery fire & now, with the preparations, perhaps without worry about being bombed to nothingness !

Yet no Indian national infiltrated into Lahore and took part in killing a hundred civilians yaara.

No, as we maintain, they just funded every Baluch Militant Organization under the sun, into destabilizing Pakistan's largest & restive province by making Punjabis, Pukhtoons & the occasional Hazara as the targets of choice ! Khair, I wasn't referring to that kind of Intelligence Operations or using Proxies when I meant thats the way I'd do things if I were sitting in Kiyani's Chairs - I abhor civilian deaths even if its collateral; not a every dignified way to fight !

 

[Dillinger]

I don't know why they weren't subjected to the same brutal bombardment or assaults, it could have been because unlike the other peaks, these ones had their supply lines intact or it could have been that the Indian Planners didn't think them important enough - It could be anything !

What I don't understand, however, is how could a Peak, said to be the highest peak in the region, overlooking quite a few kms of the National Highway, be not crucially important. Whats worse why was the Pakistan Army allowed to consolidate their position so firmly there that now, it might be so, that even heavy bombardment may not be able to dislodge them from such a position. Surely '03 was the year in which the Ceasefire was signed, perhaps the Indian Planners could have directed the encircling peaks to continue routine bombardment of Point 5353 or its logistical supply line, as was norm in those days across the length & breadth of the LOC !

We faced attrition in Kargil, we had not wish to continue facing such attrition. The planners on our side, much to the criticism of many observers, simply did not see the importance of it. Height is not the only important feature here, its how tenable the position is which matters, a PA outpost on TH cannot be managed- one on 5353 can be taken out with concentrated fire in future conflicts- a fate that is shared by many posts on the LOC.

In fact the IA itself was pushing for a reverse-Kargil the moment they gained momentum in the later stages of the conflict- the GOI put its foot down and made it clear that it would not be a feasible plan in terms of the diplomatic blow back. Lets remember that as far as the world at large was concerned the conflict ended by 2000- after that if we had taken to heavy bombings it would have brought considerable pressure on us.

Tou what would that actually achieve ? If the Supply Lines are intact, the position is consolidated with hardened shelters/bunkers & it sill enjoys a crucial vantage point - Tou how am I supposed to take that ? Measured restraint ? Not just worth it ? Benazir Post...ya whatever the nearest base camp is, can make the Highway redundant, if its true that Point 5353 can direct artillery fire & now, with the preparations, perhaps without worry about being bombed to nothingness !



No, as we maintain, they just funded every Baluch Militant Organization under the sun, into destabilizing Pakistan's largest & restive province by making Punjabis, Pukhtoons & the occasional Hazara as the targets of choice ! Khair, I wasn't referring to that kind of Intelligence Operations or using Proxies when I meant thats the way I'd do things if I were sitting in Kiyani's Chairs - I abhor civilian deaths even if its collateral; not a every dignified way to fight !

yaara 5353 can be targeted but the cost is too prohibitive for just one feature. Any future conflict will not just revolve around that point, our way has always been to wait for Pakistan to lose patience and provoke us so that we can engage with all possible pretexts in our possession. That's how we fight- if say the PA were to make another move- perhaps take a few posts again then we would have the excuse we need for we would just be retaliating.

What would you rather have, one peek at the cost of your narrative or the position to propagate your own position unhindered- something that bleeds into and effects a country's diplomatic and economic clout too?

 

[arp2041]

@Dillinger your support is desperately needed in this thread pls:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/centra...p-largest-goon-party-india-3.html#post4080398

How idiotic one can get, the guy is saying that SP is lesser Goon party than BJP, can you beat that???

I had replied already to the desperate soul, not much left to say for me.

 

[Armstrong]

We faced attrition in Kargil, we had not wish to continue facing such attrition. The planners on our side, much to the criticism of many observers, simply did not see the importance of it. Height is not the only important feature here, its how tenable the position is which matters, a PA outpost on TH cannot be managed- one on 5353 can be taken out with concentrated fire in future conflicts- a fate that is shared by many posts on the LOC.

How exactly ? And what makes a post on TH difficult to neutralize by comparison ?

In fact the IA itself was pushing for a reverse-Kargil the moment they gained momentum in the later stages of the conflict- the GOI put its foot down and made it clear that it would not be a feasible plan in terms of the diplomatic blow back. Lets remember that as far as the world at large was concerned the conflict ended by 2000- after that if we had taken to heavy bombings it would have brought considerable pressure on us.

Something to substantiate that would be much appreciated !

yaara 5353 can be targeted but the cost is too prohibitive for just one feature. Any future conflict will not just revolve around that point, our way has always been to wait for Pakistan to lose patience and provoke us so that we can engage with all possible pretexts in our possession. That's how we fight- if say the PA were to make another move- perhaps take a few posts again then we would have the excuse we need for we would just be retaliating.

What would you rather have, one peek at the cost of your narrative or the position to propagate your own position unhindered- something that bleeds into and effects a country's diplomatic and economic clout too?

For all the rhetoric about prohibitive costs or public relationing, I still can't get past , what I think, would be fairly pertinent questions :

(i) Why would the Pakistan Army, continue to reinforce something thats as untenable or rather ill protected as Point 5353 seems to be that it could be blown away or seriously compromised in its use, by Indian posts that surround it ?

(ii) If, however, it cannot be as easily neutralized, now that the Pakistani positions have been consolidated manifold, I'm sure the Mirages would be accounted for in one way or the other as well, if they were a significant factor initially of course, and the Point under question has the ability to redirect artillery fire to choke the National Highway's intended destinations of supplies, in case of war, how would this feature be any less frightening than perhaps a slightly less advantageous Tiger Hill ?