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Myth shatterd "india won 65 war?"

Myth_buster_1

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What did you do in the war, daddy?
Dangers of military myths




The official history confirms another great failing of the 1965 war, the inability of the Indian Air Force to provide a decisive edge on the battlefield or even match up to the Pakistanis


In a society where even the writing of ancient history is so politically contentious, it is difficult to expect a realistic appreciation of fairly recent wars. Culturally, we also confuse military science with soldierly heroism. We can spend all our time extolling our troops for the courage they showed in Kargil but avoid talking about what got them in such a near-impossible war in the first place. Even with our bigger wars, propaganda myths created in the course of the engagements are then perpetuated for decades. In the 22-day war in 1965, for example, as schoolchildren we were taught that the Pakistani pilots were so scared of the tiny Gnat that they fled the moment they spotted one. That it was because the then army chief, General J.N. Chowdhary, was such a world-famous hot-shot in tank warfare that the Pakistani armour came unstuck at Khem Karan and other graveyards of the Patton. That Lahore and Sialkot were almost sure to be in our bag if the war had gone on a few more days.

That is why it is refreshing that India’s own official history of the country’s first full-fledged modern war has been written with a degree of detachment. It confirms several widely held beliefs in the strategic community and described in the many books on that war. In India, the official history has followed close after the release of In the Line of Duty: A Soldier Remembers, the autobiography of Lt Gen Harbakhsh Singh, one of our tallest generals ever, professionally and physically, at 6-ft-2. As the western army commander during the 1965 war (there was no northern command then), he also led the operations in Kashmir and therefore controlled the entire war.

His revelations, read with his earlier War Despatches and now authenticated by the official history, are devastating. It is, for example, now confirmed that not only did Gen Chowdhury play a very small role in the entire campaign, he was so nervous as to be on the verge of losing half of Punjab to Pakistan, including the city of Amritsar. Harbakhsh describes, in clinical detail, how our own offensive in the Lahore sector had come unhinged. The general commanding the division on Ichchogil canal fled in panic, leaving his jeep, its wireless running and the briefcase containing sensitive documents that were then routinely read on Radio Pakistan during the war. Singh wanted to court martial him, Chowdhury let him get away with resignation.

But a bigger disaster struck a bit to the south where the other division cracked up in assault, just as it encountered a bit of resistance. Several infantry battalions, short on battle inoculation, deserted and Singh gives a hair-raising account – and confirmation of a long-debated rumour – that Chowdhury panicked so badly he ordered him to withdraw to a new defensive line behind the Beas, thereby conceding half of Punjab to Pakistan. Singh describes the conversation with Chowdhury at Ambala where he refused to carry out the order, asking his chief to either put it down in writing or visit the front and take charge of the battle. Chowdhury waffled even on that panicky decision, Singh’s artillery and some rag-tag armour lured the Pattons into soggy ground on a moonlit night and the result was the greatest escape to victory in our post-Independence military history. What was to be a spectacular Pakistani breakthrough right up
to Panipat became a great rout of its armour.

The official history confirms not just this but also another great failing of that war, the inability of the Indian Air Force to not only provide a decisive edge on the battlefield but to even match up to the Pakistanis. It did not participate in any of the big battles. Many of its attacks were casual, half-hearted, even suicidal, as the decision of opening the campaign with four Vampires, one of history’s first jets, made of plywood, to block the Pakistani advance in Chhamb. All four were shot, and IAF opened the campaign with a 0-4 deficit. Then followed a bizarre story of no communication between the army and the air force. The army apparently thought it could sort out the Pakistanis by itself. The air force thought it was fighting a war exclusively with the PAF.

There was evidently too little communication between the army, air force and the political leadership. The IAF, for example, was told to stay back in the hangars in the eastern sector even when the PAF launched withering attacks on Kalaikunda and Bagdogra. Even after the disastrous Chhamb engagement, the IAF was so casual as to leave a whole bunch of frontline aircraft exposed at Pathankot, within minutes of flying time from PAF bases, and the result was another disaster in a raid at dusk. The Pakistanis seemed to have such a free run they even shot down the Dakota carrying the then chief minister of Gujarat, Balwant Rai Mehta, deep inside our territory, at night.

Many of us have read with great resentment and scepticism claims of writers like former PAF chief Air Marshall Asghar Khan (India-Pakistan War: The First Round) and British writer John Fricker who give Pakistan a TKO victory in the 1965 air war. Fricker, in particular, gave these claims international currency with his controversial article, ‘30 Seconds over Sargodha’, which described ‘‘how’’ a PAF pilot shot down four Indian Hunters in 30 seconds over the Sargodha airbase. These claims are highly inflated. But the fact remains that in 1965 the IAF failed to tilt the balance in any theatre of the war. Singh says the IAF was simply not prepared for war, physically or mentally. The IAF commanders from that period, including the then chief Arjan Singh, say the army never kept them in the loop. But the fact is that all of them, even the eastern and western command chiefs, were decorated after the war. There were no questions asked.

There weren’t any asked elsewhere either. Every single army general even remotely connected with the war effort was decorated, including the Strike Corps commander in the Sialkot sector who did not cover five miles in 15 days. Chowdhury himself was cast as some kind of a swadeshi Rommel, though he never got within shouting distance of the war. And even the then naval chief was decorated though his fleet remained firmly in harbour, failing to stir out even after the Pakistanis cockily pounded Dwarka.

The dangers in perpetuating mythologies built during a war into a kind of instant military history are obvious. It is impossible to first generously lionise and decorate people and to then hold them accountable for what they did wrong during a war. We obviously learnt some lessons from these in 1965 and the result was a decisive, premeditated campaign and victory in 1971. The key to that lightning campaign was total understanding between the army and the IAF. But if you look back on the way we once again rushed to hand out decorations post-Kargil and how closed we still are to the idea of finding out how on earth we let so many Pakistanis get so well entrenched on so much territory for so long, you wonder if the lessons of 1965 are so thoroughly forgotten that we are willing to make the same mistakes again.
 
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Its irrelevant if some officers were decorated, a war needs heroes and all countries do that.

whats relevant is that lessons were learned and improvements made.

Victory or loss in any war is in terms of the objectives, india achieved its objectives by protecting kashmir successfully.
 
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Its irrelevant if some officers were decorated, a war needs heroes and all countries do that.

whats relevant is that lessons were learned and improvements made.

Victory or loss in any war is in terms of the objectives, india achieved its objectives by protecting kashmir successfully.

what objectives did it achieve when Pakistan did not even fight this war over kashmir. even after 65 PAK still helped kashmiri freedom fighters and back in 65 india used this context to fight war with pakistan which they lost.
 
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what objectives did it achieve when Pakistan did not even fight this war over kashmir. even after 65 PAK still helped kashmiri freedom fighters and back in 65 india used this context to fight war with pakistan which they lost.

Pakistan lost the war as pakistan started operation gibralter with the aim of snatching indian state of jammu and kashmir, with hundreds of pakistani special forces dead or captured, the same was a failure, india faught with the objective of defending kashmir, and india succeeded.

The title of your thread is misleading, but from past experience, expected.
 
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what objectives did it achieve when Pakistan did not even fight this war over kashmir. even after 65 PAK still helped kashmiri freedom fighters and back in 65 india used this context to fight war with pakistan which they lost.

That is a vague excuse.. Then why did US your ally, cut the military supplies and aid?
 
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That is why it is refreshing that India’s own official history of the country’s first full-fledged modern war has been written with a degree of detachment.

The official history confirms not just this but also another great failing of that war, the inability of the Indian Air Force to not only provide a decisive edge on the battlefield but to even match up to the Pakistanis.

According to the article, the official History of the war in India says that Indian air force wasn't able to match the PAF. So what myth are you referring to? The myth that India was the aggressor and Pakistan won the war? Sorry but that myth is perpetuated in Pakistan, not India. We don't claim victory in the 65 war. We claim victory over decimating Pakistani plan of operation gibralter.
 
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Pakistan lost the war as pakistan started operation gibralter with the aim of snatching indian state of jammu and kashmir, with hundreds of pakistani special forces dead or captured, the same was a failure, india faught with the objective of defending kashmir, and india succeeded.

The title of your thread is misleading, but from past experience, expected.

India tried to invade in Lahore and Sialkot, with 600 tanks only for Lahore and they coudn't do anything coudnt capture an inch and u say invading lahore was defending kashmir? When they coudnt invade our territories then who is victorious !!!!!
 
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Pakistan lost the war as pakistan started operation gibralter with the aim of snatching indian state of jammu and kashmir, with hundreds of pakistani special forces dead or captured, the same was a failure, india faught with the objective of defending kashmir, and india succeeded.

The title of your thread is misleading, but from past experience, expected.

India tried to invade Lahore and Sialkot, does invading Lahore means defending Kashmir ???? The objective was to capture Pakistani territories which never happened so now U decide who won and who Lost!!!!

And one of the basic point where is light shed upon is, that the Indian texts are not reliable and the history taught is already mingled.

That is an vague excuse.. Then why did US your ally, cut the military supplies and aid?

US's objection was that Pakistan flew Sabre's over a Non-Communist country.

As i said earlier All your history material is mingled.

Even I read myself in my friend's brother's history text book(who is Indian and studies in an Indian school following CBSE) that Mohandas karamchand Gandhi was the most educated person in the whole subcontinent.

Maybe the text writer dint know about
1-Qaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah Lawyer & a Statesmen
2-Allama Mohammad Iqbal PhD. Philosophy and did scholarly works on Politics, economics, history and religion.
 
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India tried to invade in Lahore and Sialkot, with 600 tanks only for Lahore and they coudn't do anything coudnt capture an inch and u say invading lahore was defending kashmir? When they coudnt invade our territories then who is victorious !!!!!

And one of the basic point where is light shed upon is, that the Indian texts are not reliable and the history taught is already mingled.

You are showing complete inability to understand what are objectives and what are tactics. What was India going to do with Lahore? Nothing, just relieving pressure on kashmir.

And BTW, we DID capture pakistani land, an inch you say???



And lastly, if you think we are teaching nonsense to our kids, its good for you isn't it? if its true, then our generations will become stupid and deluded with ideas of glory, they will get entangled in never ending conspiracy theories and become a laughing matter and headache for the world. let us worry abt it, why do you worry? ;)
 
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India tried to invade Lahore and Sialkot, does invading Lahore means defending Kashmir ???? The objective was to capture Pakistani territories which never happened so now U decide who won and who Lost!!!!

And one of the basic point where is light shed upon is, that the Indian texts are not reliable and the history taught is already mingled.



US's objection was that Pakistan flew Sabre's over a Non-Communist country.

As i said earlier All your history material is mingled.

Even I read myself in my friend's brother's history text book(who is Indian and studies in an Indian school following CBSE) that Mohandas karamchand Gandhi was the most educated person in the whole subcontinent.

Maybe the text writer dint know about
1-Qaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah Lawyer & a Statesmen
2-Allama Mohammad Iqbal PhD. Philosophy and did scholarly works on Politics, economics, history and religion.

The article is from 2000, this was when BJP was idulging in some hisotiry re-writing and was being critised heavily for it.

The current NCERT history textbooks are quite objective. You can check them out here.
http://www.ncert.nic.in/textbooks/testing/Index.htm
 
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Pakistan lost the war as pakistan started operation gibralter with the aim of snatching indian state of jammu and kashmir, with hundreds of pakistani special forces dead or captured, the same was a failure, india faught with the objective of defending kashmir, and india succeeded.

The title of your thread is misleading, but from past experience, expected.

I thought Operation Gibraltar was a covert operation to spark an insurgency/rebellion in Kashmir, and not a conventional military assault to militarily take Kashmir.

If the former, then 'taking Kashmir' militarily was not the initial Pakistani objective. AFAIK, it was India that launched the first overt conventional military assaults across the ceasefire line in Kashmir, and then later opened another front on the International border when it came under severe pressure in Kashmir because of the Pakistani counterattack.

Given the above, your reasoning of why it was Pakistan that lost the war does not add up.
 
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And lastly, if you think we are teaching nonsense to our kids, its good for you isn't it? if its true, then our generations will become stupid and deluded with ideas of glory, they will get entangled in never ending conspiracy theories and become a laughing matter and headache for the world. let us worry abt it, why do you worry? ;)

The fact that you lot are teaching nonsense to your kids is pretty obvious with the poisoned and distorted views about Pakistan and history many of you display on this forum and across the web

Admit it already, like the author suggests, you were getting spanked in Kashmir despite being the initiators of the conventional war there, you then got your ***** spanked across the IB and barely managed to claw your way back, and you really got your ***** spanked in the air war.

Overall a disaster in terms of a conventional military campaign that you yourselves initiated, and yet you feed 'nonsense to your kids' that India won all three wars.
 
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