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Myth shatterd "india won 65 war?"

Because I have already mentioned that it 'extols' PAF. Because those scanned images are there for all to see. Didn't know you needed spoon feeding.
And still you couldn't resist capitalizing on it, one wonders, how the dummy suckers make it to this forum.
More importantly this thread is apparently about the war of 1965, where air war was just a part of it. If anybody is 'habitually picky and choosy' to 'float' one's 'boat', then it is you and your growling friend, who can't quite figure out what his own thread is all about. So confused is he, that he posted an analysis of 1971 air war in a thread that is supposed to discuss war of 1965.


Then again what more to expect from a congenitally confused nation.
Like most of your country fellows, you also need a knock on the head to remind you, it was one of your kind who habitually escaping an argument, couldn't resist digressing to the 1948, 1971 and Kargil conflicts, but then what could be expected from hooray Hardeeps, who sitting in a call center feel they are addressing the world.

It is irrelevant if Air Enthusiast had published IAF version a month earlier or after. That issue was not presented here. What is however relevant is the issue posted here and those scanned pages.

Nice attempt to raise a strawman. But that's all right for a nation high on 'Martial Race' branded jingo juice.
Well it's for us to know and you to merely brag about, talking of which why not make an effort and put your laughing gear to some use and prove your worth. Whatever the stakes buddy, we are not the title holders of sick man of Asia.
 
And still you couldn't resist capitalizing on it, one wonders, how the dummy suckers make it to this forum.
Well, your growler friend was so excited to get hold of those scans - just like a kid in a candy shop - that he made 3 successive posts with same images. Obviously, he missed the obvious and it needed to be stated to him. Adrenaline was oozing out of his ears and nose. Just corked those holes. That's all that there is to it.

As with the question 'how the dummy suckers make it to this forum'. Well since you have made it to this forum, you should know better than anyone.

Like most of your country fellows, you also need a knock on the head to remind you, it was one of your kind who habitually escaping an argument, couldn't resist digressing to the 1948, 1971 and Kargil conflicts, but then what could be expected from hooray Hardeeps, who sitting in a call center feel they are addressing the world.
The argument - that India had lost 1965 war - was defeated long time back, in the 1st two pages only. Your insistence on isolating one aspect of the war from the rest of it, so that you can claim a victory, beat your chest, light a bonfire and then dance around it to your armpit music, led to that few pages of useless verbal duel. All of that, and this, could have been avoided if you, 'like most of your country fellows', were not born with a delusion of grandeur, which needs to be constantly fed by manufactured myth.

But then again that's what we expect from average Abduls, who think his 'moth eaten' country is the center of universe.

Well it's for us to know and you to merely brag about, talking of which why not make an effort and put your laughing gear to some use and prove your worth. Whatever the stakes buddy, we are not the title holders of sick man of Asia.
But you do hold some coveted titles, like 'migraine' or 'epicenter of something something'. No wonder, denial is hardwired to your brain circuit.
 
Well, your growler friend was so excited to get hold of those scans - just like a kid in a candy shop - that he made 3 successive posts with same images. Obviously, he missed the obvious and it needed to be stated to him. Adrenaline was oozing out of his ears and nose. Just corked those holes. That's all that there is to it.

As with the question 'how the dummy suckers make it to this forum'. Well since you have made it to this forum, you should know better than anyone.
An Indian talking about filling holes, the harvest must have been good, and let me remind you this is a Pakistani forum, even derelict minds like you should be thankful that you have priveledge to open your cake hole some where.
The argument - that India had lost 1965 war - was defeated long time back, in the 1st two pages only. Your insistence on isolating one aspect of the war from the rest of it, so that you can claim a victory, beat your chest, light a bonfire and then dance around it to your armpit music, led to that few pages of useless verbal duel. All of that, and this, could have been avoided if you, 'like most of your country fellows', were not born with a delusion of grandeur, which needs to be constantly fed by manufactured myth.

But then again that's what we expect from average Abduls, who think his 'moth eaten' country is the center of universe.
Whatever the argument, should have done away with the invitation, but then people sinking in their own excrement wouldn't know any better than to ooze with the same. Damn, India shinning seems to have been endorsed with a few other letters. What the hell, the world can smell where the poor man's super power rots.

But you do hold some coveted titles, like 'migraine' or 'epicenter of something something'. No wonder, denial is hardwired to your brain circuit.
The same person can't seem to shed enough praise on Pakistan, or is that just to sell his book, well what do you expect from any low life Laxman, drop a Rupee, and get a Toe job.
 
An Indian talking about filling holes, the harvest must have been good, and let me remind you this is a Pakistani forum, even derelict minds like you should be thankful that you have priveledge to open your cake hole some where.

Whatever the argument, should have done away with the invitation, but then people sinking in their own excrement wouldn't know any better than to ooze with the same. Damn, India shinning seems to have been endorsed with a few other letters. What the hell, the world can smell where the poor man's super power rots.


The same person can't seem to shed enough praise on Pakistan, or is that just to sell his book, well what do you expect from any low life Laxman, drop a Rupee, and get a Toe job.
:lol:

I understand, your temporal lobe can't process anything above the sound of 'how awesome I am at brain farting'. So I will leave you at your ritualistic self-pleasuring.

Give me a nudge when you are spent.

ta :wave:
 
:lol:

I understand, your temporal lobe can't process anything above the sound of 'how awesome I am at brain farting'. So I will leave you at your ritualistic self-pleasuring.

Give me a nudge when you are spent.

ta :wave:

I'll make it simple for you,
Teach your backside to talk, you may even enjoy the sound.
The world smells different to what you thrive in, you should get out more. you may even survive the fresh air.
 
Today, over a hundred and fifty million Pakistanis celebrate the 42nd Defense of Pakistan Day. It was 6th of September 1965 when Pakistan’s armed forces faced off against India’s in the first full-scale war between the two countries. Much to the credit of the brave men (and women) in uniform that day–and for next 2-3 weeks following that–the enemy attack on the City of Lahore was repulsed and the General J. N. Chaudhary’s dream of having his drink at Lahore Gymkhana on the evening of September the 6th was squashed.



Tomorrow, the country celebrates the Airforce Day to pay tribute to the defenders of the country’s air space. PAF’s performance during the 1965 War was truly remarkable given the comparative state of balance between the two airforces. It managed to shoot down 110 of India’s aircrafts while itself incurring the loss of only 18 of its own. Not only did PAF establish itself as a qualitatively superior airforce in the 1965 War but also established its credentials as one of the best airforces of the world.

While much has been written, by official and unofficial quarters, on the history of the 1965 War and a lot more continues to be written every year, there are several gross misconceptions about this event in Pakistan’s history that need to be tackled with and addressed. In Pakistan, ever since (or soon after) its creation in 1947, the writing of history has been an almost exclusive domain of the establishment whereby an official “doctrine” or “mythology” is often disseminated to ensure a homogeneity of thought and conformity of actions.

Noted historian, K. K. Aziz, in his “Murder of History: A Critique of History Textbooks Used in Pakistan” (1998) notes that:

“In Pakistani schools and colleges what is being taught as history is really national mythology, and the subjects of Social Studies and Pakistan Studies are nothing but vehicles of political indoctrination. Our children don’t learn history. They are ordered to read a carefully selected collection of falsehoods, fairy tales and plain lies.”


The myth and mystery around the 1965 War is no exception. One would not be surprised that a normal–perhaps even average college educated–Pakistani believes–or is led to believe–that on Sept 6th 1965, India invaded Pakistan (specifically Lahore) and that once thrust into this battle, Pakistan came out to be victorious over its archrival. Both of these facts, on close examination, are quite far from reality. True, India did attack Lahore on September 6th 1965, but it was not the one to force a war on Pakistan in the first place. It was Pakistan’s provocation in the form of Operation Gibralter that led India towards opening the Western front in Pakistan.

It is also true that by the end of the 3rd week of war, both countries had found themselves in a virtual military stalemate. While Pakistan’s armed forces had successfully defended Lahore–thanks, primarily to men like Raja Aziz Bhatti who, despite the failure of leadership at the top-most levels, gave up their lives but not inch of the country’s territory, but also due to the strategic position of the BRB Canal that formed a natural defense for Lahore–all of Pakistan’s offensive maneuvers had come to a naught.

The Operation Gibralter that began in May-June of 1965 to take Indian territory in Kashmir and create an insurgency and popular uprising in the region was frustrated. This launched Operation Grand Slam that was aimed at cutting the Jammu-Rajouri road at Akhnur and to ultimately capture the latter. This operation was unnecessary delayed because of a change in top-military commander–a change widely perceived as unwarranted at that time. Despite these delays, however, as Pakistani troops gained some territory, India launched a full-scale offensive aimed at Lahore (0530 hrs on the 6th) and Sialkot (night between 7th and 8th). The rest as they say is history.

In the ground war itself, there was a military stalemate on virtually all, northern (Kashmir), central ( Lahore), and southern, axes. At the time of the ceasefire, India held 450 square miles of Pakistan’s territory and Pakistan held 1600 square miles of Indian territory. General K. M. Arif, in his book Khaki Shadows, though, highlights that the Indian land gains were mainly in the fertile Sialkot and Kashmir sectors while Pakistani land gains were primarily in deserts opposite Sindh. While Pakistan came out with better numbers in terms of casualties (dead, injured, and missing) and equipment losses, it hardly was victorious as is often claimed by the establishment. Unless you define victory as being able to defend oneself during an offensive operation — hardly a definition indeed.

Apart from the unfortunate myth about who actually started the war itself, another factor that has received much less attention, and for obvious reasons, is why it was started in the first place. At the time of the 1965 War, Pakistan did not really have a full-time Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces. General Ayub Khan was, at best, a part-time military commander, as he was too engaged in political affairs of the country. He had chosen General Musa Khan as his full-time Chief of Army Staff but only on the basis of his loyalty to the former rather than merit, competency or professionalism. This lack of leadership and competency at the highest levels of Pakistan’s military during the 1965 became legendary and is well-documented.

This was also something that was consequently taken advantage of by none other that Foreign Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. Bhutto was, at the time of the 1965 war, at the peak of his power as Ayub’s foreign minister and a foreign policy hawk, par excellence. He single handedly molded the opinion of the foreign office and his friends at the GHQ to plan operation Gibralter. Ayub was informed about the plans but only to an extent.

Most importantly, Bhutto and his colleagues at the GHQ were able to dupe everyone who mattered into believing that capturing Kashmir was in sight, that an insurgency would immediately create an uprising, and that India would never declare full-scale war on Pakistan. Ayub’s indifference to this whole affair can be estimated from the fact that the Supreme Commander was vacationing in Swat during the last week of August 1965 when Pakistani troops were dying in Kashmir.

Each one of the above assumptions was grossly incorrect and both Ayub and Pakistan paid a heavy price for it. For his part, Bhutto was able to walk away from his created mess and managed to turn the tide against Ayub and actually benefit from the situation. The 1965 War was the turning point of Ayub’s career at the helm. Bhutto rode this wave of dissatisfaction with the war as well as the Tashkent Agreement to power in 1970.

Setting the record straight on what the 1965 War was all about, who started it, and why did it get started is not only a important constitutional right of Pakistani citizens but also is critical to learning from our own mistakes. Unfortunately, that is something that Pakistan has never been good at. General K. M. Arif in Khaki Shadows writes that in the immediate aftermath of the 1965 War “Pakistan suffered a loss of a different kind…Soon after the War the GHQ ordered all the formations and units of the Pakistan Army to destroy their respective war diaries and submit completed reports to this effect by a given date. This was done?Their [the war diaries'] destruction, a self-inflicted injury and an irreparable national loss, was intellectual suicide.”

Clearly, the political-military nexus had an interest in ensuring that nobody should find out what actually happened during the 1965 War — the former because of its incompetence and lack of leadership and the latter because of its culpability in taking Pakistan to war. While considerable second-hand material has become available since then, first hand information and accounts of the war remain a national secret whose disseminator could be charged under the Official Secrets Act. The organizational and legal paraphernalia to ensure that nobody ever learns from this tragic event in Pakistan’s history is complete and foolproof.

What could have happened differently if Pakistanis had actually learnt from what happened before, during, and after the 1965 War?

One, Mr. Bhutto would probably have found it difficult to ride the wave of anti-Ayub discontent as easily as he did for he was equally, if not more, culpable for what was solely blamed on Ayub Khan.

Two, Mr. Bhutto would not have found it as easy to continue to befriend army generals and exercise the kind of influence at GHQ that he did during the 1971 debacle. Perhaps Pakistan would have been intact.

Three, the army leadership would have received its fair share of blame for its professional incompetence, and preoccupation with civilian and political affairs at the expense of their military duty.

Four, Perhaps Pakistan would have learnt its lessons and Kargil-II (1965 War was, in fact, Operation Kargil-I) would not have happened. Consequently, Sharif government would not have been toppled and Musharraf would have been living a retired existence for the last 5 years.

The chain of causalities run fairly deep and dense in Pakistan’s history. Our inability and unwillingness to learn from our own mistakes merely reinforces these events and brings us closer to a new–and more challenging–disaster every time. The 1965 War should be remembered as a day of courage and sacrifice of Pakistani people–most notably our men and women in uniform–who were wronged by their civilian and military leaders, but more importantly it should be remembered as a missed opportunity to learn and improve our lot. That is the test we continue to fail each year.

http://pakistaniat.com/2007/09/06/1965-war-a-different-legacy/comment-page-6/

So here is article of Myth busting... A lots of myth are busted here.. good article to read..
 
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Some myths were more obvious than others. such as this one.


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The IAF Gnat wasn't the first to surrender , in fact , this Ouragan was forced down earlier.

128b6689309a5273cd108ac7ecb18770.jpg
 

There have been only a few neutral assessments of the damages of the war. In the opinion of GlobalSecurity.org, "The losses were relatively heavy ? on the Pakistani side, twenty aircraft, 200 tanks, and 3,800 troops. Pakistan's army had been able to withstand Indian pressure, but a continuation of the fighting would only have led to further losses and ultimate defeat for Pakistan."
 

There have been only a few neutral assessments of the damages of the war. In the opinion of GlobalSecurity.org, "The losses were relatively heavy ? on the Pakistani side, twenty aircraft, 200 tanks, and 3,800 troops. Pakistan's army had been able to withstand Indian pressure, but a continuation of the fighting would only have led to further losses and ultimate defeat for Pakistan."
Before rejoicing on any figures, one should keep in mind the battle inventory, specially from Pakistan side, as all equipment was American orientated, hence it would be impossible to hide or cover any major equipment loss. Secondly which country pursued the ceasefire which ultimately became known as Tashkent agreement. As for long term battles, it's said Germany was close to making an atom bomb during the second war, but the question remains eternal, what, if, where and when. You learn from your history, implement it in present and prepare for the future.
 
Before rejoicing on any figures, one should keep in mind the battle inventory, specially from Pakistan side, as all equipment was American orientated, hence it would be impossible to hide or cover any major equipment loss. Secondly which country pursued the ceasefire which ultimately became known as Tashkent agreement. As for long term battles, it's said Germany was close to making an atom bomb during the second war, but the question remains eternal, what, if, where and when. You learn from your history, implement it in present and prepare for the future.

Its not about me rejoicing any number. War is all about being in a position of strength.

No one expected to grab Lahore and Islamabad as a result of this war. The most favorable result of India was thwart pakistans effort to grab land in Kashmir, and be in a position of advantage when the super bosses join the party for mediation and exactly thats what India achieved..

Add to that the political instability after the war on pakistan , It took your country decade back. Your achievement a false myth of superiority and a political legacy which resulted 1971.
 
Before rejoicing on any figures, one should keep in mind the battle inventory, specially from Pakistan side, as all equipment was American orientated, hence it would be impossible to hide or cover any major equipment loss. Secondly which country pursued the ceasefire which ultimately became known as Tashkent agreement. As for long term battles, it's said Germany was close to making an atom bomb during the second war, but the question remains eternal, what, if, where and when. You learn from your history, implement it in present and prepare for the future.

right its tough to predict what didnt happen. But this is not my assesment its some 3rd party assesment based on some data and yes you have to learn from past so that you dont complain about Lost opportunity in future.
 
Its not about me rejoicing any number. War is all about being in a position of strength.

No one expected to grab Lahore and Islamabad as a result of this war. The most favorable result of India was thwart pakistans effort to grab land in Kashmir, and be in a position of advantage when the super bosses join the party for mediation and exactly thats what India achieved..

Add to that the political instability after the war on pakistan , It took your country decade back. Your achievement a false myth of superiority and a political legacy which resulted 1971.
Well the break down wasn't there to fill any gaps,
Contrary to your claim, the Indian army chief had sent invitations to all his Commanders to join him in a victory toast at the Lahore Gymkhana Club, as a pre victory celebration, some Lahore bus was paraded around Delhi. No such party was organised by any of our Generals. The Saviours didn't exactly gate crashed rather they only answered after Shastri's humble requests. Due to this superior performance, America imposed sanctions albeit on both but they hit Pakistan more severely. And don't buy your argument by associating 65 with the 71 war, conspiracy theories wrapped in clouds of war should leave a bitter taste in any mouth that speaks moral.
 
right its tough to predict what didnt happen. But this is not my assesment its some 3rd party assesment based on some data and yes you have to learn from past so that you dont complain about Lost opportunity in future.

There is always a third party of one's choice.
The tragedy is some never learn from past, hence they have to be reminded or even taught a lesson or two.
 
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