What's new

Myth and reality in India-China relations

EjazR

SENIOR MEMBER
Joined
May 3, 2009
Messages
5,148
Reaction score
1
The Hindu : Opinion / Lead : Myth and reality in India-China relations

India and China are neighbours — each with a billion-plus population, together accounting for 38 per cent of the world’s population, with the fastest GDP growth rates for large economies, with China already (in PPP terms) the world’s second largest economy and India set to become the third largest in the intermediate future. How the two big neighbours bond together in the future is crucial for global order. Further, how they interact with the United States will determine the international trends of the foreseeable future.

For at least two millennia, and until about 300 years ago, these two countries were considered by the then prevailing criteria as the most developed in the world, accounting for about 50 per cent of the world’s GDP. However, owing to similar experiences with foreign aggression, imperialism, and internal orthodoxy, India and China underwent a two-century long decline whereby by the mid-20th century, they became the world’s poorest nations.

Despite being neighbours and having flourishing economies over centuries, the two nations until 1962 neither ever went to war, nor took advantage of local civil wars. This is a most extraordinary and unparalleled experience of neighbourly peace in world civilisational history. Contrast this with what happened in Europe, West Asia, and North Africa.

The two peoples traded goods, exchanged visitors, borrowed ideas, and generally respected each other at the ruler and ruled levels — until foreign invasions and imperialism cut off normal interactions and relations became frozen. They were revived only in 1950, but fizzled out by 1959. War followed in 1962, for the first time in millennia.

It took a lot of effort thereafter to restore some modicum of good relations, in which this writer, with the encouragement of the Sankaracharya of Kanchi Mutt, Sri Chandrashekharendra Saraswati, played some shaping role.

When the Janata Party government came to power in 1977, Prime Minister Morarji Desai asked me to go to China to explore the situation and see if normalisation of relations would be possible. He chose me to go first, despite peer jealousies and objections in the party, because I knew Mandarin, had researched and taught courses (at Harvard) on China, and also because, as Morarji told me, I viewed China, “without wearing rose-tinted glasses.”

My initiative in September 1978 produced enough of a thaw for Morarjibhai to clear the way for External Affairs Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee to make a trip in February 1979, the first by any Indian Minister since 1960. But the outcome of the visit was, alas, scuttled by mishandling the fallout of the Sino-Vietnam war that was launched when he was there, and Mr. Vajpayee had to cut short his stay in China.

In 1981, Prime Minister Indira Gandhi sent my good friend and External Affairs Minister, P.V. Narasimha Rao, to request me to visit China again, and in a back-channel format obtain some clarifications about China’s attitude to the re-opening of relations with India, as also its intentions about some extremist leaders of the All Assam Students Union (AASU) who were planning to visit China clandestinely to obtain weapons.

In April 1981, I did visit Beijing and was received by Deng Xiaoping. It was during that meeting that he announced that Foreign Minister Huang Hua would go to India, and that China was open to a negotiated settlement on the Sino-Indian border dispute.

Border delineation discussions began thereafter and are still continuing on preliminaries! Deng Xiaoping conceded my demand, then pending for three years, for re-opening the Kailash-Manasarovar route in Tibet but only for Hindu pilgrims (China’s condition). I led the first delegation of 20 pilgrims in the freezing cold weather of September 1981, and since then Hindu pilgrims in batches have continued to go to Kailash-Manasarovar without any hitch till today.

In December 1988, Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi finally cut the Gordian knot in his wide-ranging talks with Deng Xiaoping by declaring that the Sino-Indian border was, in parts undemarcated and in parts disputed, thereby putting on hold (although not undoing) the consequences of the 1962 Parliament Resolution. Undoing, however, can be done only by a new Resolution in Parliament for which the time will come if there is a satisfactory end to the border dispute.

After this landmark visit, Prime Ministers Narasimha Rao and Deve Gowda contributed by signing agreements for various confidence-building measures. In 2003, as Prime Minister, Mr. Vajpayee visited China and reiterated India’s commitment to regarding Tibet as an inalienable part of China.

That commitment had already been made by Jawaharlal Nehru, and formalised in a treaty in 1954. Was the reiteration to build further confidence in the relations? I am not sure since I have not been able yet to fathom it. But Prime Minister Vajpayee’s reiteration means now (his then Cabinet Minister Arun Shourie’s recent polemics notwithstanding) that in India there is bilateral political commitment to regard Tibet as a part of China. It would require an audacious break with the past or an extraordinary paradigm-changing event to alter that reality.

Since 2007, relations between India and China have begun to cool. Outside government, but in the penumbra of officialdom, there is now a developing hysteria about our heading for war with China, or more precisely, about China planning to attack India. This hysteria mystery needs to be unravelled because neither can we be complacent about China’s capacity to inflict damage on us, nor should we have a fevered imagination about China’s alleged evil intentions to harm us.

Both dimensions of our attitude to China are dangerous. As a China watcher of long standing, I am curious about how this huge bilateral consensus, built over three decades, on the desirability or possibility of good relations with China, is weakening so fast. Who are the catalysts in this, what are the dynamics behind this change of this attitude, and how will it end? Is this projected Chinese threat real or just a myth?

We need to separate the myths and realities in our relations with China. Some myths are frightening and need to be exploded. Some realities are potentially so dangerous that we can ignore them only at our peril.

The most frightening myth in currency today is that China and Pakistan will co-ordinate an invasion of India, and balkanise the nation, or at least destroy our economy. This is expected no later than 2012, as precise as that! This we are hearing in some think tanks of Delhi populated by former officials of the government.

This mythical scenario is bogus because, first, China and the rest of the world learnt by the events of 1962, and by subsequent unconnected events, that if anything, the Indian people unite and India nationally consolidates when attacked from abroad. This Chanakya had noted as the concept of Chakravartin. Secondly, with Tibet and Sinkiang simmering, attacking India is not a one-way street or a picnic. On our borders and contiguous areas, moreover, the Indian Air Force is far superior while the terrain on our side of the border provides a much shorter and friendlier supply chain. China’s is very long and through more hostile terrain. Invasion therefore cannot be in the mind of the rational Chinese strategist. Most of these inflamed reports and the surrounding hysteria in India is because the propagators have been brought up on the British Imperialist version of our history, which is that India is a sitting duck for anyone who wants to invade the country.

The most potentially dangerous reality of the Sino-Indian relation today is India’s abdication of vital national interests for the domestic political survival of ruling coalitions. To counter China, some in India are advocating strategic bonding with the U.S. This is not in our national interest because the U.S. will then make us another Australia or Japan, a concubine, so to speak. The bottom line in U.S.-China relations at present is that China has a veto over U.S. actions in South Asia. Unless we can change that bottom line, the U.S. partnership is not going to mitigate our hysteria about China. In the meantime, China has us ringed in like a circus lion. It does not need to invade us when we are in such a state of impotence.

Shorn of the myths, the realistic and appropriate policy course for India is to match Chinese military capacity by concrete action (for example, spending 7 per cent of GDP on defence) and be conciliatory in policy, attitude, and words. Or to put it bluntly, take full care of national security but work for peace and good neighbourliness. At present we are doing precisely the opposite.

(The author is a Harvard-trained economist and China scholar and has made significant contributions to promoting India-China relations since 1978. He is a former Union Law Minister.)
 
.
The Hindu : Opinion / Lead : Myth and reality in India-China relations

India and China are neighbours — each with a billion-plus population, together accounting for 38 per cent of the world’s population, with the fastest GDP growth rates for large economies, with China already (in PPP terms) the world’s second largest economy and India set to become the third largest in the intermediate future. How the two big neighbours bond together in the future is crucial for global order. Further, how they interact with the United States will determine the international trends of the foreseeable future.


Nice, something senseible after all the war hoopla cooked up by the media. No need to go to war with anybody, lets have peace and enjoy the benefits of it.
 
.
...
As a China watcher of long standing, I am curious about how this huge bilateral consensus, built over three decades, on the desirability or possibility of good relations with China, is weakening so fast. Who are the catalysts in this, what are the dynamics behind this change of this attitude, and how will it end? Is this projected Chinese threat real or just a myth?

Some clues to the author.

In a democratic system, sensation making is a key to catch attention and spot-lights. Officials are normally having less responsibility, as their terms are limited. Today, they can say we recognize Tibet is your integral part. Next day they can easily say Tibet is not your integral part, because previous government was wrong.

In an authoritarian system, this type of behavior will seriously damage the credit and reputation of the government. They have to stick with their principles. A typical example is that Mao was a figure many generations before, but current Chinese government is still bearing the burden of his bad activities.

Thus, a good authoritarian system is trustworthier than normal democratic system due to system constraints.

The most potentially dangerous reality of the Sino-Indian relation today is India’s abdication of vital national interests for the domestic political survival of ruling coalitions.

Rightly said!

That's precisely the evil part of democracy.

American founders had foreseen these dangers. They called it majority tyranny or democracy faction.

Unfortunately, we see only some goodies due to democracy practice in India, but too many evil things of democracy.

the realistic and appropriate policy course for India is to match Chinese military capacity by concrete action (for example, spending 7 per cent of GDP on defence) and be conciliatory in policy, attitude, and words.

Not quite right.

Impotent India lies in the fact that its vast mass is impotent. It is not that it is not militarily formidable enough. If India does not fix the condemned next generation, if India leaves its national hope and future in malnutrition and brain-damaged, (see India's damned generation: young go hungry despite economic boom - Times Online ) India will remain impotent.

India needs to overhaul its democratic system. Believe me.
 
.
Some clues to the author.

In a democratic system, sensation making is a key to catch attention and spot-lights. Officials are normally having less responsibility, as their terms are limited. Today, they can say we recognize Tibet is your integral part. Next day they can easily say Tibet is not your integral part, because previous government was wrong.

In an authoritarian system, this type of behavior will seriously damage the credit and reputation of the government. They have to stick with their principles. A typical example is that Mao was a figure many generations before, but current Chinese government is still bearing the burden of his bad activities.

Thus, a good authoritarian system is trustworthier than normal democratic system due to system constraints.



Rightly said!

That's precisely the evil part of democracy.

American founders had foreseen these dangers. They called it majority tyranny or democracy faction.

Unfortunately, we see only some goodies due to democracy practice in India, but too many evil things of democracy.



Not quite right.

Impotent India lies in the fact that its vast mass is impotent. It is not that it is not militarily formidable enough. If India does not fix the condemned next generation, if India leaves its national hope and future in malnutrition and brain-damaged, (see India's damned generation: young go hungry despite economic boom - Times Online ) India will remain impotent.

India needs to overhaul its democratic system. Believe me.

India doesn't need a Communist government, nor a Demoncratic government -- it needs a NATIONALISTIC government (but one that has good neighborly ties). But first we need to weed out those who exploit the system, weed out those who are incompetent, and weed out those who sabotage their own people. Only then, India can reconstruct itself into a model society - a great nation! :smitten:
 
.
I think Indian media are stretching their legs.

They have always operated in a sensationalist fashion. Until now, they use to stir up jingoism and Indian patriotism by using anti-Pakistan and anti-Bangladesh rhetoric.

Now, with the growing economy and Western attention, they are going after bigger game -- Australia, China.
 
.
I think Indian media are stretching their legs.

They have always operated in a sensationalist fashion. Until now, they use to stir up jingoism and Indian patriotism by using anti-Pakistan and anti-Bangladesh rhetoric.

Now, with the growing economy and Western attention, they are going after bigger game -- Australia, China.

So what did they got after that. Any thing which media says can be claimed in court for defamation i think. Dont know exact laws but this is surely the case that media can be claimed
 
.
So what did they got after that. Any thing which media says can be claimed in court for defamation i think. Dont know exact laws but this is surely the case that media can be claimed

Who's gonna sue for defamation if Indian media hypes up reports of Chinese infiltration?
 
.
Who's gonna sue for defamation if Indian media hypes up reports of Chinese infiltration?

Sir are you sure chinese infiltration never happened and indian media just making an bigger issue? Thank you.
 
.
china can't defeat india in a frontier skirmish and a national scale war against india is not worthy at all. the political leader who is stupid enough to launch such a unworthy war has not born yet.
 
.
Shorn of the myths, the realistic and appropriate policy course for India is to match Chinese military capacity by concrete action (for example, spending 7 per cent of GDP on defence) and be conciliatory in policy, attitude, and words. Or to put it bluntly, take full care of national security but work for peace and good neighbourliness. At present we are doing precisely the opposite.

(The author is a Harvard-trained economist and China scholar and has made significant contributions to promoting India-China relations since 1978. He is a former Union Law Minister.)
I was thinking... all the recent events confused my mind as to what really India will do. This article is really refreshing. India does not need to do anything. Just follow the last lines of the author.

Thus, a good authoritarian system is trustworthier than normal democratic system due to system constraints.
Government is in place to serve people according to their wishes, not to make your country look good or trustworthy in front of some foreigner's eyes. The most stupid argument I have come across in support of authoritarian system.

Impotent India lies in the fact that its vast mass is impotent.
If you call people who wish to live in peace as impotent, then you are right. The correct word might be inferiority complex.
India needs to overhaul its democratic system. Believe me.
:blah::blah:



Ohh!! now I got it. You were joking in the above lines, right?!:what:

china can't defeat india in a frontier skirmish and a national scale war against india is not worthy at all. the political leader who is stupid enough to launch such a unworthy war has not born yet.
Nice one. That is true with India also. India will never wage a war, methinks, at least in my life time. That is how responsible nations behave. They understand the fall outs of war. Also many Indians act like they want to keep the clean record India has at starting wars.
 
.
Is China cornering India?

The Chinese government’s move to increase its diplomatic and military relations with the countries bordering India is being seen as an attempt to corner the world’s largest democracy.

China has been trying hard to give further impetus to its relationship with Indian neighbours - Nepal, Myanmar, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka. Besides, it has all-weather relationship with India’s main foe – Pakistan.

China has been specifically targeting Nepal, which in past was enjoying a cordial relationship with India. However, after the Maoists won the elections and communists took over the reign of the country, Nepal is moving close to the communist China, which is trying to increase its influence on the country to check-mate India and also maintain a tight grip over Tibet.

Chinese government has sent several high level official, cultural and military delegations to Nepal in the recent past. China has offered assistance to the country in different fields including tapping of natural resources and providing military and financial assistance. After these deliberations the Nepalese government for the first time has decided to deploy border guards along its borders with India. The India-Nepal border are ‘free zones’ and have always remained peaceful.

According to political observers the growing assertiveness of India and China in Nepal is a result of the ‘quiet competition’ between the two at the regional and global level. “The kind of pressure Nepal will face from these two Asian giants in the future will partly depend on the quality of the bilateral relationship that will evolve between the two countries.”

They opine that with the support of Nepal, China can pose threat to India's regime in Northeast India. “Nepal, if desired, can easily chock up vulnerable Siliguri Corridor of Indian state of West Bengal, disabling India to maintain land contact with entire Northeast India,” they further said.

Of late there has been bitterness in India-Nepal ties and to overcome these hurdles Indian foreign secretary recently visited the Himalayan country to seek assurances from the rulers that they won’t join hands with China to corner India.

A political observer of Kashmir, Aijaz Ahmad said India and China are trying to increase their influence in Nepal in view of the fact that the country has vast water resources, which if tapped can generate 850000 Megawatts of electricity. “The two countries fully know that in future they would be facing severe energy crisis and as such are trying to out-do each other in Nepal, which has been bestowed with abundant natural resources,” he said.

Aijaz said the future wars won’t be fought on land issues but on water issues. “Experts have already warned of India-China war and India-Pakistan war on water in the future,” he said.

Apart from Nepal, China has always had friendly relations with Pakistan, which wrests claim of Indian state of Kashmir. China has been providing assistance in all fields to India and there were allegations that the communist nation helped Pakistan in its nuclear and missile programme.

The Chinese government has also provided military and financial assistance to Sri Lanka to crush the terrorism and is also providing financial aid to the military junta of Myanmar, a poor country in India’s neighbourhood. There are reports that China has set up bases close on Myanmar-India border to keep watch on the movement of Indian army.

Indian defence expert Udhay Bhaskar feels China (known as dragon) is trying to corner India. “It is increasing its influence with Indian neighbours especially Myanmar, Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka to contain India, with which it has territorial issues. India needs to pace up with diplomacy with its neighbours and make concerted efforts to check the growing Chinese influence,” he added.

The Chinese think tank in the write-up posted in International Institute for Strategic Studies has detailed a roadmap for ‘breaking up’ India. “To split India, China can support military group ULFA Indian state of Assam, back aspirations of Indian nationalities like Tamils and Nagas, encourage Bangladesh to give a push to the independence of Indian state of West Bengal, support militants in Kashmir and recovering the 90,00 square km territory in Southern Tibet,” the write up reads.
 
.
UPDATED: Chinese intrusions meet called off to cool hype - Tibetan Review

A crucial meeting of India’s highest China policy group scheduled for Sep 17, was called off to bring down the hype on incursions, reported the IANS news service Sep 16.

It was earlier reported that following a spate of reports of border intrusions by China in recent times, India’s National Security Adviser, Mr MK Narayanan, had convened a high-level meeting of top officials on Sep 17 to formulate an appropriate response to what is widely seen as Beijing's hostile posturing, said an earlier IANS report Sep 16. Cabinet Secretary KM Chandrasekhar, Defence Secretary Pradeep Kumar, Home Secretary GK Pillai and Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao were expected to attend the meeting. They were expected to be joined by the chiefs of the three armed forces and the Intelligence Bureau.

The meeting was to scrutinise the nature of the Chinese incursions and its larger ramifications on bilateral relations.

The report noted that the meeting had come after China had launched a high-profile war game, involving 50,000 troops, with the aim to improve Beijing's ability to deploy troops in Tibet whenever reinforcements are required.

The report cited a senior Indian defence official as saying that in response, the Indian Army had mobilised its troops to forwards posts in Jammu and Kashmir and along the northeastern border with Chinese occupied Tibet in an exercise named ‘Operation Alert’. The effort will go on for a month and the Army has employed about half of its strength posted along the 4,057-km-long LAC in Jammu and Kashmir, Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh in active duty, reported the Indian Express online Sep 17. However, the exercise has been described as a routine annual event carried in this time of the year before winter sets in.

The IANS report noted that although India had publicly tried to downplay the incursions as routine incidents that occur due to differences in perception about the Line of Actual Control (LAC), there were anxieties that the repeated incursions were meant to signal Beijing's hardening of stand on the border issue.

Meanwhile, Lisa Curtis of the Heritage Foundation, a US think-tank, has said China’s recent aggression on Indian border is a direct result of Beijing’s "nervousness over India's rise," according to the Indian Express online report.
 
.
China and India should cooperate in the international affairs,regarding the border issue,i 'm sure China and India will have a solution accepeted by both sides one day.

Peace is the main topic in modern world,no nation wants a big-scale war,war leads to innocent people's death,and natural's destruction,which is a harm for this globe. More deeply,the people 's heart will be hurt largely when war occurs,so i don't think the think-tanks of both nations want a war to solve any problems.

China's capital is in the north of country,which is so far from controversial border,if both gov does not accumulate the trust,and increase the so-called military power,i don't think India will win on this point,New Dehli is so near to Chinese Xizang Tibetan region. War 'll definitely bring more casuality in India.

Additionally,India has the vote-decided leadership,if a war really hurt the masses,the Indian people will use the votes to defy the gov,for China,when the senior gov has a war goal,which is thoroughly determined,when the goal is not nicely reached,there're no changes at all.


War should be off,and Chinese and Indians should find a better settlement to solve problems.

We should try and settle down everything between China and India. Because India and china on different page can lead to much bigger tensions in south asia keeping if not billions but millions of lives at stake. No one wants a war. We both are a growing economy. Some people do justify war on the grounds of reducing competetion. But if such things happens the one winning the war will not be in a state to recover for next 10 years. We have better goals ahead. we need to look towards them
 
.
…

Government is in place to serve people according to their wishes, not to make your country look good or trustworthy in front of some foreigner's eyes. The most stupid argument I have come across in support of authoritarian system.

How has your government been serving your people?

Domestically, your economic boom doesn’t help the vast poor. Your condemned generations are kept illiterate and malnutrition. Every day, 6000 children die of huger, millions suffers brain damage.

“…estimated 880 million still live on less than $2 a day, many of them in conditions worse than those found in sub-Saharan Africa.

… the percentage of underweight children under 3 in India dropped only from 52 to 46 per cent between 1992 and 2006.” India's damned generation: young go hungry despite economic boom - Times Online

Are you telling us that these are your people’s wishes? Are you sane?

Your government has blatantly added derogatory meaning to Democracy! Your politicians have relentlessly raped your “people’s will”!

If you call people who wish to live in peace as impotent, then you are right. The correct word might be inferiority complex.

:blah::blah:



Ohh!! now I got it. You were joking in the above lines, right?!:what:


Nice one. That is true with India also. India will never wage a war, methinks, at least in my life time. That is how responsible nations behave. They understand the fall outs of war. Also many Indians act like they want to keep the clean record India has at starting wars.

For 60+ years, your democratically elected government resolves no land disputes with any of your neighboring countries.

Your forwarding policy in 1962 brought you a near-disaster. Yet, your politicians, instead of learning a lesson, fan up war rhetoric among your un-educated or under-educated mass.

Frankly, even with high power magnifier in hand, no one can see any sign for a country of “never waging a war”.

Telling that India has a “clean record” of starting war is amount to fooling people that saber-rattling (as recently as a few days ago in India) is peace-loving.
 
.
How has your government been serving your people?

Domestically, your economic boom doesn’t help the vast poor. Your condemned generations are kept illiterate and malnutrition. Every day, 6000 children die of huger, millions suffers brain damage.

“…estimated 880 million still live on less than $2 a day, many of them in conditions worse than those found in sub-Saharan Africa.

… the percentage of underweight children under 3 in India dropped only from 52 to 46 per cent between 1992 and 2006.” India's damned generation: young go hungry despite economic boom - Times Online

Are you telling us that these are your people’s wishes? Are you sane?

Your government has blatantly added derogatory meaning to Democracy! Your politicians have relentlessly raped your “people’s will”!

did you get your graduation certificate at the time of your birth??
The economic boom has not arrived in one day, it took years for India to reach this stage.. and we are progressing, the problems you mentioned are been addressed and will be solved in future..

and mate stop making fool of yourself by blowing the same 'India Poor' horn again and again, every alternate post you make has the India Poor opinion... you make yourself look like an retard here.


For 60+ years, your democratically elected government resolves no land disputes with any of your neighboring countries.

Your forwarding policy in 1962 brought you a near-disaster. Yet, your politicians, instead of learning a lesson, fan up war rhetoric among your un-educated or under-educated mass.

Frankly, even with high power magnifier in hand, no one can see any sign for a country of “never waging a war”.

Telling that India has a “clean record” of starting war is amount to fooling people that saber-rattling (as recently as a few days ago in India) is peace-loving.

why take pain to write these lines.. simply write I HATE INDIA...
 
.

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom